Contributor
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In fact - if you love trees - you should print off everything and waste more paper. Virtually all paper in the develped world comes from tree farms - so if you use up more paper - they'll actually plant MORE trees in order to supply the increased paper demand. (There are actually more trees in the US now than a century ago due to tree farms etc.)
Yeah, I've never understood the supposed ecological argument either. Books (and paper character sheets) are made out of trees, and trees are easy to make. Heck, here in the eastern USA, if you don't do anything to a spot on the ground, odds are pretty good that a tree's going to just kind of show up and grow on it. PDFs and the machines they ride around in are made out of derivatives and byproducts of fossil fuels like plastics and electricity. Fossil fuels are pretty hard to make.
Anyway, I'm all for tablet gaming even if I don't do it myself (yet). But you can be sure that even if I ever adopt the practice I'll still be hauling around my carefully organized physical Chronicle Sheets and Inventory Tracking Sheets.
There are, to paraphrase Kipling, nine and sixty ways of constructing character sheets, and every single one of them is right. So long as both the player and GM can easily view and understand them.
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That last thread wasn't locked due to subject matter, per se. It got pretty nasty along the way. I haven't seen that tone here (yet).
I have a dog in this race. Last time I played at a LGS, I had forgotten to print my sheet. I store all character details in my Paizo profiles (since I do a lot of play-by-post as well). So I just accessed that via my phone. My GM had no problem with it. But if campaign leadership is not OK with it, I would like to know.
Character audits should not be viewed as this supremely negative thing. In theory you should expect it of every GM at every game.
I do taxes for a living. I don't file a return that I feel will not stand up under audit or review by the IRS. Sure, very few are audited or reviewed, but almost EVERY tax return is spot-checked by the IRS computers. And I can't tell them "that's what the computer put down". I need to be able to figure out where every number came from if it's challenged.
Sorry to get a bit off this thread's topic, but the point is, to me, that each player should attempt to have a legal and accurate character "sheet" at every game, that stands up to review. I have only done sheet audits a few times. Mostly it's to learn about the PC's and double check to see if they have shorted themselves on ability scores and skill points. I usually ask for a description of how they arrive at their largest bonus. Most are proud to tell me how they twinked out their PC. There's no need to make it adversarial.
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I fully intend to go to this con with my characters ready to go in Hero Lab, with a PDF copy ready to print out. If I have a GM that's so obtuse as to insist I use paper, I will go back to my hotel room, pick up my little inkjet printer, bring it back to the table and print it out directly from Hero Lab.
I have verified that I own book or PDF copies of all materials I'm using with my characters and I will have copies of all my chronicle sheets with me.
I apologize if I came across as confrontational, I was just a bit flabbergasted that in this day and age someone would be so vehemently against technology. I understand it's just a tool, but I see it as a useful one and if push came to shove could easily run a copy of my characters from paper.
Oh ... I also always use "real" dice. Rather large ones. I once had a player who would roll tiny little d20's and then quickly pick them up to read off the result to the table. He would roll an inordinate amount of high-teen numbers ... and for some strange reason he'd leave the dice on the table if he rolled a nat 20. My solution was to claim my eyesight was bad and said he if wanted to play he had to use my very-large-easy-to-see-across-the-table dice.
He stopped rolling a statistically improbable number of high-teens on his D20's
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I'm no luddite by any means, but electronic character sheets do cause a couple of minor headaches when I'm GMing and want to check something about one of the PCs. This is almost always for something game-related (to check a save/skill bonus without the player knowing exactly what I'm doing, or to see if a monster can smell the food in their pack, etc.) rather than to do an audit as such.
- I don't like handling other people's expensive electronic equipment, especially if it's on a cluttered table, maybe even with power leads connected, in case I damage it.
- Most paper character sheets are broadly similar and easy to look over, while software can be less intuitive (I've not used the ipad version of Hero Lab for example), and may need the player to 'drive' the program to the right tab/window/list.
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For what it is worth, as long as I can clearly read whatever you store your character records on (and they are accurate, of course), I don't really care how you keep them. It's all good by me.
I still enjoy Pathfinder and PFS, but it does have some fairly tight paper trail requirements compared to many other living campaigns at this time. One thing I am very much enjoying about DnD 5e Adventure League right now is not having to carry a crap ton of books with me simply because I enjoy extensive character building and do not own pdfs.
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I've GMed for the OP many times and have never had a problem with Hero Lab or other non-paper references for characters.
