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In my mind, Vampires are drug addicts. And, as anybody who has had experience with an addict can tell you, addicts will eventually do anything to get their fix. They will lie, steal, and some will even kill. They will probably feal bad about it, especially if it is a loved one who gets hurt, but in the end their need comes first. That is the very definition of Evil.
Politely pay people for a little blood before you get to that point.
And your needs first? That's neutral.
Defending yourself isn't evil, but you're putting yourself above your assailant.Most Creatures that eat humans aren't evil, they are TN.
If it truly is so powerful it eventually becomes an overwhelming need, then...
How much different is it then a, say, lion killing someone for food because they were really hungry?While vampires will never kill you of starvation, it will make you think you'll die, or close to it.
Though, as I've said... Payment and moderation.
And when your money runs out? How about when your going to "only take a sip" and, lost in the euphoria, you accidentally drain the person? Moderation goes out the window because, once again, they are drug addicts. A lion killing a sentiant creature for food is TN because it is not sentient and therefor does not have the mental capacity to formulate an alignment. And while "your needs first" is neutral; "your needs first no matter the cost to others" is evil.
Always thought the evil part of being undead, especially vampires and liches, was the part where lives of humans stop mattering because they're going to die before you anyway. I know elves longevity screws with this theory, but if you know Billy is going to die in three blinks what does it matter if you change it to two?
At least in Golarion, the rituals required to become a lich are unique to each lich, but all involve pretty heinous rituals or ingredients. So just the attempt would be enough to ping you toward evil. At least some liches shift back more to neutrality if given enough time and enough focus on relatively esoteric/nonharmful research.
I think with ghouls and vampires, its less about longevity and more about increasingly viewing humans and demihumans as prey/food. When a person starts becoming an object to be consumed, it's hard to worry too much about their feelings. The longevity issue just magnifies it.
And when your money runs out? How about when your going to "only take a sip" and, lost in the euphoria, you accidentally drain the person? Moderation goes out the window because, once again, they are drug addicts. A lion killing a sentiant creature for food is TN because it is not sentient and therefor does not have the mental capacity to formulate an alignment. And while "your needs first" is neutral; "your needs first no matter the cost to others" is evil.
In my mind, Vampires are drug addicts. And, as anybody who has had experience with an addict can tell you, addicts will eventually do anything to get their fix. They will lie, steal, and some will even kill. They will probably feal bad about it, especially if it is a loved one who gets hurt, but in the end their need comes first. That is the very definition of Evil.
Politely pay people for a little blood before you get to that point.
And your needs first? That's neutral.
Defending yourself isn't evil, but you're putting yourself above your assailant.Most Creatures that eat humans aren't evil, they are TN.
If it truly is so powerful it eventually becomes an overwhelming need, then...
How much different is it then a, say, lion killing someone for food because they were really hungry?While vampires will never kill you of starvation, it will make you think you'll die, or close to it.
Though, as I've said... Payment and moderation.
When the money runs out?
Well, work- do work, for more blood.Don't drain them directly. Syringes.
A good person wouldn't let themselves get lost in this. Careful planning.
And even someone who was evil in the first place knows the value of acting good, so you don't, you know, get killed.
Heck, being evil, is just plain stupid, because it will get you killed.
Besides. There are people, not many, but people, that get off drugs.
And, you know, PF has additive substances and mechanics for them.
I don't expect you to change your mind, by the way.
I don't even know why I talk on these forms.
Channeling Negative Energy is ALWAYS an Evil act, no matter what the reason/purpose is.Citation, please.
There probably isn't an in depth Pathfinder citation, it's simply a holdover mindset from 3rd edition. I think that it is still our best fall back for Good/Evil actions though.
"Book of Vile Darkness -Animating the Dead or Creating Undead (page 8)
Unliving corpses - corrupt mockeries of life and purity - are inherently evil. Creating them is one of the most heinous crimes against the world a character can commit. Even if commanded to do something good, undead invariably bring negative energy to the world, which makes it a darker and more evil place."
