thejeff |
Lord Snow wrote:Yes, thats what I mean. Is Cap hit in the chest while in uniform? if so, maybe the star on the uniform could be mad as same material as the shield and that saved him. I'll buy something like that. But I still have to see how it looks in the movie.
It's not an issue with a moment in the plot where Ultron chose not to kill Cap, it's an issue with Rogers taking a lethal blow square on in the chest and not even looking as if it hurt him. He shouldn't have survived it at all.
It shouldn't be. The shield can't be duplicated, at least in the comics. I assume in the movie-verse as well or there'd be more indestructible stuff around.
The best explanation so far seems to be that Ultron wanted to keep him around and deliberately toned that blast down. Still sloppy to put something like that in without explanation.
Krensky |
It shouldn't be. The shield can't be duplicated, at least in the comics. I assume in the movie-verse as well or there'd be more indestructible stuff around.
Howard's comments about vibranium and that T'Challa hasn't shown up yet we're probably safe assuming that even if the movies make the alloy reproducible there isn't enough vibranium to do so.
Of course the current shield is double unique since it had uru added to it's vibranium/proto-adamantium alloy.
Fun fact for people only casually interested: Cap's shield is the toughest man made object in world, and one of the toughest things in the universe.
John Kretzer |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Saw it last night. I'll wait for next week when you all have as well before I make in depth comments but I enjoyed it, and it was an improvement over the first film.
Marvel is bringing their A game, DC better kick it up as well.
I like to compare the MCU vs the DCU this way...
Marvel is the kid in art class that is really talented and making really cool things...
DC is the kid sitting in the corner eating paste....
lowfyr01 |
thejeff wrote:It shouldn't be. The shield can't be duplicated, at least in the comics. I assume in the movie-verse as well or there'd be more indestructible stuff around.Howard's comments about vibranium and that T'Challa hasn't shown up yet we're probably safe assuming that even if the movies make the alloy reproducible there isn't enough vibranium to do so.
Of course the current shield is double unique since it had uru added to it's vibranium/proto-adamantium alloy.
Fun fact for people only casually interested: Cap's shield is the toughest man made object in world, and one of the toughest things in the universe.
In the MCU the shield is just made of vibranium. And they could not use more of the stuff because there was just enough to make the shield. Of course that may change after the movie^^
Marc Radle |
baron arem heshvaun wrote:Saw it last night. I'll wait for next week when you all have as well before I make in depth comments but I enjoyed it, and it was an improvement over the first film.
Marvel is bringing their A game, DC better kick it up as well.
I like to compare the MCU vs the DCU this way...
Marvel is the kid in art class that is really talented and making really cool things...
DC is the kid sitting in the corner eating paste....
As someone who was an art major in high school and college ... I love that!
Lord Snow |
CapeCodRPGer wrote:Lord Snow wrote:Yes, thats what I mean. Is Cap hit in the chest while in uniform? if so, maybe the star on the uniform could be mad as same material as the shield and that saved him. I'll buy something like that. But I still have to see how it looks in the movie.
It's not an issue with a moment in the plot where Ultron chose not to kill Cap, it's an issue with Rogers taking a lethal blow square on in the chest and not even looking as if it hurt him. He shouldn't have survived it at all.It shouldn't be. The shield can't be duplicated, at least in the comics. I assume in the movie-verse as well or there'd be more indestructible stuff around.
The best explanation so far seems to be that Ultron wanted to keep him around and deliberately toned that blast down. Still sloppy to put something like that in without explanation.
Even in that case, Rogers certainly should have noticed something was amiss. He was hit with what should by all accounts have killed him on the spot and it didn't even hurt him. They could have analyzed what happened there and maybe draw a conclusion or two about Ultron's tactics or motivations.
But, yeah, even if there is some explanation they shouldn't have put the scene in the movie without it, it was jarring.
Krensky |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've enjoyed Whedon's work and I don't share Freehold's firey hatred, but...
