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I'm going to a con this weekend and for the first time I'm hoping to be 100% paper free, I.E. have all my characters on just my laptop using Hero Lab and/or PDFs. I'll of course have all my chronicle sheets on paper and with me, but I'm wondering if there's any esoteric rules that state a player has to have a paper sheet, or that a GM can require one?
thanks
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The character sheet has to be something that the GM can look at, in detail, at any time. If you're not willing to hand over your tablet, then bring a paper sheet. It's possible a GM will ask to see a paper sheet, and although the rules are pretty much silent on the matter, if the GM asks it's easier to just hand them a sheet than to fight about it, no?
You need the Chronicles anyway, so what is one more sheet added to that?
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I can't speak for everyone, but nobody's complained so far about my paperless characters. I take up less table space (slightly), have my buffs automatically calculated instead of needing to tally them with each roll so there's less time spent on math each turn, and since I built my Excel character sheet from scratch, I can answer any questions about where my numbers come from and whatnot.
Went to GenCon paperless (aside from ITS/chronicles) and had no issues.
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technically the rules say you have to have/keep your chronicle sheet yes...
per page 35 in PFS guide = "Chronicle sheets record everything that a Pathfinder
Society character does over the course of her career
and serves as the official record of each character in the
campaign"
I am a pretty by the rules sorta guy.. but as long as you can pull up your info on tablet and can show them its would be ok with me.. you still need to keep them and keep record of gold spent,fame and all that good stuff... you could scan them into pdf and keep a folder of them on your tablet..
There is at least one GM who will boot you from his table for using HeroLabs.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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There is at least one GM who willboot you from his table for using HeroLabsaudit characters that are running entirely from HeroLab. When he's done so in the past, it has always resulted in discovering the character to be illegal.
Accuracy'd that for you.
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Honestly, since that whole "Herolab is evil" thread, I've been hoping for an official answer to the the OP's question.
I'm not worried about having my Chronicles/ITS/sources in a row. I would however like to know that when I go to GenCon this year, if I happen to sit down at a table with someone with a Herolab grudge, they can't boot me for having no paper character sheet. Or if they can that would be nice to know too.
Apparently there are anti-Hero Lab GMs out there. I would just be prepared with a blank sheet to change it over if you get that kind of vibe.
Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
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Personally I have a HL character sheet stuck in the folder with all my chronicles and inventory tracking sheet. If you have printed off chronicles what's the harm in 1-4 more pages for a character (and animal companion/eidolon). I rarely pull the character out of the folder, but I'm ready (including having books) if I run into a gm who wants to audit me. For the books I have a lot on pdf (I love pdf dicsount weeks) and a lot of those non-electronic kind.
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Ive only come down once on a player that didnt have a Paper character sheet and that was only because his Ipad ran out of juice about an hour into the game. Nobody there had a charger and I wasnt willing to suspend the game for him to drive 40 minutes home to get his.
Jokingly before the game I had actually said 'That thing is fully charged right?, to which the response was 'Yeah' (obviously a lie).
So when it keeled over and stopped working, the guy had no Chronicle sheets or Character sheet. I asked him to leave the game as I had no pregens on me.
I personally use Herolab but always print out the Herolab character sheet. Always.
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I'm wondering if there's any esoteric rules that state a player has to have a paper sheet, or that a GM can require one?
No - the rules allow you to use electronic-everything.
Usually, a GM is able to forbid you to play at their table for any reason they like - they can't be "forced to GM", just like you're not "forced to play".
Having said that, when you're at a con, there's a sort of unspoken expectation that GMs don't refuse any reasonable player, because they should be GMing to keep players going at the event. Having everything recorded electronically should qualify for that.
Matthew Pittard's case is the exception rather than the rule. I'm pretty keen on allowing as much electronic stuff as possible into the game, but I wouldn't fault him for a moment for booting that player once he no longer had a character there.
There is at least one GM who willAccuracy'd that for you.boot you from his table for using HeroLabsaudit characters that are running entirely from HeroLab. When he's done so in the past, it has always resulted in discovering the character to be illegal.