But if we are even discussing 3ed. content (only because White Necromancer being 3rd party) then we also have this contradiction:
"Libris Mortis Book of the Dead - Compassion (page 12)
Plainly, the choice to be compassionate is something most intelligent undead consider. In most cases, the event that animated a particular undead is such a transformative experience that it imprints the new undead in its image. And in almost every case, it is generated from an evil impulse or action."
Implying an undead created with good impulses and actions could still retain human compassion...
Also if you read further into Gods and Magic and Inner Sea Gods for Pathfinder you'll see that all undead dietys are evil as well. That's another holdover. No Good God would grant these powers or allow them to go unanswered for (at the scale of a town or village). Raw Negative Energy literally drains the very life from anything it touches. It kills and destroys everything.
Yes there are contradictions, yet the White Necromancer not only explicitly states that the "evil" descriptor is removed from the create undead, but that the new creature, if intelligent, takes the alignment of the caster.
Also, RAW, channeling negative energy is not an evil act. For Pathfinder, I mean.
There probably isn't an in depth Pathfinder citation, it's simply a holdover mindset from 3rd edition.Channeling Negative Energy is ALWAYS an Evil act, no matter what the reason/purpose is.Citation, please.
...in which channeling negative energy did not exist. Was inflict light wounds an evil act, too?
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Centuries of literary and horror tradition MUST be wrong because Icehawk says so. Got it.It's literary tradition with vampires that predates even Bram Stoker. That's part of the horror aspect of vampirism, that it can corrupt even the purest of souls. And only rare epic level will power can deny that aspect of the change.... until they feed.I hate the all undead are evil thing.
Paladin becomes a vampire?
Instant evil!
Reasonable human becomes a vampire?
Evil!
Ect...
Unless it's a new person, then why is the soul still there?
And if it's a new person, who didn't exactly choose to be forcibly imprisoning a soul by it's mere existence, then why must it be evil?
A vampire, using money, could easily get by simply by paying people for blood.
They could easily be beneficial members of society- but no, because you're creating a sentient being that is "always evil" and thus, isn't Sentient, due to lack of ability to choose it's actions.
Makes no sense.
They shouldn't be called sentient then.
They have no choice in their actions, and should be TN, like mindless creatures.
Well, interesting response I got from James Jacobs regarding undead on this matter:
Which Inner Sea country has the creepiest butlers: Nidal, Geb, or Ustalav?
How does Pharasma judge former good-aligned characters that were turned into undead against their will, and subsequently committed enough evil acts to warrant an evil alignment?
Nidal, on average.
As an undead creature, a soul is outside of the life-death cycle, and as such acts an unwilling undead creature performs don't impact their judgement.
A creature that becomes undead on purpose is a different story. Mostly because voluntarily becoming undead pretty much means you become evil.
So it looks like an undead creature, even one with an intelligence score, is more like an automaton with a specified set of instructions to be evil overlayed on top of the original person's mind, while their soul is stuck in a sort of limbo.
Channeling Negative Energy is ALWAYS an Evil act, no matter what the reason/purpose is.Citation, please.There probably isn't an in depth Pathfinder citation, it's simply a holdover mindset from 3rd edition. I think that it is still our best fall back for Good/Evil actions though.
"Book of Vile Darkness -Animating the Dead or Creating Undead (page 8)
Unliving corpses - corrupt mockeries of life and purity - are inherently evil. Creating them is one of the most heinous crimes against the world a character can commit. Even if commanded to do something good, undead invariably bring negative energy to the world, which makes it a darker and more evil place."But if we are even discussing 3ed. content (only because White Necromancer being 3rd party) then we also have this contradiction:
"Libris Mortis Book of the Dead - Compassion (page 12)
Plainly, the choice to be compassionate is something most intelligent undead consider. In most cases, the event that animated a particular undead is such a transformative experience that it imprints the new undead in its image. And in almost every case, it is generated from an evil impulse or action."Implying an undead created with good impulses and actions could still retain human compassion...