There IS a reason I jokingly wondered if the first Avengers movie would end with Iron Man, Hulk, Hawkeye, Thor, and Cap disabled and Black Widow, Pepper Pots, Wasp, Maria Hill, Sharon Carter, etc fighting off the bad guys and saving the day.
Lord Snow |
Krensky wrote:Ah, you mean someone kept the hack from killing a puppy just because he wanted a cheap emotional shock Fromm the audience and doesn't know how to get one otherwise?
Yeah, no wonder he's pissy.
I like Whedon, and even I agree with this.
Whedon: It's getting old, man.
I strongly disagree. In Serenity and Firefly there were several very strong emotional moments, only one of which relayed on shock value (I hated the hack out of it). In Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog there's a great song that has some strong emotions in it. In Avengers 1 there was a strong emotional moment at the ending when Iron Man made the choice to sacrifice himself.
It's not that he doesn't know how to create emotions in his viewers, it's more specifically that his attitude to character death sucks. Makes it feel arbitrary and annoying. Rather then achieving his stated goal of creating a sense of tension knowing that the heroes are in danger, he creates a sense of trepidation. You know the heroes are not going to die while being awesome in an action scene, one of them will bite the bullet for no reason out of nowhere in some swift and unsatisfying fashion.
Also, in this case the fact that a death was coming was built up over several scenes, it's just that the identity of the deceased turned out to be a bait-and-switch. One where you actually feel relieves because a character you didn't care about died rather than one you did. Honestly, that scene felt more like the hero escaping death than anything else.
There IS a reason I jokingly wondered if the first Avengers movie would end with Iron Man, Hulk, Hawkeye, Thor, and Cap disabled and Black Widow, Pepper Pots, Wasp, Maria Hill, Sharon Carter, etc fighting off the bad guys and saving the day.
Err, what is the reason? Is it because he likes having fighting women in his stories?
Lord Snow |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Because he's a hack who does the same thing over and over again.
Still, he's a million times better than Zack Snyder.
1) There IS such a thing as "doing the same thing over and over again" without being a hack. Take Brandon Sanderson as an example - you can describe most of his books with "There's some special magic system, a God Emperor character, a religion strongly tied to the story, and a protagonist who gains an edge by understanding the magic system better than everyone else". Is Sanderson a hack?
Whedon has his tropes, sure. They are more pronounced than in most places. Tarantino has them too, if for a lesser degree. doesn't make any of them a hack. Whedon has done science fiction, horror, a *musical*, and all of them brought with a screen play that is at the very least smarter than average (I'd argue Cabin in the Woods is nothing less than ingenues) and directly with skill. He is many things but a hack is not one of them.2) Well, your fears have been elevated, I hope. He did not switch out the avengers for an all female team. Are you now convinced that he is not as obsessive as you make him sound?
Lord Snow |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You seem personally offended that I don't consider Whedon to be the genius you think he is. So much so that you're arguing against things I never said.
Maybe you should examine why you care so much about a stranger's opinion regarding Joss Whedon's level of skill?
Nah, no need for self examination here. I get passionate about stuff all the time.
Seemed to me I addressed the issues you raised pretty much on point. You said Whedon is a hack who keeps repeating himself, I countered with a few examples and an underlying logic that having tropes does not make someone a "hack", especially when obvious talent and care go into their creations. I'll grant, my second point was less interesting, and was more of a vehicle to say that I think you're exaggerating in your criticism.
Besides, I'm currently more of a Alex Hirsch fanboy than I am a Whedonist. And, if I may add, my review of the movie itself was not all that glowing. I just happen to think you are being way to critical of an obviously talented movie craftsman.
Set |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Krensky wrote:Ah, you mean someone kept the hack from killing a puppy just because he wanted a cheap emotional shock Fromm the audience and doesn't know how to get one otherwise?
Yeah, no wonder he's pissy.
