I think it would result in both characters returning to their bodies, each of whom are probably hidden in minimus containment, probably in equipment protected total concealment. The two magic jarred creatures would then go at it, and the opponents creature may well stand a chance against the bandersnatch.
Risky.
---
I've been waffling about on my last ability, as I'm not sure how best to improve the Magic situation. It's a toss up right now between 'Enhance Magic Items', and Transfer Magic (both Trickster)
On one hand, one makes scroll magic less susceptible to Abjuration, while the other would let me steal, say, a widened Aroden Spellbane off of a sim holding a meta-magic rod. Forever. Among other personal spells I otherwise couldn't grab.
I'm leaning toward the latter. Thoughts?
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I think I'll recollect my build notes and updates in my next post to make this easier to track.
If the magic jar is from a legendary item, it won't be suppressed by the anti magic since legendary items are considered artifacts.
Now you can wear the magic bane bandersnatch forever. :)
The item might not be suppressed, but the spell sure as hell will be since being generated by an Artifact grants no special protection. And even then the artifact doesn't cast the spells, it allows it's wielder to.
why has the mythic fighter vs wizard fight turned into a magic jar fight? not that i'm complaining but it seems it's now fight of the monsters.
Yeah, legendary item spellcasting yields its function to the wielder. To be clear, the artifact's ability is functioning the entire time: you always have access to the SLAs... you just cant use them in the AMF, and active spells from those SLAs are likewise suppressed.
Its not really a magic jar fight. We are just both exploiting the spell to get better stats, immunities and abilities. In an unsurprising note: as soon as one person does it, the other one loses a lot of staying power by nobly declining.
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N Adaptable Luck Halfling Mutation Warrior Fighter 20 MT 10, Magic Jar into Simulacrum of Guardian Dragon.
Str 38 + 5 (Wishes) + 6 (Item) + 6 (alchemical) + 2 (profane) = 57
Dex 13 + 5 (Wishes) + 6 (Item) + 8 (alchemical) + 4 (profane) = 36
Con 30 + 5 (Wishes) + 6 (Item) + 4 (alchemical) = 45
Int 13 + 5 (Wishes) + 6 (Item) = 24
Wis 13 + 5 (Wishes) + 6 (Item) = 24
Cha 18 + 5 (Wishes) + 6 (Item) + 5 (level) + 10 (mythic) = 46
Mythic Abilities:
Tier 1 Legendary Item (Undetectable, Foe Biting, Intelligent)
Tier 2 Limitless Range
Tier 3 Vanishing Move
Tier 4 Divine Source (Protection Domain, Luck Domain)
Tier 5 Punishing Blow
Tier 6 Path Dabbling (Cage Enemy)
Tier 7 Divine Source (Trickery, Heroism Sub, Construct Sub)
Tier 8 Legendary Item - (spellcasting, teleport, spellcasting)
Tier 9 Transfer Magic
Tier 10 Legendary Item (Unstoppable Strike, Everlasting, spellcasting spellcasting)
Legendary Item Spellcasting (Summoner) : Magic Jar+Alarm, Simulacrum, Simulacrum, Greater Teleport
Mythic Feats:
Tier 1 Dual Path (Champion)
Tier 3 Mythic Paragon
Tier 5 Mythic Spellcasting
Tier 7 Vital Strike
Tier 9 Spellbreaker
Regular Feats (21 Total, no more than 10 can be non-combat):
Arcane Strike (pre-req from SLAs)
Deadly Aim
Point-Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Far Shot
Vital Strike
Improved Vital Strike
Greater Vital Strike
Devastating Strike
Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Specialization
Combat Reflexes
Disruptive
Spellbreaker
Noble Scion (Scion of War)
??? Improved Initiative
Craft Wondrous Items
Craft Magical Arms and Armor
Items:
+5 Dispelling Burst Cyclonic Distance Adaptive Composite Longbow + Perm Shrink Item - 209540 GP
+4 Courageous Dueling Runeforged (Compassionate) Gauntlet + Perm Shrink Item - 124516 GP
Ring of Freedom of Movement - 40000 GP - ring
Ring of Invisibility - 20000 GP - ring
Belt of perfect physical stats 144000 GP - Belt
Vest of Stable Mutation - 20000 GP - Chest
Gloves of Dueling - 15000 GP - Hands
Circlet of Persuasion - 4500 GP - Head
Headband of perfect mental stats 144000 GP - Headband
Cloak of Etherealness - 55000 GP - Shoulders
Greater Bracers of Archery 25000 GP - Wrist
Wand of Gravity Bow (CL 5) (50 charges) - 3750 GP
1x Scroll of Wish - 28825 GP
Scroll of Spellbane -- no longer needed. See transfer Magic.