Also if you read further into Gods and Magic and Inner Sea Gods for Pathfinder you'll see that all undead dietys are evil as well. That's another holdover. No Good God would grant these powers or allow them to go unanswered for (at the scale of a town or village). Raw Negative Energy literally drains the very life from anything it touches. It kills and destroys everything.
You specifically said channeling negative energy was evil, not that creating undead was evil. Firstly, channeling negative energy doesn't exist in 3e so there is no precedent there. Secondly, assuming you meant channel as a synonym for use in spellcasting, none of your quotes are about use negative energy, only creating undead.
Go have a look at the plane of negative energy from manual of the planes. Tell me whether there is any evil descriptor. I think you'll find the plane, as an elemental plane, is neutral. You can't get much more convincing than that. In fact, the plane is specifically stated to be not evil, just very dangerous. The elemental plane of fire is also very dangerous - as is the positive elemental plane, for that matter.
Secondly, most spells that involve negative energy, including enervation and inflict spells, are not evil spells. This holds true even in pathfinder.
So, citation, please.
As an aside, if you had tried to argue creating undead is evil on golarion, that would be pretty straightfoward: JJ has stated this is the case, in order to keep a simpler base setting. Unfortunately the thread isn't about golarion and you talked about negative energy, not undead - which are related but different.
I once ran an entire city of undeads though slightly different than what you are seeking, you may however be inspired. This might work if the undead city is supposed to have existed or a while.
The city was created by a lich, redeemed by the adventuring group. He in turn attracted other undeads who sought redemption. This among others included a vampire and some ghouls as well as a few raised zombies.
Basically the first issues of the town wasn't what it would be in a normal town. The inhabitant didn't eat and time wasn't an issue since they had the eight hours the rest of the population used for sleeping.
The main problem however was the general population in the country as well as adventurers and clergy who didn't like having an undead mayor as neighbours.
Thus the lich came up with a plan to ensure their PR profile. It came in several parts:
-All the intelligent inhabitants became crafting items, since time were not an issues, their speed gained them some renown. Especially in the higher social layers where speed was valued. The basically undermined the market price to ensure business but without completely ruining competition. They really had no need for money since they didn't eat but didn't want to attract the ire of the commoners.
-The mindless started doing hard labour. Working in quarries, pulling cart instead of horses etc. They didn't need to sleep and fatigue wasn't a problem.
-The capable handled dangerous assignments such as cleaning sewers, treating disease in quarantine areas and gathering flotsam and jetsam.
Most of this they did for free,either via mindless zombies or simply to fill there sleepless existence. There was however one toll. The lich was pay in the corpses of the unknown, dead orphans, homeless or people who couldn't pay for a funeral. Thus they never lacked minions or feed for ghouls. Before long this nation relied almost solely on undead power
When the adventurers visited they were astonished by how accepted undead were and surprised to find undeads caring for each other. I think i had a ghoul in the process of sewing a body part back on a friend, whilst joking, when they arrived.
Any way, i know its a bit off from what you want, but someone might want to use it.
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F.Y.I. A white necromancer is a necromancer whom uses necromancy, but doesn't animate the dead. You still have a regular necromancer on your hand, just a morally gray one.
Undead are already dead, so they are automatically immune to diseases. If there's an alchemist in town, he can prepare special baths with the equivalent of chlorine. Undead nurses and doctors cannot get sick and can survive routinely aggressive disinfectant.
Your followers will, probably, still have Urgathoan followers. However, I advice that you focus on Nadira as a faith; the goddess of tragedic death and romantic tragedy. Nadira has some relations with Urgathoa since, while they do not agree on many other issues, they agree that love ought to persist in undeath.
Study up on Shelyn and Urgathoa, then mix and match to get the Nadiran faith. The worship of Urgathoa should be taboo, but not neccesarily prosecuted. Focus on the aspects that allow marriage with the undead that Urgathoa favors.
Juju are not the only creatures that can be neutral; mummies can also be neutral. So go for the middle ground; reinforce your juju zombies with mummification, but don't give them mummy rot.
Invert the expectation of a necropolis and have a biopolis instead; a city for the living. A place where the living don't have to worry about horrible diseases.