I like Whedon, and even I agree with this.
Whedon: It's getting old, man.
IMO, combining both the in-universe rationale of what's happened with Stark's journey, and the real world upcoming end of Robert Downey Jrs. contract, I would have expected a standalone Avengers 2 movie to end with the death of Stark.
But that's verboten, because of Captain America: Civil War coming up. So the story in Avengers 2 is already hamstrung by certain characters being needed for another movie, despite their *own* story and arc and progression having already been explored in their own trilogy of movies.
If I were Whedon, I'd be a bit pissy about being told who has to be in this movie, what other properties I have to set up (Thanos, Black Panther, etc.) and who can't die, no matter what, even their character arc is told and their actor has a foot out the door. (I can understand Captain America and Thor being bulletproof, since they each have a movie left in their respective trilogies, for instance, but Stark? He's perfectly poised to be the 'big death' of the movie, and it can't happen, because he's got a part to play in some other characters movie. Ugh.)
As I understand it, this sort of thing led to the change in directors for Ant-Man, as well, and I don't see any need to take shots at *that* director for not particularly enjoying being told what he had to cut from his movie to make room for (basically) advertisements for other upcoming movies.
GreyWolfLord |
Well,
I didn't mind the movie that much, but what did disappoint was...
The beginning was so fake with how the CGI was. To me it looked more like a bunch of cartoon characters. It didn't improve all that much later on, the ending was like 90% CGI, like a 3d animated cartoon with a few live actors tossed in.
What was worse was the CGI was pretty blatant, so not as easy to be lost in the illusion of movie magic.
Otherwise, it wasn't a bad movie. I don't recall there being a thing between the Hulk and Black Widow previously, but hey...whatever.
Also, does this mean that the old Avengers are gone and what are left are Cap, Widow, with new members being Rhody, Falcon, Scarlet Witch, and Vision?
Overall I didn't enjoy it as much as the original Avengers or Cap2, but it wasn't terrible either. I enjoyed it more than IM 3.
John Kretzer |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Saw last night and I liked it a lot...I don't think it was that dumb. The way the handled Scarlet Witch's power is a 100 times better than they ever did in the comic books.
baron arem heshvaun |
Bizarro Freehold |
You seem personally offended that I don't consider Whedon to be the genius you think he is. So much so that you're arguing against things I never said.
Maybe you should examine why you care so much about a stranger's opinion regarding Joss Whedon's level of skill?
I tend to use the anti-Whedon rants as a sort of gauge. The more I see people who I know aren't fond of his stuff ranting about it, the more I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy the product. Likewise, the things they tend to rave about being good, I tend to not care for.
There's a reason I have this alias.
Freehold DM |
Freehold DM |
Krensky wrote:You seem personally offended that I don't consider Whedon to be the genius you think he is. So much so that you're arguing against things I never said.
Maybe you should examine why you care so much about a stranger's opinion regarding Joss Whedon's level of skill?
I tend to use the anti-Whedon rants as a sort of gauge. The more I see people who I know aren't fond of his stuff ranting about it, the more I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy the product. Likewise, the things they tend to rave about being good, I tend to not care for.
There's a reason I have this alias.
what, are you left handed too?!
Lord Snow |
Saw last night and I liked it a lot...I don't think it was that dumb. The way the handled Scarlet Witch's power is a 100 times better than they ever did in the comic books.
** spoiler omitted **
Not convincing. And even had it been the case, you'd expect the Avengers to comment on the fact and maybe use it to try and understand their villain better. It is extremely strange for him to all of a sudden resort to non lethal means when any of a dozen previous attack attempts could have been lethal.
atheral |
Saw the movie last night. I thought it was pretty good, I still preferred the first one or GoTG to this. Can't really pin it down but something felt...slightly off about this one, like they were trying too hard or something.