Bead of Karma 20000 GP
+1 CL Ioun Stone 30000 GP
+1 comp to checks/saves/attack rolls ioun 30000 GP
Efficient Quiver - 1800 GP
Luckstone - 20000 GP
Banner of the Ancient Kings - 18000 GP
Rod of Greater Widen Spell - 121500 GP
Working Total : 1075431. Possible Total = 880000x1.5 = 1320000
Have some play for more items.
Active Spells:
- M. Heroism
- M. Anticipate Peril (15)
- Moment of Greatness
- Widened Aroden's Spellbane (??? - don't know optimal yet)
---
As written, with only M. Heroism
+20 (BAB) + 13 (DEX) + 6 (Weapon Training+Glove) + 5 (enh) + 2 (competence from bracers) - 4 (size) + 2 (weapon focus) + 6(M. Heroism) = 50
This is made against flat-footed Touch AC with an expenditure of 1 MP as a free action (Unstoppable Strike). In reality, this will probably be 2 MP to also overcome Deflection bonus from Nereid's Grace.
My range increment is 1100 ft. I'll probably run out of vision distance before to-hit (visible target) at range becomes an issue
Blindsight at 120 ft.
Gargantuan Bow does 4d6 => on Vital strike, roll 16d6 + 16 x damage modifier
My base damage modifier is : 23 (STR) + 6 (weapon train+gloves) + 6 (devastating strike) + 4 (w. spec and gr w spec) + 5 (enh) + 1 (comp - gr bracers) + 6 (M. Heroism) = 51.
That's only with Heroism, no deadly aim or arcane strike.
51 * 16 = 816. I can double this with Foe Biting to 1632.
- I can get up to 3 10 ft radius emanations widened by sims and take them via Transfer Magic. I will no longer need to worry about peaking out of Spellbane.
....
Without considering M. Improved Intitiative, with the stuff written, gives
+ 18 (CHA)
+ 3 (circlet of persuasion)
+ 10 (Amazing Initiative)
+ 4 (Improved Init)
+ 15 (M. Anticipate Peril - sim of M. Gr Wyrm Red Dragon)
+ 4 (+4 Courageous Dueling Gauntlet on my Vestigial Arm)
+ 6 (mor - M Heroism + Courageous)
+ 6 (Moment of Greatness)
+ 2 (ins - compassionate weapon)
+ 3 (Adaptable Luck + Fortune's Favored Trait)
+ 4 (circ - Banner of the Ancient Kings)
+ 1 (comp - ioun)
+ 2 (reactionary)
---- 78 Init + 1d20 + 1d12 (Can re-roll the 1d20 once if I am unsatisfied by the result, and think a better roll could be had -- Force of Will)
---
I am of two minds regarding the two questionable things mentioned previously.
It could be the case that the developers meant the reader to narrow down in M. Spellbreaker to realize that it was only talking about how spells/SLAs generally don't provoke. However, as it is written, it says it provokes "even if the creature wouldn't normally provoke attacks of opportunity." There is no focusing language. You have drawn the reasonably logical interpretation of how we would both probably run this in a real game. However, as written, is that what it says?
