So, after a bit of time I return to the homebrew section with an idea I'm developing.
What I'm here for is essentially ideas to help move along my sudden desire to develop this.
For this the races in setting will be core races, plus any of slew of race i have made that are not legend of Zelda related.
The general gist of the setting is the bad guys won... the heroes lost, the land is all grim dark you know the usual bad guys won scenario except this one is permanent no changing the past to save the day, no amount of wishing can save you. Essentially I'm making a land ruled by evil
I have a few idea's of my own, feel free to comment or add your own
Orcs-common, in good standing, mainly soldiers.
Elf and dwarves - they get hunted and killed on site because the orcs won and they don't like each other.
Humans- I got nothing special, they are varied as usual.
Kobolds- I really want to do something serious with them do to being kinda sick of the they suck joke that's been happening since 3.5 . Also I'm removing the stereotypical opinion people have that they're dumb, don't know how buti'll figure something out.
So I'll post more as I brain storm ideas, thanks in advance for help and let's try and avoid drow as the obvious big bad.
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I think it's worth exploring how things are different in a world where worship of the evil gods is out in the open and accepted and the role of "secret cults" is being filled by followers of good deities.
I honestly still have intentions for players to be heroes in this setting, I'm still keeping it somewhere on golarion so same gods and such. I'm thinking of having the guy in charge let's. Just call him or her in am probably going to roll a d % to determine gender later unless I get a good idea be something like a level 20 bard or something focusing on mind control, either that or a monk. I'm going to be working on a design of the kingdom and prominent practices And figures.
On another note I haven't posted it yet and it is a race in the setting but its a racial equivalent of an anime or real world homunculus if anyone thinks of a name for it other than homunculus I'm willing to listen because it's my understanding the name is already taken...
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Here's the secret though -
even if "evil" rules, it still has to rule. Even in the darkest times, no ruler may enjoy 0% unpopularity - you still need at least a cabal strong enough to rule a land.
LET US SAY THE LAWFUL EVIL CONQUER ALL - and the world is an Orwellian dystopia. If a whole world is like this, there is probably enough "oppressed masses" that they will want to rise up against the oppressors. Of course, if everyone internalizes the fact that they deserve less than the powerful - or if they are given the opportunity to rise to be an oppressor through their own ruthlessness (cough cough capitalism), then you may have a stable order, but one that offers some hope.
LET US SAY THAT THE CHAOTIC EVIL CONQUER ALL -- and the world is a Malthusian dystopia. Chaos reigns, life is brutish and short, resources are scarce. Eventually, the number of preys will dwindle so much that larger, more powerful creatures will lack sustenance... or if prey is completely wiped, the remaining predators will have no ability to quickly and reliably gather food and resources. (Not just talking about huge dragons and sheep here, I'm also talking about raiders and farming towns and such.) In this scenario, eventually, some of the predators will have to stop being chaotic to create sustainability (cough cough agricultural revolution)... unless the predators keep upping the stakes and the world is spiraling down into its own entropic destruction.
LET US SAY THAT EVIL REIGNS IN CHAOTIC AND LAWFUL PARTS EQUALLY - then you have the world everyone lives at all the time - Golarion and the real life Earth. Due to Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil not having total control, enclaves of Good, Lawfulness, Chaos and Neutrality can raise from among the zones of looser control. There will be constant fighting between CHAOTIC EVIL forces and LAWFUL EVIL forces simultaneously, so they can be pitted against each other. CHAOTIC EVIL being CHAOTIC EVIL, it will seek no temporary truce and if LAWFUL EVIL ever grants one, it will regret it.
I have different ideas for the leader of the nation which in turn will influence heavily how the rest of this turns out I'm thinking one of two things so far
Number 1- an evil celestial angel thing claiming to be a god or goddess and slowly gaining the power to become so.
Or
Number 2 - or a fanatical psychotic worshipper that is acting as an evil gods avatar.
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If bad guys won, I think you need a deeper fleshing out of the bad guys. A cunning tyrant may make access to weapons, and martial traditions extinct to eliminate threats of armed revolt or sedition. Good luck finding a chivalrous cavalier order in his kingdom!
Likewise, a "Might makes right" Barbarian king may actively encourage all to be as martial as possible, as being overthrown by a superior combattant is the way they think the world should work. Good luck finding arcane scholars in a land ruled by jocks.