One thing I'll note about the Whedon discussion, he recently said that (paraphrased of course) he was separating himself from the MCU to focus on his TV series again as that's the place he likes to be. So I see this as meaning two things
1) Whedon got tired of executive meddling (even though in this case it was probably a good thing) I can see that not being able to manage the story like he would want could cause some bad blood to seep into the equation.
2)As much as Whedon is perceived as the storyteller of the MCU up to this point it's obvious either Kevin Fengie or one of the other higher ups are actually crafting the broad strokes plot of the movies.
as an additional thought
3) this also means that Freehold can look forward to viewing all future MCU films without fear.
Orthos |
Bizarro Freehold wrote:what, are you left handed too?!Krensky wrote:You seem personally offended that I don't consider Whedon to be the genius you think he is. So much so that you're arguing against things I never said.
Maybe you should examine why you care so much about a stranger's opinion regarding Joss Whedon's level of skill?
I tend to use the anti-Whedon rants as a sort of gauge. The more I see people who I know aren't fond of his stuff ranting about it, the more I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy the product. Likewise, the things they tend to rave about being good, I tend to not care for.
There's a reason I have this alias.
Alas, I am not. My sister got that straw.
Lord Snow |
I'm not seeing the Cap nonlethal controversy. Cap's got armor built into his uniform. Even ** spoiler omitted ** takes a shot in the chest and doesn't die from it. I can't understand why this of all things is shattering people's suspension of disbelief.
It's not just that he survived, it's that he shrugged it off as if it was no more than a punch. When it was actually a super advanced high tech energy weapon. Surviving stuff is fine for a hero, but how am I supposed to be involved in a fight scene where the bad guy did his worse to the good guy and nothing happened? at that point the scene is just noise and lights, not an intense fight. Kinda like every scene with the Hulk in it, except we got used to it with the Hulk *and* it is an established part of the character. People, self included, assumed Cap is vulnerable.
Kieviel |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Saw it this morning, loved it :-)
I will say I don't see what the problem is with Cap taking the hit. He survives things all the time that would kill a normal person. Heck, even the "normal" Avengers do this on a regular basis. Black Widow takes one fall in particular that towards the end that should have at least had her limping.
It's movie with Gods, mad scientists, a man who runs incredibly fast without the need of extra calories and another who can quadruple (just a guess) his mass without the need to actually supply that mass.
Cap taking a hit doesn't seem that crazy to me.
John Kretzer |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Shisumo wrote:I'm not seeing the Cap nonlethal controversy. Cap's got armor built into his uniform. Even ** spoiler omitted ** takes a shot in the chest and doesn't die from it. I can't understand why this of all things is shattering people's suspension of disbelief.It's not just that he survived, it's that he shrugged it off as if it was no more than a punch. When it was actually a super advanced high tech energy weapon. Surviving stuff is fine for a hero, but how am I supposed to be involved in a fight scene where the bad guy did his worse to the good guy and nothing happened? at that point the scene is just noise and lights, not an intense fight. Kinda like every scene with the Hulk in it, except we got used to it with the Hulk *and* it is an established part of the character. People, self included, assumed Cap is vulnerable.
Did you see the same movie as I did? He did not just shrug it off. Also if you have been paying attention to the movie Cap America heals a lot faster than a normal person.
John Kretzer |
Bizarro Freehold wrote:what, are you left handed too?!Krensky wrote:You seem personally offended that I don't consider Whedon to be the genius you think he is. So much so that you're arguing against things I never said.
Maybe you should examine why you care so much about a stranger's opinion regarding Joss Whedon's level of skill?
I tend to use the anti-Whedon rants as a sort of gauge. The more I see people who I know aren't fond of his stuff ranting about it, the more I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy the product. Likewise, the things they tend to rave about being good, I tend to not care for.
There's a reason I have this alias.
What is wrong with left handed people?