Really, as it is written, not even Total Cover gives you protection. I will assume, however, that I'd at least have to see you, and have a line of effect, in order to activate the ability.
Likewise, Magic Jar:
As written, you keep natural abilities and automatic abilities. The only thing that creates feats are hit dice, and you end up with approximately half HD (thus feats) in a simulacrum. Those feats are naturally inherent to the creature. It further says: you lose all spells and SLAs. It pretty much implies that the entirety of Ex and Su abilities stay with the body -- but cannot be activated if they are not automatically always on.
Thus, M. Improved Initiative is a candidate: the basic bonus is always on. I could not, however, activate the auto-20 aspect of the Feat.
I don't like it, but that doesn't mean that isn't how its written. Ive changed the Init above to reflect the lower possible value.
why has the mythic fighter vs wizard fight turned into a magic jar fight? not that i'm complaining but it seems it's now fight of the monsters.
It always was.
"If you are correct then you would get AoO when I have total cover, am invis mindblanked or time stopped."
That is similar to the sort of shocked disbelief that preceded the clarification on Undetectable.
Who's to say that a character with M. Spellbreaker and a bow is not extremely, abnormally -impossibly- good at stopping spells within a 30 ft radius? Why? Because Mythic.
I know that this isn't evidence for deduction, but it can stand for induction.
Regular cover, on the more reasonable side, is less shocking to believe: I have Improved Precise Shot, which negates the numerical penalty for regular cover. So if I can see you, could shoot you if I had my turn, it's not a huge leap to say that it could provoke an AoO.
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You would need 50, as you've shown, to overtake completely. Unless I missed a +10 somewhere in the description. That, and 60+26 = 86, which is only 8 off of my current score.
On re-reading, I realize you might have misinterpreted Amazing Initiative to be the bonus from the dragon. It's actually an automatic thing all mythic heroes get. Also, that bonus is supposed to be +12, not +10, because of M. Paragon.
So my base is now +80, +1d20 +1d12
To be clear, 80 is Init while omitting the thing I'm reasonably sure I would get from the body-inherent feat.
Now that I am actively trying to win Init, I think I may have something that will work a bit better than my initially proposed strategy.
I switched out Magic Domain with Trickery Domain.
Time Stop will be one of the Mythic Spells from Mythic Spellcasting.
That will give me 24+ hours to leisurely walk over to your side of the arena, have a casual look around the 100x100x100 ft area, find you, and set up the killing area.
I could cast it at a lower level, if needed, if my irreplaceable buff spells would run out too early. Do spell durations continue running during the apparent time?
---
So, I ready an action to cast Augmented Mythic Time Stop when the wall falls.
I position myself next to you, finding you without error because you were pigeon holed into a starting area you couldn't leave.
I don't know if I could find you if you weren't constrained to a starting location... not sure how large of an area I could cover in 24 hours with flight and a 1000 ft radius that I could use geometric rules to sweep with (especially if I have to cover more than the material plane)
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You would get the M. Imp. Init. bonus if you were in the Creature's body. However, as it is tied to the actual creature's make up, you would lose it if you polymorphed away (as I lost keen sight when I moved from Half-Elf to Guardian Dragon). That is why I don't think it is exactly a wash (your getting a huge DEX bonus by going from Gargantuan to Diminuitive)... plus, there aren't a lot of MR 10 creatures, and fewer would allow you to cast spells easily.
I don't know if Adaptable Luck is tied to Halfling or not. I might need to lose 1 initiative point from Luck (I still have the Luckstone)
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Yeah, Imp. Precise Shot does not help. I mentioned it as it goes to show that the cover is doing virtually nothing for you other than providing a reason for you not to 'normally provoke' an attack of opportunity.
Hmm. Gaseous form (or similar ilk)? I don't see anything specific in either the glossary entry or in the spell description.
A gaseous creature can't run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet and automatically succeeds on all Fly skill checks. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists. The creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can't enter water or other liquid. It also can't manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot.
• Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.
• Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).
• Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures that use blindsight.
• Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.
• Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.
• Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.
The Guardian's blindsight makes no mention of what sense provides its Blindsight ability, so I'd guess you'd be visible?
The fact that you could still be hit with a real (though magic) sword indicates that you'd have some possibility of being detected.
You could be ethereal, but I bought the cloak of etherealness.
I'd probably need some way to get into the Astral Plane (Wish scroll, I guess).
Only those two planes are available, and we were told to remain within the bounds of the arena (so we don't have 3-d infinite space to visit in these planes, and the godly force likely persists into the other planes or it would be worthless)
There's no stealth bonus for going gaseous, so you aren't invisible or anything. You probably look like a very out of place cloud of white or purple or something smoke or something.
===Aelryinth
I need either alot of init that can just copy, a form that can take a hit, or form that blindsight can not find.
Give a bit to look for something.
There is a trickster ability that makes it possible to use stealth against blindsense.
He's looking for things on the non-mythic wizard.
I forget who the wizard and who the fighter is here. It seems the only way the fighter to win is to become a wizard.
Yeah, I'm not gonna pretend that I like what I needed to do to get to this point. Question is, can a regular wizard be designed that can defeat this guy given the initial parameters? No need to stick to your base assumptions, if you can find something that specifically works against this. I would prefer to nail this down as far as possible before moving on to trying to reduce the fighter's capability.
Can the parameters be restated. I skipped to the end once I saw how much behind I was.
The majority of it is discussed in the first post of a much smaller thread by andreww a while back.
Several rule options have been discussed, some with more success than others.
While Mathius and I have been avoiding using Simulacra in the arena, it is technically allowed
Two spellbanes that overlap and are configured to cancel each other do exactly that.
I think outsiders have been allowed to be targeted by Magic Jar, though that is a point of contention.
I believe M. Spellbreaker is not allowed to get an AoO when you have cover (to be conservative)
-- probably more? I cant think of things off the top of my head, but we have allowed some of the most painfully RAW readings in this, so if you can logic something out we're generally all ears.
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Have you ever found something while doing a min-max exploration and then hated yourself after? As we are using them, Simulacrums keep their abilities. Notice the Guardian Dragon Heroic Challenge ability.
That's a free couple of Mythic Ranks to whoever wants them (I'd go for the Agile template, myself -- +20 init, and you have two sets of actions per round). You can take it yourself, while I need it placed on the creature I'm going into with Mind Jar. I will no longer be able to be a mythic base creature, but that didn't really matter at this point.
It ends up as a wash, more or less.
I can never rely on anything that only works on non-mythic opponents.
There is a trickster ability that makes it possible to use stealth against blindsense.I need either alot of init that can just copy, a form that can take a hit, or form that blindsight can not find.
Give a bit to look for something.
Feats work too.
Dampen Presence + Conceal Scent + Hellcat Stealth + Hide In Plain Sight / Shadow Well (Can get from Improved Eldritch Heritage) make a stealth based character damn near impossible to find.
Even true-seeing is foiled by basic stealth, no Invisibility or Mind Blank or even Nondetection required.
I'd rather see that then "I have a super-powerful item that makes me undetectable, so there." This isn't Wizard vs Mythic Fighter. Currently, this is Wizard vs Mythic Artifact with some Mythic Spellcasting sprinkled in.
Somebody even suggested the Fighter using a Save or Die on the Wizard. What is the point of this competition if the only way the Fighter can beat the Wizard is to be a better Wizard?
Possibly because the other Save or Dies from martial types tend to be crit based or full attacks, and its very, very easy to guard against crits and full attacks. Spells just have more approach vectors.
I will also note you're cleaving to the normal double standard. If the wizard were to magic jar into a beastie and use it to inflict 1000 damage to the fighter in melee combat, I suspect you'd have no problem with it.
But the fighter turning around and using magic to kill the wizard is highly inappropriate?