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I'm wondering if there's any esoteric rules that state a player has to have a paper sheet, or that a GM can require one?No - the rules allow you to use electronic-everything.
Usually, a GM is able to forbid you to play at their table for any reason they like - they can't be "forced to GM", just like you're not "forced to play".
Having said that, when you're at a con, there's a sort of unspoken expectation that GMs don't refuse any reasonable player, because they should be GMing to keep players going at the event. Having everything recorded electronically should qualify for that.
Matthew Pittard's case is the exception rather than the rule. I'm pretty keen on allowing as much electronic stuff as possible into the game, but I wouldn't fault him for a moment for booting that player once he no longer had a character there.
Actually, no. At a public event a GM is not allowed to boot you for any reason. He may only boot disruptive players.
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I'm going to a con this weekend and for the first time I'm hoping to be 100% paper free, I.E. have all my characters on just my laptop using Hero Lab and/or PDFs. I'll of course have all my chronicle sheets on paper and with me, but I'm wondering if there's any esoteric rules that state a player has to have a paper sheet, or that a GM can require one?
thanks
Also ... as a piece of advice:
DO NOT click new character in Hero Lab and then decide to open your character. For some reason it erases your character. Then you'll wish you had a paper sheet. Since it will impossible to rebuild your character just before a game that starts in 5 minutes.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Actually, no. At a public event a GM is not allowed to boot you for any reason. He may only boot disruptive players.
Galahad, you have asserted this before. I believe you are mistaken, but I'd be glad to be corrected.
I have in the past "booted" players because they were polite and friendly, but neither they nor I could read their character sheet. Once, I allowed a player to sit at my table with a character sheet drawn up on a collection of scraps of paper, but that was a mistake. (So, BNW, if somebody were to sit at my table with all the important information scrawled on napkins, he would not be welcome. But there's a table over there with some lovely pre-gens.)
I don't believe that a novice GM needs to have the breadth and scope of Society-legal play in her comfort zone, and she's within her rights to say "I just don't understand how [say] Summoners and Eidolons work, and I don't feel comfortable trying to take a crash course in that right now. I am not prepared to give you a good PFS experience." And when I organize game days or conventions, I am ready to move players with "advanced" builds to GMs with a skill set better able to handle them.
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Everything I have is digital, but I don't use Herolabs. I use form-fillable PDFs and keep all my chronicle sheets labeled in chronological order uploaded to my Google Drive account. Same goes for my books. Table space I save is notable as I only need my tablet, notepad, some dice, and my figurine. It's also much easier to carry and I never have to work about which character to prep since all of them are accessible. Also makes things very easy to carry around.
Personally, I haven't ever run into an issue with it. I've been asked to hand over my sheet before, but that was more for scenario reasons rather than being audited. I haven't found anyone in my area that's anti-tech either. I think it more or less falls on people being people and their quirks about stuff.
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Honestly, since that whole "Herolab is evil" thread, I've been hoping for an official answer to the the OP's question.
I'm not worried about having my Chronicles/ITS/sources in a row. I would however like to know that when I go to GenCon this year, if I happen to sit down at a table with someone with a Herolab grudge, they can't boot me for having no paper character sheet. Or if they can that would be nice to know too.
I actually went through every archetype, feat, spell, trait, and piece of equipment last night on all of my characters and ensured that I did indeed have a copy of every book needed either physical or on watermarked PDF. I was a bit surprised to find out I was missing one, and ended up ordering and downloading "Sargava, the Lost Colony"
So, if I get a GM that tries to pull an audit like that hoping to catch me, he'll be wasting all our time.
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I think I'm going to sit this one out.
Please, I'd love to hear what you have to say about me, a fairly experienced PFS player and GM who has verified he has all the books and/or PDFs to back up every trait, feat, spell, etc on all his characters, using Hero Lab as the primary storage medium for his characters.
Would you deny me playing at your table simply because I used Hero Labs? Would you perform a lengthy audit of my character and if you didn't find anything wrong hold a grudge?