How grimdark can your party handle? Will there be cannibalism and rape festivals, or is it a fascist state that just denies freedom and liberty rather than thriving on cruelty, etc...
I'd consider things like slavery to be commonplace, have butchers selling elf meat, maybe have heroes marched through the streets and suffer... depravities. Visiting emmisaries from House Thrune, or Nidal bring tributes, because you know it's bad when Hell and Kuthites acknowledge you're super evilness.
But again, evil comes in all shapes and sizes, so flesh that out, and the rest will fall into place :)
The group I usually game with, we really haven't had a chance to do anything grim dark on top of that I don't usually gm. I just started this so fleshing out will come in time, I'm honestly posting as I come up with ideas.
Slavery will be common place, as for the nation it will neither be barbarian ruled or mage ruled.
I am against the barbarian king thing, also not a fan of the wizard ruled kingdom. That's why I want a lawful evil type of villain, if I get a good enough idea chaotic evil can work to if I get an idea but its honestly my secondary option. That's why I am leaning toward the evil celestial angel monk thing (maybe just aasimar). I really want to work toward a dignified evil character, who earns and takes power making him or her an actual threat and not just a cowardly smart guy who got lucky.
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A few comments. These will tie into your bad guy, and how to make kobolds a more potent/important race. And I agree, they need more respect than they are given.
1) Your big bad guy should be a warlord of some sort, either a Fighter or Cavalier (or even a Warpriest) who worships the dominant neutral (not evil) deity that happens to be a dragon-god. As such, I'd make it a kobold, a unique variant (only one) that is bigger, stronger, and smarter than the rest of the race, and has been transformed by divine power. Think a kobold on steroids, 5 1/2 - 6 feet tall, great physical stats + good intelligence and Charisma. Maybe even giving it the half-dragon template as well.
2) Kobolds: Make them the favored race of the dominant deity, who has made them to be caretakers of dragonkind's lore, magic, etc. Thus they are given high status in the world as "the blessed children" of the Great Dragon god. As they are a 5 RP race, make them more on par with the humans and other core races.
a) Keep their stats (+2 Dex, -4 Str, -2 Con) but give them a +4 Cha, +2 Int, +2 Wis. So add two Flexible ability score modifiers (+2 Int, +2 Cha) for +2 RP and again (+2 Wis, +2 Cha) for another +2 RP. This puts them at a total of 9 RP.
b) Give them the Linguist racial quality (+1 RP) for a total of 10 RP.
c) Others to consider are Lucky (lesser) defensive racial trait (+2 RP), Arcane Focus magical racial trait (+1 RP), Magical Linguist magical racial trait (+2 RP), or look at the races current alternate racial trats and grant one or two as standard traits.
This way you make them more on par with humans, elves, and dwarves (RP 10-12 or so).
3) Make the Kobolds the eyes and ears and special shock troops of the BBEG, sort of like the uruk-hai are for Saruman or Nazghul for Sauron in LOTR. But, also have some of them be the leaders/instigators of the small rebellion that is rising up. If they've been granted enhanced intelligence and wisdom, then there should be those who can really see where things are headed and the that they are really enslaved to their leader and deity.
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I can see kobolds getting a variant of the tiefling's Fiendish Sorcery racial feature, but applying to the Draconic bloodline.
Also, I've had a lot of fun with alchemist kobolds ruling over warrior and rogue kobolds. Give them some Teamwork feats, like Swap Places, and cheap potions of cure light wounds. Take a hit, swap with a healthy ally, drink your potion. Rinse, repeat. Also, lots of cheap alchemical items for general mayhem.
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The greatest Evil, and the one most likely to make for a stable power base is the universal constant.
Bureaucracy.
For a small taste of what I mean, see Supernatural's version of Hell after Crowley took over.
No more burning lava pits and torture chambers. Because while those are highly unpleasant and painful, they are also at the least INTERESTING.
No, Hell is a queue. You wait your turn, shuffling forward at a pace that would make snails weep.
And when, millenia from now, you reach the end...time to loop back to the start!
The setting doesn't need to be "grimdark" to be ruled by evil. No. Everything is regimented, controlled.
Everything is so buried in red tape that Good has no room to survive. The only people who make it in this world are those cunning enough to exploit the system, or ruthless enough to live outside of it.
The true evil is when the Evil Emperor is the lesser evil.
You have a choice: Live in civilization, with all the order that implies (even though that order squeezes the peasants dry and power means you don't have to care about "lesser" lives), or live among the outcasts, who lack even that basic humanity.