==Aelryinth
I'm reasonably sure that every bit of magic I have is in direct opposition to the opponent's possible tactics. Ill go ahead and summarize:
Invisible + Undetectable = cannot be found via any senses or scrying -- needed in the case the opponent has many helpers on the field.
Mindblank = Plans cannot be divined. If they could, I will always walk into *many* AoE spells that affect me.
Flight = wont be on the ground to immediately perish to original Explosive Runes Strategy
Aroden's Spellbane = knock out opponent's Spellbane/Antimagic, protect against stray Mage's Disjunction.
M. Heightened Awareness, M Heroism, Moment of Greatness = Required to stand chance at winning Initiative.
Magic Jar = Originally, was a method to free up mythic abilities from sleepless, mythic sight, and a mythic Blind Fight feat. Later, developed into a method to better enhance more aspects of the character. Blindsight/Equivalent was needed to remove Mirror Image Defense, while not sleeping is needed to always be invisible.
Simulacrum = Method to completely ignore WBL during the leading week (which the other character does as well). Will also be helpful during fights in which Simulacra are allowed.
Time Stop = Method to prevent the immediate fleeing of the opponent, which would be, by some metrics, a draw.
Cloak of Etherealness = Method to prevent the fleeing of the opponent into the ethereal plane.
Scroll of Wish : travel to the Astral Plane when the other two planes are ruled out.
M Limited Wish : Needed for the utility... last I recall this nets me M. Ricochet Shot to wreck Wizard/Familiar with one shot (otherwise familiar can get both away and perform some resurrection elsewhere).
---
I have more options, but I've only introduced spells that were needed to counter things that would otherwise negate the strategy.
Unsurprisingly, the most contentious are Magic Jar and Simulacrum. Right? As we have them, its pretty hard for them not to be a matter of distaste.
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I don't really need a save or die attack/spell. I have a standard action *die* attack called Mythic Vital Strike. The opponent could then reform, somehow. That would almost certainly leave him vulnerable, though
Possibly because the other Save or Dies from martial types tend to be crit based or full attacks, and its very, very easy to guard against crits and full attacks. Spells just have more approach vectors.
I will also note you're cleaving to the normal double standard. If the wizard were to magic jar into a beastie and use it to inflict 1000 damage to the fighter in melee combat, I suspect you'd have no problem with it.
But the fighter turning around and using magic to kill the wizard is highly inappropriate?
==Aelryinth
I disagree unless said caster is pulling out a beat stick to hand your butt to you. Majic jar or Polymorph has always been wizardy thing to do.
I disagree unless said caster is pulling out a beat stick to hand your butt to you. Majic jar or Polymorph has always been wizardy thing to do.Possibly because the other Save or Dies from martial types tend to be crit based or full attacks, and its very, very easy to guard against crits and full attacks. Spells just have more approach vectors.
I will also note you're cleaving to the normal double standard. If the wizard were to magic jar into a beastie and use it to inflict 1000 damage to the fighter in melee combat, I suspect you'd have no problem with it.
But the fighter turning around and using magic to kill the wizard is highly inappropriate?
==Aelryinth
IT's still melee combat. It's one reason why 'the wizard can take the fighter's shtick, but the fighter isn't allowed to take the wizard's shtick'.
It's a double standard. A very OLD and widespread double standard.
==Aelryinth
*Sigh*
No, it is not.
The wizard being able to transform into a beast and participate in martial combat is fair game. It's a long-established trope of the mage trope.
The fighter being able to transform into a wizard and compete in arcane spellslinging is not fair game. It flat out doesn't make sense, and more importantly it's completely counter-intuitive to the class. The guy who is all about martial combat, weapons training and bonus feats can only compete with a wizard... By turning into one. More importantly, he shouldn't have to. The fighter should get abilities (either directly or indirectly) allowing him to compete on an equal level with a spellcaster.
The reason why these arguments keep popping up and why people are unhappy with the fighter (and the rogue and to a lesser degree the other non-casters) is that they should be able to compete in a high level environment without turning into pseudo-casters. As it stands right now, they can't.