Overall, if someone is intentionally cheating at Pathfinder Society, they have bigger problems with their life than I'm going to waste my time on trying to rein in. Do I really want to bother with, or actually care about, checking that everyone at the table spent the extra 2000 gold to enchant their cold iron longsword? Big bowl of nope. I didn't get into this game to play Tax Audit Society or fulfill my own power trip about who I let play for what reason. Obviously, if someone is blatantly cheating and it's crapping on the table, then that's when to address it.
That's up to and including whether someone uses paper or electronic character sheets. All I ask is that players can reference their stats and abilities in a timely manner and not slow down the table trying to find out if they have that +1 trait bonus to underwater basket weaving that probably isn't going to make a difference in their success or failure. And that can be a slow process whether someone has a paper or electronic character sheet, so for me, it's really about players knowing how to play their characters. If I can get roll totals from players without a lot of hemming and hawing, then who cares what they are using to get those numbers from?
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I'm going to a con this weekend and for the first time I'm hoping to be 100% paper free, I.E. have all my characters on just my laptop using Hero Lab and/or PDFs. I'll of course have all my chronicle sheets on paper and with me, but I'm wondering if there's any esoteric rules that state a player has to have a paper sheet, or that a GM can require one?
thanks
FAQd
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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For what it is worth, as long as I can clearly read whatever you store your character records on (and they are accurate, of course), I don't really care how you keep them. It's all good by me.
I believe this is how it should be.
I believe this is how most GMs treat it.
But, especially for those planning on attending major Cons, it is important to know if that's the way it actually is.
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I'm going to a con this weekend and for the first time I'm hoping to be 100% paper free, I.E. have all my characters on just my laptop using Hero Lab and/or PDFs. I'll of course have all my chronicle sheets on paper and with me, but I'm wondering if there's any esoteric rules that state a player has to have a paper sheet, or that a GM can require one?
thanks
Also ... as a piece of advice:
DO NOT click new character in Hero Lab and then decide to open your character. For some reason it erases your character. Then you'll wish you had a paper sheet. Since it will impossible to rebuild your character just before a game that starts in 5 minutes.
I keep up copies of all character in dropbox and google drive.
But yes, it really sucks to have something happen to your files just before a game. I made the mistake up updating Herolab just before a game and it started crashing until I uninstalled and reinstalled. Which wiped the characters I had on that device.
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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
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Chris Mortika made that point before, there are many people who´s handwriting is just a mess. Some of those are also very special at keeping documents or organizing them, but still want to play more complicated characters with lots of attacks/buffs/stuff.
You make the investment to buy the books and herolab, be welcome to use both. Just stick by the rules, meaning own what you play and have the legal resources at hand if necessary.
As written in the guide if you play at a table, please bring printed chronicles. It´s fair to bring copies of the chroncles and not carry around the originals i guess.
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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I don't understand the point of requiring physical chronicles, especially if copies are acceptable. Apparently it is, or will be, the rule, but what's the advantage?Chris Mortika made that point before, there are many people who´s handwriting is just a mess. Some of those are also very special at keeping documents or organizing them, but still want to play more complicated characters with lots of attacks/buffs/stuff.
You make the investment to buy the books and herolab, be welcome to use both. Just stick by the rules, meaning own what you play and have the legal resources at hand if necessary.
As written in the guide if you play at a table, please bring printed chronicles. It´s fair to bring copies of the chroncles and not carry around the originals i guess.
If you have a boon on a sheet that is required to be crossed off when used, it's hard for the GM to do so if it's on your tablet.
Physical sheets are required. As a GM, I'm not comfortable with someone handing me their tablet. What if I drop it by accident and it breaks? Am I going to be required to replace it or pay for repairs? We don't want GMs to come under that sort of pressure.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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...Crap.
EDIT: This seems inconsistent with the legality of non-paper Additional Resources. My understanding has been (perhaps incorrectly?) that I could bring a tablet with PDFs of rulebooks on it, without there having ever been an issue with the aforementioned "GMs might drop it" thing. Why is it different for character sheets?
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Chrons I can see. Character sheets? Not really. I'll echo Jiggy's sentiments. If I'm using my tablet for my books, then I'm using my tablet for my character also. If I'm using my hardcopy books, then I'm probably using a paper sheet.
And when the GM asks to take a look at your character sheet, you hand him your tablet, and as he is looking over it, he accidentally drops it, and spider web cracks cover the screen. Are you ok with the GM not paying for repairs, especially since a new screen will cost $120-$180?
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Contributor
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Well, there's the answer the thread was looking for.
Or at least the answer to the question, if not the one I'd hoped for.
Well, to be sure, he didn't say anything about the use of tablets or laptops or anything else, just that physical sheets are also required. Since maintaining and presenting ones physical Chronicles has always been a requirement (nobody seems to be contesting that point), this seems to me just a matter of, as others have said upthread, simply printing out two or three more sheets from whatever program you're using and having them in the folder and ready to present if needed.