I think going for a "sinister six"-setup might be interesting: you have your BBEG that "rules" the land, and then you have his allies;
a mixed bunch of the most powerful evil sons of mamas left after the dust settled.
None of them can overpower the others, they all have their own agenda, but the BBEG is either powerful enough that the others respect/fear him, or he has somehow tricked them into allying with him.
this means that:
Number 1- an evil celestial angel thing claiming to be a god or goddess and slowly gaining the power to become so.Or
Number 2 - or a fanatical psychotic worshipper that is acting as an evil gods avatar
-are both good options, and that you can add more as you play.
think of your nation less as a country and more of a pathwork empire, with borders between the different factions.examples: in the north the crazy warrior-king "insert name here" rules the barbarian tribes, his rule is dedicated to the blood god of slaughter and war and he is at the best unstable. He wears a cursed guantlet that allows the fallen angel to control him through pain and pleasure. it's less of a alliance then a ceasefire, if any of the other rulers need his help they send an envoy, preferrably one they won't miss.
it also allows for wildly different forms of evil from location to location;
this place is a wasteland with evil necromancers studying to find a way to kill the gods and doing grotesque experiments.
that place is an overgrown wilderness ruled by a druid/green dragon alliance, entering with out invitation is a death sentence as you get lost and hunted by everything that lives in the vast forest.
these guys are religious nutters, those guys are assasins, that gang is a brutish mercenary group of monsterous races that serve as a hired "neutral" (HAH!) policeforce in all of the empire etc.
what if evil won because the hero him/herself strayed to the darkness? i thought about doing something simliar with the darkborn prestige class from lrgg's tome of twisted.
I'm trying right now to figure out reasoning and goals for the villain, ones that don't involve just evil.
For example I've been tinkering with the idea of the main big bad having a small shard of the star stone partly explaining his or her power.
I have come up with an idea that involves the crazy fanatical guy from before. He is an Oracle, of some evil god who is convinced that the lawful evil big bad is said god and although psychotically crazy follows the big bad loyally.
The nation itself might end up being a meritocracy. My logic with this is it is a lot easier t be stronger when your evil than it is to be good.
The big bad will keep the nation in generally good condition, but will be strict and unwavering and basically kill anyone who gets in his or her way. Any would be heroes issueing challenges. Those probably will be accepted and easily crushed. I'm thinking I'll keep it at the point where people still have hope, but understand that it could be crushed at any point.
Basically the kingdom runs and works but if you want something you must be strong enough to take it, this encourages a survival of the fittest mentality.
Kobolds I want to keep there same way but play up there intelligence- which is why I've been thinking of having them be part of some secret spy police force thing. Gathering data, reporting directly to the big bad.
As for other gods I want to emphasize that many people in this kingdom would start viewing the big bad as a god. This also gives some players a reason to even be here it is my understanding some gods might not link a mortal claiming to be one of them as such might send a champion to stop them, those champions do not have a good track record of winning.
A hero straying from darkness is actually one of the characters on the big bads team. By the way the big bad has a team of all people who help her come to power.
One of which is a fallen hero, in following his code of honor she twisted and manipulated him so that in order to keep said honor he must defend and protect her. He isn't magically controlled or anything, and still believes that said big bad can be redeemed and turn good which is why he refuses to challenge said big bad.
Well a meritocracy is basically a form of government where the strong flourish and the weak suffer . Merit in this case meaning whose better at the job? The guy over there working his ass off just to pass or the prodigy who can do so without breaking a sweat.
Operating in this manner consider it like this you can't get much better at fighting and killing than orcs so they have a big place as soldiers
Kobolds are easy to make submit and as a plus they are intelligent and sneaky
With this type of society developing where orcs are the military backbone being given free reign to do as they wish so long as they don't oppose the big bad's over arcing goals then things like hunting dwarves and elves there mortal enemies suddenly becomes this natural thing.
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Look for Midnight Campaign Setting. It's a fantasy setting to 3.0/3.5 where the Evil God managed to corrupt the four champions and conquer the human kingdoms about a hundred years ago. The kingdoms of men are ruled by evil priests and orc legions while the elven realm and dwarven underground cities struggle to maintain their independence.
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Midnight is actually what inspired this , I'm in the process of reading it actually.