From my limited experience with the system I think Mythic was a good attempt to solve this, but using mythic rules means that the spellcaster probably has access to mythic as well... Which is supercharges spellcasters.
I disagree unless said caster is pulling out a beat stick to hand your butt to you. Majic jar or Polymorph has always been wizardy thing to do.Possibly because the other Save or Dies from martial types tend to be crit based or full attacks, and its very, very easy to guard against crits and full attacks. Spells just have more approach vectors.
I will also note you're cleaving to the normal double standard. If the wizard were to magic jar into a beastie and use it to inflict 1000 damage to the fighter in melee combat, I suspect you'd have no problem with it.
But the fighter turning around and using magic to kill the wizard is highly inappropriate?
==Aelryinth
IT's still melee combat. It's one reason why 'the wizard can take the fighter's shtick, but the fighter isn't allowed to take the wizard's shtick'.
It's a double standard. A very OLD and widespread double standard.
==Aelryinth
Isn't that the thing though? Wizards are allowed to rewrite the rules of the universe and the proper order of things.
Isn't that the thing though? Wizards are allowed to rewrite the rules of the universe and the proper order of things.I disagree unless said caster is pulling out a beat stick to hand your butt to you. Majic jar or Polymorph has always been wizardy thing to do.Possibly because the other Save or Dies from martial types tend to be crit based or full attacks, and its very, very easy to guard against crits and full attacks. Spells just have more approach vectors.
I will also note you're cleaving to the normal double standard. If the wizard were to magic jar into a beastie and use it to inflict 1000 damage to the fighter in melee combat, I suspect you'd have no problem with it.
But the fighter turning around and using magic to kill the wizard is highly inappropriate?
==Aelryinth
IT's still melee combat. It's one reason why 'the wizard can take the fighter's shtick, but the fighter isn't allowed to take the wizard's shtick'.
It's a double standard. A very OLD and widespread double standard.
==Aelryinth
Fighters are only allowed to bash things.
It may be a bit like how Jedi are just better than everyone else in the Star Wars universe.
That doesn't mean people like Han Solo can't be useful.
The issue in PF is that the casters are not only able, but generally more knowledgeable about all things than the mundanes. Does the mundane have great piloting skills? Wizard can teleport or bind water elementals to make a piece of wood a better faster ship than any well crewed galleon.
The game really hammers home the idea of, "be magic or get magic". The only true difference between high level fighters and wizards is how they use magic not whether or not they use magic. Wizards tend to be better at using magic and thus are considered better.
Possibly because the other Save or Dies from martial types tend to be crit based or full attacks, and its very, very easy to guard against crits and full attacks. Spells just have more approach vectors.
I will also note you're cleaving to the normal double standard. If the wizard were to magic jar into a beastie and use it to inflict 1000 damage to the fighter in melee combat, I suspect you'd have no problem with it.
But the fighter turning around and using magic to kill the wizard is highly inappropriate?
==Aelryinth
I highly doubt a monster exists that a properly built mythic fighter couldn't hack and slash his way through. In fact, people were just discussing the very possibility of such a fighter OHKO'ing any monster a wizard tries to hide in with Mythic Vital Strike.
That said, I don't mind buffing spells/abilities or even counter abjurations like Spellbane. It's when the fighter's entire strategy turns into copying the general expected behaviour of a wizard (save or sucks, minionmancy, etc) that I get ever so slightly annoyed.
On another note though, I've been trying to find a way to get around the whole Wish + Geas thing, so what do people think of using a Clear Spindle slotted into a Wayfinder? It's resonant power protects the user from charms and compulsions, but it says "... (as protection from evil)." Would that mean it only works on an evil caster's spells, or is it just referencing the item's mechanics?