Doesn't seem like that onerous a requirement to me.
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Chrons I can see. Character sheets? Not really. I'll echo Jiggy's sentiments. If I'm using my tablet for my books, then I'm using my tablet for my character also. If I'm using my hardcopy books, then I'm probably using a paper sheet.And when the GM asks to take a look at your character sheet, you hand him your tablet, and as he is looking over it, he accidentally drops it, and spider web cracks cover the screen. Are you ok with the GM not paying for repairs?
If we replace character sheet with additional resource, why does it make a difference?
Should I disallow electronic versions of Paizo books? Only when they are on tablets?
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Should I disallow electronic versions of Paizo books?
Since they're specifically permitted by the Guide? No.
EDIT:The use of electronic sources for AR alleviates a LOT of the complaints registered due to the need to carry all of your resources. I see a world of difference in requiring someone to carry half a dozen hard back books to a convention than a half a dozen extra pieces of paper...
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Chrons I can see. Character sheets? Not really. I'll echo Jiggy's sentiments. If I'm using my tablet for my books, then I'm using my tablet for my character also. If I'm using my hardcopy books, then I'm probably using a paper sheet.And when the GM asks to take a look at your character sheet, you hand him your tablet, and as he is looking over it, he accidentally drops it, and spider web cracks cover the screen. Are you ok with the GM not paying for repairs?If we replace character sheet with additional resource, why does it make a difference?
Should I disallow electronic versions of Paizo books?
I don't want GMs placed in a position to have to handle anyone's several hundred dollar electronic device.
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I don't want GMs placed in a position to have to handle anyone's several hundred dollar electronic device.Chrons I can see. Character sheets? Not really. I'll echo Jiggy's sentiments. If I'm using my tablet for my books, then I'm using my tablet for my character also. If I'm using my hardcopy books, then I'm probably using a paper sheet.And when the GM asks to take a look at your character sheet, you hand him your tablet, and as he is looking over it, he accidentally drops it, and spider web cracks cover the screen. Are you ok with the GM not paying for repairs?If we replace character sheet with additional resource, why does it make a difference?
Should I disallow electronic versions of Paizo books?
The GM can get up and walk around the table to the Player's seat and look it over. The player can get up with their device and bring it to the GM's chair. In either case the device can sit on the table. The player can even scroll/touch it so the GM doesn't have to.
Your reasoning here, to me, is just strange.
-Skeld
EDIT: I don't PFS in public (or in home games really), so I don't have a dog in this fight.
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Well, there's the answer the thread was looking for.
Or at least the answer to the question, if not the one I'd hoped for.
Well, to be sure, he didn't say anything about the use of tablets or laptops or anything else, just that physical sheets are also required. Since maintaining and presenting ones physical Chronicles has always been a requirement (nobody seems to be contesting that point), this seems to me just a matter of, as others have said upthread, simply printing out two or three more sheets from whatever program you're using and having them in the folder and ready to present if needed.
Doesn't seem like that onerous a requirement to me.
See if you're at a convention, how do you print an updated character if you're using herolabs? Or will it be required to manually fill in a blank sheet?
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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I don't want GMs placed in a position to have to handle anyone's several hundred dollar electronic device.Chrons I can see. Character sheets? Not really. I'll echo Jiggy's sentiments. If I'm using my tablet for my books, then I'm using my tablet for my character also. If I'm using my hardcopy books, then I'm probably using a paper sheet.And when the GM asks to take a look at your character sheet, you hand him your tablet, and as he is looking over it, he accidentally drops it, and spider web cracks cover the screen. Are you ok with the GM not paying for repairs?If we replace character sheet with additional resource, why does it make a difference?
Should I disallow electronic versions of Paizo books?
The GM can get up and walk around the table to the Player's seat and look it over. The player can get up with their device and bring it to the GM's chair. In either case the device can sit on the table. The player can even scroll/touch it so the GM doesn't have to.
Your reasoning here, to me, is just strange.
-Skeld
My last reply on this subject. A clarification was requested and given.
People always talk about games taking too long. Does this add time to the game being played? What if a person is disabled? We can go back and forth with what could and couldn't happen. If an electronic device is broken by someone not the owner (tablet, laptop, etc...), the owner is going to expect the other person to repair or replace it. I'm not going to support a ruling where that could happen.
The request for clarification has been made.
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See if you're at a convention, how do you print an updated character if you're using herolabs? Or will it be required to manually fill in a blank sheet?Well, there's the answer the thread was looking for.