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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First, the product is Hero Lab. Singular. Not Hero Labs, plural.
Second, I have had players come to the table with only an iPad, with the books and sources they needed in watermarked .pdfs. That's fine with me - less clutter at the table. But, if I audit that character and find you don't have with you any of the additional resources that your character needs, then no, that character isn't going to be played at that table.
That's not a function of Hero Lab. That's a function of a player not following the rules. I don't know if a single GM in my area, or that I have encountered at a convention, that prohibits HL from being used at the table.
HL is a tool to track a character. So is a piece of paper. Regardless of the tool used, the character must still comply with all rules.
The only thing I do NOT let people use HL for at the table is rolling dice - I make people roll physical dice on the table (and I would make an exception for someone with physical restrictions who might not be able to physically roll dice.)
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I think I'm going to sit this one out.Please, I'd love to hear what you have to say about me, a fairly experienced PFS player and GM who has verified he has all the books and/or PDFs to back up every trait, feat, spell, etc on all his characters, using Hero Lab as the primary storage medium for his characters.
Would you deny me playing at your table simply because I used Hero Labs? Would you perform a lengthy audit of my character and if you didn't find anything wrong hold a grudge?
I'b boot you.... just cuz i dont like you.....
but hey i am a jerk...
but the OP poster i would allow... as long as he has scans of his chronicles... but in all honesty i would expect issues like this to have table variation.
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I think I'm going to sit this one out.Please, I'd love to hear what you have to say about me, a fairly experienced PFS player and GM who has verified he has all the books and/or PDFs to back up every trait, feat, spell, etc on all his characters, using Hero Lab as the primary storage medium for his characters.
Would you deny me playing at your table simply because I used Hero Labs? Would you perform a lengthy audit of my character and if you didn't find anything wrong hold a grudge?
I'b boot you.... just cuz i dont like you.....
but hey i am a jerk...
but the OP poster i would allow... as long as he has scans of his chronicles... but in all honesty i would expect issues like this to have table variation.
I am the OP. And the person you quoted.
Now, Mr. Schroedingerscat, tell me what you'd do!
I actually went through every archetype, feat, spell, trait, and piece of equipment last night on all of my characters and ensured that I did indeed have a copy of every book needed either physical or on watermarked PDF. I was a bit surprised to find out I was missing one, and ended up ordering and downloading "Sargava, the Lost Colony"So, if I get a GM that tries to pull an audit like that hoping to catch me, he'll be wasting all our time.
It is fairly trivial to limit which sources Hero Lab draws upon.
I would like to turn the question around. Do you really want to submit your character to the tender mercies of a GM who blindly requires you to slay trees to play your favorite game?
My advice is to print out the long form with the explanations and references for each character before con. If you level up you can look up the new stuff fairly quickly, and if your tech crashes you will have backups.
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There should not be an expectation of table variation on this issue.
Campaign leadership has stated that paper chronicle sheets are required so I print my online chronicles and bring my face to face copies with me. I have zero problem with this. They only ever have to be printed once so this isn't a big deal.
I have every rule book I own in cloud storage for access from any of my devices and also stored directly on my tablet. No issues there. I do not use sources I do not own. So far so good.
If someone doesn't do one or more of these things and it gets caught in an audit I have no problem with them being barred from a game (worst case, hopefully it can be fixed another way). If that audit was instigated SOLELY because they use Hero Lab then I think the GM is being a jerk, but that's a bigger issue.
I do NOT however print my characters because that would be more pages being printed multiple times unnecessarily (as I see it). Hence an answer to the originally posted question would be helpful to put this matter to rest.
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There should not be an expectation of table variation on this issue.
Campaign leadership has stated that paper chronicle sheets are required so I print my online chronicles and bring my face to face copies with me. I have zero problem with this. They only ever have to be printed once so this isn't a big deal.
I have every rule book I own in cloud storage for access from any of my devices and also stored directly on my tablet. No issues there. I do not use sources I do not own. So far so good.