So, I know that you all are basing your point on the history of this discussion in past threads of the board. This particular thread was based on the premise (from original post)
So say there's a typical lvl 20 wizard (or cleric), and a typical lvl 20 fighter. If they fought to the death, I think we all know who would win (spoiler alert: it's not the fighter). So my question is: how many mythic levels do you think the fighter would need before you considered it a fair fight? And what if they're both, say, 16th level? 12th? Discuss!
I used the most exploitable tactics I could to get to a point where victory was practically assured. Now that we're here, as long as the current set is undefeatable, I plan on ratcheting back what I can.
Note that the OP doesn't ask us to maintain fighter/wizard lines in this discussion. It would have been nice to do that, but I started with the presumption that any set of mythic things would answer the question.
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Spellbreaker still helps, it just takes more MP. I have 23 to spend in total, but I'm reasonably sure I'm not near this upper limit yet (haven't tracked, but I don't do a lot by myself before the match)
I did not have the agile template applied. I'm thinking of either the Mu Spore or the Abyss Gigas. Not sure which yet.
Remember, you can't base immediate actions (like EFS) on my attacks. Trickster only goes after flat footed, all the time.
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Mathius, not sure if this makes a difference on your end, but arguably you could get two templates: one on you, that goes with your soul, and one on the creature you Magic Jar.
Just trying to be fully representative here. You'd still only counts as MR 2 in each template though.
We'll both need another binding to carry around the Source Guardian Dragon.
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You'll note the strategy discussion ends around the time I figure out where the opponent is. With the limitation of no sims on either side, we have both more or less acknowledged that my Bow capability (and few abjurations) will immediately end strategy discussion at that point.
Has anyone considered auto crit yet?
So, I know that you all are basing your point on the history of this discussion in past threads of the board. This particular thread was based on the premise (from original post)
So say there's a typical lvl 20 wizard (or cleric), and a typical lvl 20 fighter. If they fought to the death, I think we all know who would win (spoiler alert: it's not the fighter). So my question is: how many mythic levels do you think the fighter would need before you considered it a fair fight? And what if they're both, say, 16th level? 12th? Discuss!I used the most exploitable tactics I could to get to a point where victory was practically assured. Now that we're here, as long as the current set is undefeatable, I plan on ratcheting back what I can.
Note that the OP doesn't ask us to maintain fighter/wizard lines in this discussion. It would have been nice to do that, but I started with the presumption that any set of mythic things would answer the question.
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Spellbreaker still helps, it just takes more MP. I have 23 to spend in total, but I'm reasonably sure I'm not near this upper limit yet (haven't tracked, but I don't do a lot by myself before the match)
I did not have the agile template applied. I'm thinking of either the Mu Spore or the Abyss Gigas. Not sure which yet.
Remember, you can't base immediate actions (like EFS) on my attacks. Trickster only goes after flat footed, all the time.
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Mathius, not sure if this makes a difference on your end, but arguably you could get two templates: one on you, that goes with your soul, and one on the creature you Magic Jar.
Just trying to be fully representative here. You'd still only counts as MR 2 in each template though.
We'll both need another binding to carry around the Source Guardian Dragon.
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You'll note the strategy discussion ends around the time I figure out where the opponent is. With the limitation of no sims on either side, we have both more or less acknowledged that my Bow capability...
This is only if we assume no simulacrums. With Simulacrums, I have yet to see anything that will help you beat my build. Hence my lack of contribution.
It would take you a full round action to possess something (including your own body), during which I might be able to find the place where you are hidden. You'd have to be in a regular type bag (no crossing planar boundaries), and as soon as you vanish from the body, possible mind blank/non-detection not specifically linked to the item are lost.
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Anzyr, I had a side discussion with you concerning simulacra that ended back on the 8th without any real conclusion.
If you had a ton of buddies who were not invisible/mind-blanked, I could pick them off from a distance probably faster than you could produce them per day (unless you can reliably get ~700 per day).
