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The hammer scenes were funny.
But nothing busted a stitch on my African souvenir like puny god.
Ultron: "You know, with the benefit of hindsight,-"
SLAMThat was a golden moment too. Hawkeye had some great lines ("Last time I saw him, Ultron was sitting on him..."), Thor and Vision geeking out about the hammer was great ("It is terribly well balanced...") and Stark and Rogers arguing over the logic of the hammer ("If you put it on an elevator...?"), all of it fantastic.
Of course you laughed a bit less. It wasn't as surprising because the characters are already so well established, as well as the type of humor they are affiliated with, so you weren't as surprised. The jokes themselves were every bit as good and often better than those in the first movie.
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BW/Hulk:
I don't get where this is coming from, honestly. Unlike real cases of abuse, Bruce Banner has an actual supernatural (umm, "scientific", I guess) reason for his rages. It is not as if he is a beating boyfriend that sometimes gets drunk with his friends and then comes home to slap the wife about. He is a very good man who is actually doing the best he can given circumstances. So comparing his situation with an abusive relationship is to some degree absurd. Add that to the fact that Romanov herself is the definition of tough and self reliant, and I just fail to see how this could possibly be an issue.
I mean, the rest of the Avengers accept him as a friend too, and he beat most of them up waaay worse than anything he every did to Romanov (had he been able to pommel her the way he did Thor she would be long dead). Is the Avengers initiative an abusive cult, the various members of it getting victimized by Banner over and over again yet always crawl back to him because they think they need him?
Do the character of Romanov a favor and attribute her with as much agency as you do the rest of the crew.
I really love the Bruce Banner/Hulk combo as a character. I love that they avoid the Jekyll/Hyde good/evil judgement and make it about creation/destruction instead. Morally, Hulk is good. He's simply out of control rage and has difficulty distinguishing friend from foe. And Banner's inherent intelligence, decency, and morality make his transformation into Hulk really heart-wrenching.
But no matter how much Bruce's friends like him, they don't take the Hulk for granted. They prepare contingencies to (try to) control him when he comes around. And he always does. Natalia knows this. She knows (from his statement in the first movie) that he's always angry. She knows he can kill her in Hulk form. That's why the poor guy shuns society. Yet she ignores all these things to (suddenly) spill her guts and try to get him into a relationship. It makes no sense. I give her credit for agency - intelligent agency. She's not stupid.
Sure, we can't help who we love. But we can control how we act. Her willingness to enter into a relationship with somebody who could change instantly and become out-of-control enraged is what puts this into the ooky arena for me. It's all too familiar IRL. I hate for young girls to get the message that an out-of-control angry guy is OK - I can handle him. I also think it's cruel to Banner. He has a very good reason for being a hermit.
I admit I may be over-sensitive about her relationships because of Renner and Evan's slut/whore remarks about her character. If they were going to give Black Widow a love story, I'm glad it wasn't with one of those guys!
Hope this helps clarify my reaction to that party of the story. I felt the writers let us down there, though I certainly felt the hurt and pathos of these two lonely people exploring a possible connection. And her late-story reveal about the "graduation ceremony" explained part of why she would consider the relationship, which helped. Still, if I had a daughter who saw the film with me, I'd certainly be having a discussion with her about real life relationships.
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** spoiler omitted **...
** spoiler omitted **
Sure, we can't help who we love. But we can control how we act. Her willingness to enter into a relationship with somebody who could change instantly and become out-of-control enraged is what puts this into the ooky arena for me. It's all too familiar IRL. I hate for young girls to get the message that an out-of-control angry guy is OK - I can handle him. I also think it's cruel to Banner. He has a very good reason for being a hermit.
Interestingly, this is a build-up from the first Avengers movie. In that movie, it was clearly shown that the only Avenger Romanov was afraid of was the Hulk - there's a scene of him chasing her in the underbelly of the helicarrier and during that entire engagement she is clearly terrified in a way we haven't seen her be before or since.
So by the time Avengers 2 rolls around, what we actually see is Black Widow overcoming her initial fear because she has seen enough to convince her that she is good for Benner (both in human form and in Hulk form) and that that he is good for her. Remember, she thinks of herself in similar terms to those that Benner thinks of himself - both of them believe that the good they do can never compensate for the horrors they inflict when the monster within them takes over.