That does remind me of a point I was going to mention that the big bad always gives would be heroes the chance to serve her after mentally breaking them of course. If they continue to resist they are sent to the Colosseum where she fights them in full view of everyone, she givesthem a fighting chance but usually stomps them. (I'm thinking like esdeath from akame ga kill, I just finished watching it ) in essence she is supposed to be very confident in her abilities and understands that there will always be would be heroes that will try and oppose her plans, she fights them to show that it doesn't matter how strong they become, they can never do anything more than break even.
That's what I said who so ever is better gets the job.
That's the thing its not how the world everyone is used to works , I'm not dressing everything up to be completely bad as everything be shit wouldn't realistically serve anyones needs. In the world most people believe if you work hard enough you'll get rewarded, they place the needs of the strong over those of the weak.
Basically things aren't going to be fair which is in essence the evil part.
That's what I've been saying, jobs are being taken by those who can do them better. This country enforces the rules and laws that if your better you get the job, this rule forces those who are better to continually work hard as well.
And besides the need of the weak don't matter here really is a thing I'm trying to establish.
Its forcing people to be selfish and focus on their own need versus the needs of others, now I am done with this debate you will receive no more responses on the subject I've made my decisions that this is how the nations works .
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If I may interject here, I think what the OP is saying is that this is one of those "the weak are being put under the heels of the strong" deals.
The government in Heinlein's Starship Troopers was a meritocracy...
If any other examples are needed.
Exactly, what I'm saying referring to green smashomancer
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came in expecting a fist of the northstar campaign ah well guess I will say it...
You're already dead
If I may interject here, I think what the OP is saying is that this is one of those "the weak are being put under the heels of the strong" deals.Main problem I have is that he seems to be defining "being better at the job" as 'the strong' and being worse at the job as 'the weak' so that if you give the job to the person who is better at it its some sort of oppression.
I
It kind of becomes oppression when you consider that those in charge can use this power and control to further themselves and their allies and then exert this power over those they dislike.The society encourages opportunistic behavior, betrayal, and subjugation in order to advance , all of which are pretty evil things when an entire nation does it.
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What I have done with kobolds in my home games for the last 15 years or so is this. Kobolds in game represent more or less the least dangerous foes that PCs game face, more or less. Rather than die in droves when they ambush, many have ceased hostilities and maintain a truce of sorts with whatever communities they live near. Some earn money in and around towns taking less than desirable jobs, scavaging, and trading.
With humans, dwarves, and elves on the decline in your world, who will orcs and hobgoblins turn to for cheap labor in their mines? Kobolds of course! Those little bastards are talented at is, work for cheap, and can fit into small places. Since goblins are gone, kobolds probably maintain the sewers as well.
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My best advice is that your setting should legalize murder.
If there's no legal consequences for murdering somebody, then that means there'll be two kinds of people in your world-- those who fear getting killed on the street, and those who take advantage of this new freedom.
The first group will primarily be the good-aligned. They'll either be afraid to leave their homes, or will make every effort to dissuade others from killing them, by kowtowing to whoever looks stronger then them, or by intimidation tactics. And intimidation tactics won't work forever once people start realizing that the person in question never actually follows through with his threats.
The second group will be the evil-aligned. They'll have no qualms about killing whoever they don't like. If they're strong, they'll just crack the heads of whoever gives them any trouble and dare the others to stop them. If they're weak, then they're more likely to submit or flee, then sneak back later and catch their enemies unaware, or hire goons to do the dirty work for them. This means that the first group will eventually learn that they can't always assume that the meek and submissive aren't murderers, and will have to fear them too.
This helps create a culture of fear and oppression without Evil Overlords having to "maintain" it. If everybody learns to fear each other, the genuinely good will feel oppressed, isolated, and hopeless while the evil enjoy newfound freedom. It'll also be that much harder for revolutionary groups to form (or any kind of independent organization) since everyone's been taught to distrust each other.
Well you see the world isn't destroyed, just this one nation. Your racial ideas are really good, I didn't think to use drow in that way.
I should probably give some background as to what happened to cause this nation to fall.
The original heroes lost, but were not killed that's an important part.
The big bad finds a shard of of some god like power (I'm looking more into the star stone for this one) and basically uses it. The big bad instead of trying to kill the heroes plays there weaknesses against them, tricks and manipulated the honor bound knight, helps the angsty one kill the demterminator hero, and drives the mage into virtual irrecoverable insanity.
I also did not know that elf meat is an orcish delicacy.