I could also have my own friends (up to six) join me in Mythic Timestop to go around and place Disjunctions just before the Time Stop ends. As long as they stayed next to threats with Spellbanes cancelling Spellbanes, these Disjunctions would be guaranteed. If they get you, that would be pretty bad news, but probably not irrecoverable -- but you would be vulnerable for a while.
I recall your posted build had telepathic bonds, so it was not under the effects of Mind Blank. Thus, I may legitimately claim to have known where that particular build was (but not generally all builds, I'm aware). Unfortunately, relying on Magic Jar as a defense when you are invisible/mind-blanked is less handy when you cant be assured your minion will remove you from the pouch you are in when/if your current host is destroyed (which is one of several reasons I assume you had telepathic bond)
Furthermore, you made repeated claims to being able I find my fighter, though your method was never made clear. It is difficult to design a reliable strategy if you are unwilling to explain your method (even if it is beyond obvious to you)
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Remember a few days ago when we dismissed Mythic Wish as a possibility?
Turns out, both sides have access to it: Any Non-Mythic creature (with wish SLA) + Guardian Dragon = Non_Mythic Creature (with wish) + Divine/Arcane Mythic Spellcasting (cast mythic versions of spells known 3/day)
Furthermore, you made repeated claims to being able I find my fighter, though your method was never made clear. It is difficult to design a reliable strategy if you are unwilling to explain your method (even if it is beyond obvious to you)
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I think the tactic was simulacra carpet bomb area with invisibility purges and some darkness spell that also staggers and causes damage or some such. Honestly beyond my level of system mastery.
You know mythic timestop can stop time for hours making it almost impossible to hide from mythic fighter. I think?
Furthermore, you made repeated claims to being able I find my fighter, though your method was never made clear. It is difficult to design a reliable strategy if you are unwilling to explain your method (even if it is beyond obvious to you)
...I think the tactic was simulacra carpet bomb area with invisibility purges and some darkness spell that also staggers and causes damage or some such. Honestly beyond my level of system mastery.
You know mythic timestop can stop time for hours making it almost impossible to hide from mythic fighter. I think?
It's not about hiding. In fact, considering I don't die when my body does and my Simulacrums can act just fine while I'm hanging out in my body, it might be convenient to not hide. And you will either eventually trip an invisibility purge or attack. Either way I only need a very general location to end the fight. Keep in mind once my Harbinger Daemon body dies and I possess a new one, the Fighter is essentially playing a shell game to find which one is me. And really with the number of Simulacrums, the only viable option for the mythic Fighter is hiding. Which will give me time to add to their ranks.
If only the fighter had the dimensional agility feat line, then he could shoot and teleport away easy.
Ya, that's the problem with putting your stats down on a sheet. We can see that the Fighter in question doesn't have it.
My question is 'how general' of an area suffices to be able to enact your strategy? How do you get the general location? What is the strategy? If you can show me that I cant factor in enough components in the design, then the question is answered in the wizards favor. But you still have to explain the method (seeing as I do not understand the generalities that you are claiming)
If I destroy simulacra faster than you produce them, then the shell game becomes less random. If your buddies make motions to take out your various jars, they provide data on which beings to target next.
How do I eventually trigger invisibility purge? If my range is somewhere between 1000-5000 ft (depending on how far I can be away while still being within visibility/hit distance) how are you guaranteed to get me with one?
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Dimensional agility could only get me so far anyway. If all you need is a general location, that *shouldn't* matter.
Because I simply have so very many Simulacrums that having those with Invisibility Purge up teleport in a half decent formation will make you visible. The Tzitzimitls can each cover a 60 ft. Radius with Deeper Darkness, which is guaranteed damage + stagger from Eclipse. And I have a *lot* of these. Furthermore, Solars will be dropping Totems at your vague location (each of which is also a 60 ft. Radius) which while not instagibbing you with STR damage (thanks to guardian dragon) will still gut your defenses (all of them) with no save and almost certainly weaken and slow you.
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I believe the MInd Buttressing armor enhancement stops compulsions and charms, and is not restricted to Evil magic.
==Aelryinth