This is the reverse of the Beating Husband dynamic - it started with the horror and the (I'd stress again supernatural literally beyond control) violence, and developed into something that is stabilizing emotionally for both lovers.
And finally I would also bring up again that Romanov is uber competent and well aware of the fact. She has outwitted and outplayed so many people in her life that real world considerations of real world women barely apply to her any more. In other words, if she thinks she can handle it, that means she can. In the first Avengers movie she didn't think she could handle the Hulk. In the second one she proved that she could, and that allowed her to get close to Benner.
I believe that moving beyond knee-jerk reactions to what might seem analogous of an abusive relationship to actually taking in the situation in its entirety is important here. Sure, I guess if a young girl watches it there might be some room to mange expectations later, maybe, because it is a complex situation. Truth be told I don't know all that much about kids. But for an adult there really shouldn't be any problem.
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** spoiler omitted **Not gonna happen. The hulk is always ready to take over and save puny Banner.
Yeah, if the Hulk can stop a bullet that Banner shoots into his mouth, I'm thinking that any plan to kill Banner that can't *also* kill the Hulk is an auto-fail.
I loved the scene where
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It was also spoken in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, in a particularly badass manner.
But Thor had awesome badass moments in that show a lot.
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"...Sorry?"
That was the part that had me laughing the hardest. Just the expression on the Hulk's face and then the cut to Tony's face from inside the armor then the beat before "...I'm sorry."
I went and saw it yesterday, instead of watching that fake fight that was on a little later in the evening, but I hear some of the ticket sales may have suffered from people watching that one instead.
And the Stanley Cup finals, and the Kentucky Derby...
Praise of Black Widow.
I am glad you responded and thought you had some interesting things to say, but it still doesn't change my emotional reaction and opinion about that particular development in the movie. I did see some of the character development you were discussing, but transitioning from a confident associate to a love interest was too big of a leap for me to accept. Our view of the relationship may be different simply because of the differences in where you and I are in life. I wish I had your optimism.
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I just saw it. Hawkeye is my new favorite avenger. Between him and Thor are some of the best lines.
Hawkeye easily stole the show.
An amazing movie, worth the fight to get tickets and decent seats.
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Watched it, enjoyed it, expect to watch it again.
Ultron was delightful as a villain.
Hawkeye got some much needed screentime, too.
Question about Dr. Helen Cho - was she (or the tech she had) introduced in anything previously (either a disc short, Agents of Shield, or something else)?
The MCU Helen Cho already has a much more significant role than her comics counterpart - in the comics, she's apparently the murdered mother of a superhero I'd never heard of. (i.e., her only role in the comics was to wind up in a fridge.)
A bit of a jump from that to one of the MCU's top doctors.
Treppa, I can't help but think you missed the lullaby.
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Watched it, enjoyed it, expect to watch it again.
Ultron was delightful as a villain.
Hawkeye got some much needed screentime, too.
** spoiler omitted **
Question about Dr. Helen Cho - was she (or the tech she had) introduced in anything previously (either a disc short, Agents of Shield, or something else)?
The MCU Helen Cho already has a much more significant role than her comics counterpart - in the comics, she's apparently the murdered mother of a superhero I'd never heard of. (i.e., her only role in the comics was to wind up in a fridge.)
A bit of a jump from that to one of the MCU's top doctors.
I think somewhere in there is the line "None of this makes sense." But yea, that was a great speech.
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I might be garbling this line.:
Definitely one of my favorite parts. The stuff with the hammer was great too, and pretty much everything that came out of Ultron's mouth. Also this:
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Even 'gods' can't stand against the Hulk."That's also not necessarily true. He and Thor have certainly not established who's top dog between them in the MCU (whereas it's well-established in the comics that the Hulk's upper strength limit eventually and then easily surpasses even Thor's, but that Thor's powers [channeled through Mjolnir] are vastly greater and more multifaceted than the Hulk's); in the MCU, thus far, Hulk only seems more powerful because he's more destructive, and because Thor has never unleashed anything approaching his full power. Frankly, the idea that Iron Man could defeat the Hulk when Thor can't should be laughable. But if that's the way the MCU takes it, well ... dumb, but canonical.