Make the juju somewhat scholarly; they have no base needs, they just have far too much time on their hands. Make them impressive artisans, trying to express their new perspectives on the world. Make them scholars dedicated to make the world a safer place for all.
Can't think of anything else.
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And when your money runs out?That's got to be the dumbest excuse I've heard yet. All humans are evil, because the must steal and murder to eat. What? You say you are a human who purchases your food? What happens when you run out of money?
Regardless, the OP (who is the GM) quite clearly does not subscribe to your personal religious/philosophical beliefs, so why are you derailing the thread with your crusade? There are plenty of other threads for arguing about alignment, go derail one of those. Or start your own.
Oops, I should probably take my own advice and stop feeding you.
At least in GolarionYa know, I'm not normally a fan of recycled responses, but this one is too obvious:
Forum Pet Peeves #14: When someone replies to a thread about something in the OP's game in the Pathfinder RPG forum (and [b]not[b] in the Golarion forum) and there is no mention of Golarion in the initial post, but the replier assumes the OP is using Golarion without modification.
I'm so glad you could take time out of your busy schedule to add nothing to this discussion at all.
Facets of Golarion are incorporated in the core rules, so it makes sense to assume some version of Golarion in someone's home game. Of course the flip side of that is that even if it's "mostly" Golarion you can't take anything for granted.
I am admittedly, not well read on Golarion, this entire campaign takes place on a hitherto unnamed continent(so far).
This is my first GM attempt, so I am trying to make it simple enough to not scare myself off.
Facets of Golarion are incorporated in the core rules, so it makes sense to assume some version of Golarion in someone's home game. Of course the flip side of that is that even if it's "mostly" Golarion you can't take anything for granted.
Except when the point of the post was asking for story-related advice, not whether his idea was mechanically Golarion Approved (tm).
...I need ideas on how to improve the feel of the village for the PCs...
is what the OP came here for, and instead it devolved into arguments about the alignment of undead and the mechanics of raising them in Golarion.
As for advice, an idea I had was make them completely ok with their condition for the most part, at least at first. They were taken from the poor child they loved so much, and he's only doing what he thinks is best. As time wears on, have them become increasingly uncomfortable with their state as a growing existential horror builds within them. What will happen to them as they continue decomposing? How will outsiders begin to treat them? Will they be overrun by undead hunters if their secret gets out? Is their only purpose now to exist for the well-being of the white necromancer? Were they ripped away from a perfect afterlife to continue the drudgery of a mortal life, except without any of the little comforts actual life brings? Ect. Hopefully those questions might help develop little hooks for your story.
Well, it isn't as if we haven't also provided the OP with plenty of feedback regarding his idea. Even if he never really considered what a Pharasma-type deity would think of such a thing, he now has a new hook for future campaign ideas. His Pharasma may take a long time to get around to this village, and by that time, his players may be ready to face a god-type enemy. It'd actually be a pretty interesting conflict as neither party would be evil, but they would have very conflicting goals.
Well as far as Pharasma being all retaliatory, isn't there a community in the Riverlands of Golarion that entirely consists of undead (ghosts if I remember), I think on either side of a bridge...? Since it does exist, why isn't Pharasma going ballistic about that, and that's canon?
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There is an entire country of undead in Geb. Pharasma's church is going to have them all eradicated someday, but it's a long war. Despite worshiping a goddess of death, they aren't suicidal. When there are a lot of undead in a small place, it can be difficult to get them all and not die in the process, possibly becoming an abomination yourself.
Facets of Golarion are incorporated in the core rules, so it makes sense to assume some version of Golarion in someone's home game. Of course the flip side of that is that even if it's "mostly" Golarion you can't take anything for granted.Except when the point of the post was asking for story-related advice, not whether his idea was mechanically Golarion Approved (tm).
...I need ideas on how to improve the feel of the village for the PCs...is what the OP came here for, and instead it devolved into arguments about the alignment of undead and the mechanics of raising them in Golarion.