If someone doesn't do one or more of these things and it gets caught in an audit I have no problem with them being barred from a game (worst case, hopefully it can be fixed another way). If that audit was instigated SOLELY because they use Hero Lab then I think the GM is being a jerk, but that's a bigger issue.
I do NOT however print my characters because that would be more pages being printed multiple times unnecessarily (as I see it). Hence an answer to the originally posted question would be helpful to put this matter to rest.
Thank you, that's the best clarification I've seen on this.
I have in fact verified I have PDF or book copies of all material I am using, and I have all my chronicle sheets (I figure they're already printed, no sense to not have them with me, I'm just trying to be a bit green and save paper).
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Here you go.The official ruling is that electronic chronicle sheets are not valid (except for online sessions) so you have to print any off for face to face sessions.Can you link to that ruling?
Im not saying this didnt actually get added to the Guide, but I cant find it in the current version.
That's right protect the trees....except ones that throw apples at people those you can burn.
edit: Why wouldn't you roll real dice? The clackiity clack of rolling dicev is like music to my gamer ears.
I personally use Herolab but always print out the Herolab character sheet. Always.
Excellent advice. Printout as backup - and if you level up, it's not that hard to scratch out the printed stuff that's no longer current and write in the updates. A reasonable GM should be able to recognize what you've done if they decide to review your sheet.
Interesting note: After a couple of years playing PFS at Gen Con, I've never had a character sheet audited. Nor have I ever seen it. That said, I've played in mostly lower level events without weird complexities coming up in play. So I don't think any of my PFS GMs have ever felt the need to audit.
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Interesting note: After a couple of years playing PFS at Gen Con, I've never had a character sheet audited. Nor have I ever seen it. That said, I've played in mostly lower level events without weird complexities coming up in play. So I don't think any of my PFS GMs have ever felt the need to audit.
I've never felt the need to audit a PFS character. I played a lot of Living Greyhawk. That was the only time that I felt the need to audit. I spotted a discrepancy with a character and another judge did the actual audit.
Mike
Guys, don't bring up locked discussions. It only leads to more locked threads.
...Are you the evi....err the good twin, or have I entered the Twilight Zone. TOZ is calling for moderation....sign of the Apoccalypse Cosmo is coming!!!
Actually, no. At a public event a GM is not allowed to boot you for any reason. He may only boot disruptive players.
Galahad, you have asserted this before. I believe you are mistaken, but I'd be glad to be corrected.
I'm not sure it's explicit, but my reading of the PFS material suggests that a player should be able to expect to play as long as there's space, he's got a legal character, and behaves himself. The materials don't really suggest that he can be turned away because of idiosyncratic GM preferences.
...Are you the evi....err the good twin, or have I entered the Twilight Zone. TOZ is calling for moderation....sign of the Apoccalypse Cosmo is coming!!!This VO unit will enforce your compliance with extreme prejudice.
Compliance isn't really my thing however if you wait a moment I have some friends you'd like to meet...
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Honestly, since that whole "Herolab is evil" thread, I've been hoping for an official answer to the the OP's question.
I'm not worried about having my Chronicles/ITS/sources in a row. I would however like to know that when I go to GenCon this year, if I happen to sit down at a table with someone with a Herolab grudge, they can't boot me for having no paper character sheet. Or if they can that would be nice to know too.
I was never fully sure whether the argument contended was to whether a GM has the right to refuse a wholely electronic version of a character sheet done on Hero Lab, or whether they were contending they could refuse all forms of character sheets done via Hero Lab, including printed ones.
I too would like to see clarification as to just what right a refusal a GM may or may not have.
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In fact - if you love trees - you should print off everything and waste more paper. Virtually all paper in the develped world comes from tree farms - so if you use up more paper - they'll actually plant MORE trees in order to supply the increased paper demand. (There are actually more trees in the US now than a century ago due to tree farms etc.)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Guys, don't bring up locked discussions. It only leads to more locked threads.
Problem is, that thread was in serious need of an official response clarifying GM refusal rights. Seeing as that needed clarification has yet to be given, then we are well within our rights to bring it up again.