Depending on how the cast shake downs break out for Infinity Wars, I am guessing we are going to get a scene of Thanos just effortlessy beating up the Hulk, to show his Villain threat credentials.
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So just to show everyone I have the most amazing wifey ever. There I am having a shit day at work and I'm talking to her on the phone and she so nonchalantly goes
Amazing wifey: You know we still need to watch the avengers when do you want to go?
Undeserving husband: today...?
Amazing wifey: ok let me see what time it's showing.
Undeserving husband: REALLY!!!!!!!
So later tonight we are watching it and I repeat I have the most amazing wife ever in the entire multiverse.
@ Treppa. Natasha. Her name is Natasha.
I thought so, then I looked it up. Wiki said "Natalia (Natasha)", so I figured my poor memory had failed me and used the first entry, as is proper.
Wouldn't be the first time Wiki was wrong. It also could be how names morph in Russian (like 'Elizabeth' and 'Beth'). I dunno.
Treppa, I can't help but think you missed the lullaby.
At the beginning, where she...
Lullaby
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Proposition: Whedon put the infamous "Untron shooting Captain America" as a kind of temper tantrum because he was not allowed to kill any of the major characters.
What was Quicksilver, chopped liver?
Well, OK, maybe he was afterwards. With a some other mangled organs as well.
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One thing I'll note about the Whedon discussion, he recently said that (paraphrased of course) he was separating himself from the MCU to focus on his TV series again as that's the place he likes to be.
What series?
As for him not being able to use some characters like him might have wanted to because they are key in future storylines....that's something you have to accept when you work in a pre-existing franchise...especially one that has a rough future planned out. If you don't want to deal with it, you don't accept the job.
I'm a big fan of his, but I don't consider him to be without flaws. For example, I think he has a specific range of the length of a medium that he works best in. His strengths really don't fully come out if he doesn't get enough time (IE, he needs more than just a movie or two), but I also think that he tends to fizzle out when he's given too much time (see Buffy and Angel).
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I'm not seeing the Cap nonlethal controversy. Cap's got armor built into his uniform. Even ** spoiler omitted ** takes a shot in the chest and doesn't die from it. I can't understand why this of all things is shattering people's suspension of disbelief.It's not just that he survived, it's that he shrugged it off as if it was no more than a punch. When it was actually a super advanced high tech energy weapon. Surviving stuff is fine for a hero, but how am I supposed to be involved in a fight scene where the bad guy did his worse to the good guy and nothing happened? at that point the scene is just noise and lights, not an intense fight. Kinda like every scene with the Hulk in it, except we got used to it with the Hulk *and* it is an established part of the character. People, self included, assumed Cap is vulnerable.
I think it's worth noting that this Ultron is really pretty much Ultron Mark 1. He hasn't been through a bunch of defeats and upgrades to become the true powerhouse that the comic Ultron has become. Heck, he didn't even give himself a vibranium body.
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I think it would be naive to assume Ultron is gone.
Ultron had a ton of copies of himself. He could have stashed a bunch of them anywhere before the big showdown at the end of the movie.
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Tony's been building a Hulk-control system. Convenient
I can definitely buy this, because they'd have to be extremely stupid NOT to have some sort of plan for what happens if the Hulk goes out of control.
(The better plans involve "Call Thor")
My biggest problem with it is that the MCU Hulkbuster armor was about a billion times more effective than any comic version of it has ever been.
Well, the MCU version of Hulk is also weaker than the comic version at some points I've seen.
Didn't he, at one point, take on the entire cast of heroes (and villains?) and WIN in World War Hulk?
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Tony's been building a Hulk-control system. ConvenientI can definitely buy this, because they'd have to be extremely stupid NOT to have some sort of plan for what happens if the Hulk goes out of control.
(The better plans involve "Call Thor")
My biggest problem with it is that the MCU Hulkbuster armor was about a billion times more effective than any comic version of it has ever been.
It wasn't just designed by Stark, it was designed by Bruce Banner and used by Stark.