Shisumo |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Shisumo wrote:I'm not seeing the Cap nonlethal controversy. Cap's got armor built into his uniform. Even ** spoiler omitted ** takes a shot in the chest and doesn't die from it. I can't understand why this of all things is shattering people's suspension of disbelief.It's not just that he survived, it's that he shrugged it off as if it was no more than a punch. When it was actually a super advanced high tech energy weapon. Surviving stuff is fine for a hero, but how am I supposed to be involved in a fight scene where the bad guy did his worse to the good guy and nothing happened? at that point the scene is just noise and lights, not an intense fight. Kinda like every scene with the Hulk in it, except we got used to it with the Hulk *and* it is an established part of the character. People, self included, assumed Cap is vulnerable.
Hama |
Freehold DM wrote:What is wrong with left handed people?Bizarro Freehold wrote:what, are you left handed too?!Krensky wrote:You seem personally offended that I don't consider Whedon to be the genius you think he is. So much so that you're arguing against things I never said.
Maybe you should examine why you care so much about a stranger's opinion regarding Joss Whedon's level of skill?
I tend to use the anti-Whedon rants as a sort of gauge. The more I see people who I know aren't fond of his stuff ranting about it, the more I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy the product. Likewise, the things they tend to rave about being good, I tend to not care for.
There's a reason I have this alias.
They are the work of Satan :D
Lord Snow |
Lord Snow wrote:** spoiler omitted **Shisumo wrote:I'm not seeing the Cap nonlethal controversy. Cap's got armor built into his uniform. Even ** spoiler omitted ** takes a shot in the chest and doesn't die from it. I can't understand why this of all things is shattering people's suspension of disbelief.It's not just that he survived, it's that he shrugged it off as if it was no more than a punch. When it was actually a super advanced high tech energy weapon. Surviving stuff is fine for a hero, but how am I supposed to be involved in a fight scene where the bad guy did his worse to the good guy and nothing happened? at that point the scene is just noise and lights, not an intense fight. Kinda like every scene with the Hulk in it, except we got used to it with the Hulk *and* it is an established part of the character. People, self included, assumed Cap is vulnerable.
Anyway, in regards to the hit... I'll fold. I guess there's enough justification in comic-book lore and stuff that Cap should have been able to shrug the hit off. Still, I wasn't the only one who noticed that scene in particular - there's a small scale controversy around it. Probably means that it would have still been a better idea not to have shown it in the movie, because it makes Ultron seem much less threatening and because when the general audience sees a broad yellow laser beam shot from a robots' hand, it assumes that the laser is actually dangerous and not merely concussive or whatever. It is confusing and annoying while watching the movie.
baron arem heshvaun |
Ultron's blasts are concussive. They always have been, even in the comic books.
Game stats say "Concussion Blasters mounted in the hands capable of inflicting up to Monstrous Force damage at a 4 area range."
So that's 75 points of damage the range of more than 4 basketball courts.
A normal human has a health of 22, so 75 points would flatten him.
Captain America has a listed health of 150.
Lord Snow |
Doomed Hero wrote:Ultron's blasts are concussive. They always have been, even in the comic books.Game stats say "Concussion Blasters mounted in the hands capable of inflicting up to Monstrous Force damage at a 4 area range."
So that's 75 points of damage the range of more than 4 basketball courts.
A normal human has a health of 22, so 75 points would flatten him.
Captain America has a listed health of 150.
So those two blasts that he took that fight should have got him too... which system are you referencing here, by the way?
Freehold DM |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
baron arem heshvaun wrote:So those two blasts that he took that fight should have got him too... which system are you referencing here, by the way?Doomed Hero wrote:Ultron's blasts are concussive. They always have been, even in the comic books.Game stats say "Concussion Blasters mounted in the hands capable of inflicting up to Monstrous Force damage at a 4 area range."
So that's 75 points of damage the range of more than 4 basketball courts.
A normal human has a health of 22, so 75 points would flatten him.
Captain America has a listed health of 150.
the FASERIP system of course.
Worlds greatest superhero roleplaying game system.Suck it champions!