Could legalizing murder actually work? As an idea I like it but it seems as though it wouldn't work.
What I have done with kobolds in my home games for the last 15 years or so is this. Kobolds in game represent more or less the least dangerous foes that PCs game face, more or less. Rather than die in droves when they ambush, many have ceased hostilities and maintain a truce of sorts with whatever communities they live near. Some earn money in and around towns taking less than desirable jobs, scavaging, and trading.
With humans, dwarves, and elves on the decline in your world, who will orcs and hobgoblins turn to for cheap labor in their mines? Kobolds of course! Those little bastards are talented at is, work for cheap, and can fit into small places. Since goblins are gone, kobolds probably maintain the sewers as well.
I was considering the idea of kobolds as a sort of secret police, they're small good at hiding and running, I figure having the big bad use them as an information network would work. To further suppress rebellions .
This sounds like a new take on the Midnight campaign setting. And there's nothing wrong with that.
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Well a meritocracy is basically a form of government where the strong flourish and the weak suffer . Merit in this case meaning whose better at the job? The guy over there working his ass off just to pass or the prodigy who can do so without breaking a sweat.So you should hand out jobs on a basis OTHER than who actually contributes the most productivity doing them? Wonderful recipe for everyone suffering.
"Well, Bill is a better tactician than Joe, but nope, we wouldn't want to put him in charge of the military, THAT wouldn't be fair!"
Much like anything, a meritocracy can go very, very wrong.
Benevolent meritocracy: Best person for the job gets the job. Your social standing rises based on your worth and talent. Everyone holds their place in society and can't really gripe about it. All you need is a valuable skill to raise your standing.
Malevolent meritocracy: Your worth is your ONLY value. Leads to a lot of "You have failed me for the last time..." scenarios and Klingon promotions (after all, if the second best guy kills the best guy, doesn't that make him the best guy?).
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Could legalizing murder actually work? As an idea I like it but it seems as though it wouldn't work.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "work."
From a logistic standpoint, it'd be easy. All the law enforcement has to do is not spend any time or effort tracking down or punishing murderers (unless they're also wanted for an actual crime, like tax evasion).
From a world-building standpoint, it's a little more nuanced than that.
-Tavern brawls tend to go south much more easily, and probably break out more often.
-Lots of two-faced people who'll tell you anything you want just to keep themselves alive.
-Lots of bullies who'll happily walk all over everybody they meet and kill whoever calls them out on it.
-The PCs never have to worry about excessive murderhoboing... or murdering hobos I suppose.
This also plays well into your desire to make kobolds more relevant. They may be physically weak, but they've got no issues with killing, and make excellent assassins. Those that don't become assassins might be a major economic force, as they offer their goods and services to mercenaries in exchange for "protection" that's really more like "here's my hit list, you know what to do". Indeed, once the PCs gain notoriety, a kobold merchant caravan might offer them some choice magic items in exchange for some of this "protection".
It doesn't matter anymore actually you've kind of answered my question, I kind of meant what benefit would there be to allowing murder to be an allowed thing
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The general gist of the setting is the bad guys won...
Something like this. I wonder, are you planning on letting the heroes win, or will it be like Council of Thieves
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If you're talking about the "You've already lost" scenario being confined to a limited number of nations instead of a whole world, several nations on Golarion already fit the bill:
Bachuan (the Communist variety)
Cheliax (the Lawful Evil variety; a de facto Infernal Worldwound in all but name)
The Darklands, including but not limited to the Duergar and Drow sectors (the classic Underdark variety)
Galt (nominally Chaotic Neutral, but in practice seems to be Chaotic Evil, as proof that Humans don't need Demons to create a Chaotic Evil dystopia)
Geb (the Zombie Apocalypse arisen to nationhood)
Irrisen (the most Neutral Evil variety you're going to get in the absence of a Daemonic Worldwound)
Nidal (the Lawful Evil variety, Cenobite Edition)
Razmiran (the Evil Wizard variety)
Parts of Ustalav (more Zombie Apocalypse)
The Worldwound (the Chaotic Evil variety, classic edition with Demons)
In times long past: the Thassilonian Empire: seven dystopias in one. If the scenario comes to pass linked in this thread, Golarion will have a Thassilon 2.0.
Several other nations (including Katapesh and Rahadoum) have extensive slavery systems, and thus at least partially qualify.
For that matter, large regions of modern Earth qualify at least partially, and some qualify completely . . . .