Or at least the answer to the question, if not the one I'd hoped for.
Well, to be sure, he didn't say anything about the use of tablets or laptops or anything else, just that physical sheets are also required. Since maintaining and presenting ones physical Chronicles has always been a requirement (nobody seems to be contesting that point), this seems to me just a matter of, as others have said upthread, simply printing out two or three more sheets from whatever program you're using and having them in the folder and ready to present if needed.
Doesn't seem like that onerous a requirement to me.
How many things actually change significantly? You take a pen or pencil to a convention don't you? If not, ask the GM he/she probably has one to loan you...
I use Hero Lab occasionally, and print out the characters and update on the fly...
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Second, I have had players come to the table with only an iPad, with the books and sources they needed in watermarked .pdfs. That's fine with me - less clutter at the table. But, if I audit that character and find you don't have with you any of the additional resources that your character needs, then no, that character isn't going to be played at that table.
I know you've obviously sat at more tables than I have. But I've also never seen a GM audit my character in my area (also your area). The only time I've had a GM look at my sheet is when he was looking for a specific item that had implications within the scenario.
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Contributor
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See if you're at a convention, how do you print an updated character if you're using herolabs? Or will it be required to manually fill in a blank sheet?
That's certainly one solution. Manually updating your printout with a pen or pencil is another. Printing out new sheets at your hotel's business center or at a copy shop is a third option (that's what I did last time this happened to me at GenCon). A simple two-page character sheet like those provided in the Guide doesn't take that long to fill out legibly and completely, I don't think. It has the added benefit, for me at least, of prompting me to think about the changes to my character that have happened via the leveling up process, something I ruefully admit I sometimes rush through when it's just a matter of clicking a couple of boxes and choosing an item or two from a dropdown menu. But I'm losing the thread, here. In answer to your question, it seems to me there are a number of fair and easy ways around that problem.
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Second, I have had players come to the table with only an iPad, with the books and sources they needed in watermarked .pdfs. That's fine with me - less clutter at the table. But, if I audit that character and find you don't have with you any of the additional resources that your character needs, then no, that character isn't going to be played at that table.I know you've obviously sat at more tables than I have. But I've also never seen a GM audit my character in my area (also your area). The only time I've had a GM look at my sheet is when he was looking for a specific item that had implications within the scenario.
Hmm...well, I know I've audited some of the tables I've run in the Indy area...though it's been a few months now.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I think the point is the additional resources are fine as PDFs as long as they are watermarked. However Character sheets are better as physical things that can be handed around.
I find myself handing GMs rules sources far more often than I find myself handing them my character sheet.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I don't not understand why some in this thread wish for a ruling to reverse a decision that makes things easier for all of the gamers. (regarding additional resources)
Nobody's wanting the Additional Resources ruling reversed. Rather, they/we are wanting the rule for character sheets to match it.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Dang. The hassle of paper character sheets is the whole reason I went to the trouble of creating an Excel sheet that I could use at the table. I'm not sure I even have time to "get legal" for my next game...
If you can print a copy of that character sheet to keep with you, it shouldn't be a problem. Mike didn't say you couldn't use electronic character sheets. Just that the GM can require you to have a printed one if he so chooses. So far I haven't run into anyone (except online) that has that requirement.
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People, you're missing the "spirit" of this (and many other) discussions. Stop trying to one-up each other. There is nothing wrong with electronic devices, nor is there anything wrong with strictly paper. The issue is having some consideration for the other person, be it the GM or player, and having a solution that works for both without burdening either or the other players at the table. When you force a discussion like this to Brock's level, he has to make a ruling that becomes binding. Remember that in the future before you escalate an issue. You may not like the ruling he makes.
Table variation certainly spurs the largest amount of discussion, and often the most passionate, but its also one of the strengths or our campaign in that it allows a tiny bit of freedom to customize the gaming experience to suit your individual eccentricities. Embrace it before its gone. :-D
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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People, you're missing the "spirit" of this (and many other) discussions. Stop trying to one-up each other. There is nothing wrong with electronic devices, nor is there anything wrong with strictly paper. The issue is having some consideration for the other person, be it the GM or player, and having a solution that works for both without burdening either or the other players at the table. When you force a discussion like this to Brock's level, he has to make a ruling that becomes binding. Remember that in the future before you escalate an issue. You may not like the ruling he makes.
Table variation certainly spurs the largest amount of discussion, and often the most passionate, but its also one of the strengths or our campaign in that it allows a tiny bit of freedom to customize the gaming experience to suit your individual eccentricities. Embrace it before its gone. :-D
Honestly, folks, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm getting pretty darn tired of Bob's nearly-infallible common sense and reason. :D