As for advice, an idea I had was make them completely ok with their condition for the most part, at least at first. They were taken from the poor child they loved so much, and he's only doing what he thinks is best. As time wears on, have them become increasingly uncomfortable with their state as a growing existential horror builds within them. What will happen to them as they continue decomposing? How will outsiders begin to treat them? Will they be overrun by undead hunters if their secret gets out? Is their only purpose now to exist for the well-being of the white necromancer? Were they ripped away from a perfect afterlife to continue the drudgery of a mortal life, except without any of the little comforts actual life brings? Ect. Hopefully those questions might help develop little hooks for your story.
I love you, thank you for helping to fight the derail.
Also, there has indeed been a great deal of help from several people in this thread, including yourself.
I'm just getting loads of ideas now, and its awesome!
Wouldn't the "white necromancer" just be a juju oracle raising juju zombies that share his alignment?
The only other non-evil undead possible in the rules without going 3rd party are ghosts, and I'm not sure if a character can willingly create them within the rules (that is, there's no simple spell or procedure published for doing it--least not that I'm aware of).
If it's a small village, the oracle could have made everyone hats of disguise to make them look alive. Combined with gentle repose to keep the smell down, the village would be pretty well hidden to those without the ability to see through illusions.
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The white necromancer is third party.
May be, but it is part of Golarion that Pharasma has white necromancers; necromancers who use necromancy for anything except creating undead.
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The white necromancer is third party.May be, but it is part of Golarion that Pharasma has white necromancers; necromancers who use necromancy for anything except creating undead.
Yes except the kobold press white necromancer specifically does create undead, and they lose the evil descriptor when they do.
Pharasma would go after them as much as a lich-king.
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Okay, let me just go out and say it.
I'm the GM, my Pharasma is not bothered by this village, or the necromancy therein.
Maybe she has other plans for it, I don't know.
Can we move on from this derail now, please?
Okay, okay! Geez! No more Pharasma talk. We can take a hint.
Yeeeesh.
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So, shouldn't Sarenrae be smiting everything in that town? I mean, she hates undead, and you have undead. Undead can't be good, anyways, not unless they sparkle! This is unrealistic! Who taught you to Golarion?! YOU'RE DOING IT !
I didn't mean to start a whole thing, honest.
Evil people are naturals at concealing their nature, and I'm sure there's plenty of on topic stuff we could be supplying the OP with regarding that.
Okay, okay! Geez! No more Pharasma talk. We can take a hint.
Yeeeesh.
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So, shouldn't Sarenrae be smiting everything in that town? I mean, she hates undead, and you have undead. Undead can't be good, anyways, not unless they sparkle! This is unrealistic! Who taught you to Golarion?! YOU'RE DOING IT !
The fun police.
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As I said; use Naderi as a patron goddess; she's neutral and she approves of undeath to avoid tragedy (especially the romantic kind, though not exclusively). She also approves of suicide, so your undead would have a more nuanced view of death; it ought to be your choice whether you live or die and tragedic situations can validate tragedic choices.
There's a community of not-too-evil undead in Planescape: Torment. I don't remember the details too clearly, having not played it recently, but you might meet, for example, a zombie who has lost almost all his memories. If you can identify him, you can give him a locket with a picture of his loved one, which acts as a comfort to him.
The old Ghostwalk setting might provide some inspiration.
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Wow, interesting thread! :)
The White Necromancer was created for the Midgard setting. It's a problematic duck for the standard assumptions of Golarion.
Quick point of clarification ... the white necromancer class was definitely NOT created specifically for the Midgard setting. It was created and conceived as a setting neutral class.
The white necromancer class is from Kobold press and that class is most certainly represented in the Midgard setting, so I understand the misunderstanding, but I think the distinction is important.
I do agree that the white necromancer class might be a bit problematic in the Golarian setting, especially if played in a 100% canonical way as it pertains to undead. However, plenty of folks use homebrew worlds in which a white necromancer fits just fine, and even more folks that use Golarian can, and most certainly do, modify aspects of the setting to fit their needs. So, unless you use the Golarian setting AND are very strict about adhering to the Golarian 'rule' about non-evil undead, the white necromancer class can fit quite esily into your game.