Looking at the Witch’s hexes I noticed many of them seem to be of limited mechanical value to PCs and more geared towards flavour and/or NPC use e.g. Blight, Child Scent, Nails, Weather Control etc. I'm not saying this is a bad thing - the Child Scent hex gave me an idea for a Dreamweaver who specialises in finding missing children. But I was wondering if more of features of the Witch were directed to NPC use then the features of other PC classes.
I think they were added to give the option of a "classic" fairytale witch feel.
Less than optimal choices are a built-in part of Pathfinder. (Sling and Crossbow both come to mind)
|
It can be used in game...but it requires a very special kind of story and DM. Like if your DM told you that as a witch you would have access to a coven , now the coven hex goes from useless to incredible. Nails is just a terrible hex in general, like most of the other classes, sorcerer get some melee bloodline powers but no full spellcaster with poor bab would ever bother to use them.
Tl:DR: Depend of the campaign. Some hex are obviously superior (Slumber, Evil Eye, Cackle and Misfortune are frankly all you would ever need)
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Looking at the Witch’s hexes I noticed many of them seem to be of limited mechanical value to PCs and more geared towards flavour and/or NPC use e.g. Blight, Child Scent, Nails, Weather Control etc. I'm not saying this is a bad thing - the Child Scent hex gave me an idea for a Dreamweaver who specialises in finding missing children. But I was wondering if more of features of the Witch were directed to NPC use then the features of other PC classes.
Hey, my Skull&Shackles witch is totally planning on taking Weather Control first thing at 10th level. While I agree that some of the other hexes are intended for NPCs, controlling the weather in a naval game is pretty darn nice.
Those types of things are great in a game that focuses on roleplaying and storytelling, rather than just being a wargame with some roleplaying thrown in. I doubt they would interest minmaxers/optimizers much.
Witches do have a good deal of options that are pretty much worthless for PCs, but really, whenever you are presented with a bunch of options in PF a good deal of them will be pretty much worthless in any case. They still have perfectly PC-oriented things like spamming SoL hexes all day, and, after all, they are full casters, therefore automatically very valuable for any adventuring party.
I do like it that they went with abilities that fit the fairytale Witch (as well as archetypes for 'Witches' based on other cultures) though running with this theme seems to have pushed the Witch towards being female particularly in the items department but also with regards to NPCs e.g. the Witch Queens, Baba Yaga and the iconic Feiya. So what class features of other PC classes appear to be more for NPC use?
Witches do have a good deal of options that are pretty much worthless for PCs
Worthless in combat. Not in other scenarios.
The witch is useful in combat with Hexs they can be played as opposite to a Bard by slowly weakening enemies. The can also be use as a secondary healer or become Arcane Archer that can heal.
Witches do have a good deal of options that are pretty much worthless for PCsWorthless in combat. Not in other scenarios.
Not true. Swamp Hag, for example, is exceedingly useful to a witch who spends the majority of her time in swampy terrain; likely not a PC, but could be very useful for a villain-of-the-week witch who's swampland home is being invaded by some nasty yet possibly very tasty adventurers.
Other options like Child-Scent and Cook People are quite obviously intended for enemies, not party members who are generally assumed to be good or neutral.
So what class features of other PC classes appear to be more for NPC use?
Well I mentioned this in another thread but poison use seems to have a lot more function for NPCs than PCs. Any alchemist NPC I've come across has been quite effective. I've been playing Pathfinder for four and a half months now and I've seen just about every class played by one person or another but not one alchemist. Investigators seem to be a lot more popular than alchemists for players where I play at least.
|
Witches do have a good deal of options that are pretty much worthless for PCsWorthless in combat. Not in other scenarios.Worthless period. Take Child Scent for instance. It gives a restricted form of scent. Your familiar already has scent.
Cursed Wound is another example. It's annoying to PCs, but NPCs will be dead or irrelevant and there are no noncombat applications for it.
Nails is worthless in combat and, again, has no noncombat applications.
These aren't just situational, they're out right garbage.
The difference between the witch and other classes is that the witch doesn't have much leeway for archetypes. Compare Child Scent to pretty much any ability that substitutes for Inspire Courage in a bard archetype and it's obvious the problem isn't that the witch is for NPCs. It's that Paizo needs to pad out their page count.
The witch is a powerful class to begin with, and it's more that Paizo's archetypes, and the hybrid classes, act very much as patches to certain character concepts that are sorely lacking the kind of mechanical support to be viable that other classes like the bard, wizard or barbarian have.
I have played two witches in PF games. The first was in a high level game and he had the awesome power of any high level full caster.
The second was in a low level one off. It quickly came to light that the plot of the mini-adventure involved rescuing a small child who was being hidden right under our noses most of the time. How I rued not taking Child Scent.
These kind of hexes are highly situational but the sessions where Child Scent comes off as a valuable talent will be ones to remember. I likely will take it one day. I'll just take Evil Eye and Cackle first.
My low-level PFS character is a witch. Cause fear matched with slumber gives a lot of opportunities for low-level foes to make saving throws.
Well I mentioned this in another thread but poison use seems to have a lot more function for NPCs than PCs. Any alchemist NPC I've come across has been quite effective. I've been playing Pathfinder for four and a half months now and I've seen just about every class played by one person or another but not one alchemist. Investigators seem to be a lot more popular than alchemists for players where I play at least.
I agree poison is a good example of this. Fortunately for the alchemist there are some interesting archetypes that replace poison.
Reading though most of these responses people seem to have interpreted my questions as 'is the Witch any good/useful/powerful' which simply isn't the case. I know how good the Witch can be as I play one.
While Child Scent could be useful in really specific circumstances, it is just too underpowered compared to the (full-fledged) Keen Scent that a Half-Orc or Orc can pick up. Oddly, Half-Orc has a similar trap option to Child Scent with the Smell Fear feat. Go figure . . . .
(And besides, I have often found it unnecessary to have a Hex to smell kids . . . or some other people, for that matter. P. U.)
I made some adjustments to the witch hexes here. You may find them to be more palatable for PC use.
I've been GMing a campaign for a while now, and I'll be honest.
The witch is the biggest pain in my backside going. Misfortune, Cackle and Evil Eye. [shudder]
The witch is by far the best debuffer, cause she can just...keep...going. Not to mention Healing Hex, or their spells. (When the player actually bothers using action economy on spells, that is)
{. . .}
I don't mind witches having a 'fairy tale' feel, I just with they had some more Glinda the Good options to go along with all the Baba Yaga stuff.
The Witch has a few (to save time, I just linked the Witch page from which the Hexes are linked instead of linking them individually):
Aura of Purity
Cackle (Neutral, but made Good by combining with Fortune) would qualify if only it was reflavored
Curse of Nonviolence (Grand)
Fortune
Healing/Major Healing (the latter is Major)
Lay to Rest (Grand)
Life Giver (Grand)
Peacebond
Soothsayer (Neutral, but made Good by combining with Fortune)
Witch's Bounty (Major; admittedly a bit hard to use in a lot of situations -- you need at least a temporary base in suitable surroundings, which usually can't be underground, and setting it up requires a whole hour)
The Witch also has several Neutral Hexes not listed above that can be used for Good purposes.
Admittedly, the Good stuff is a bit thin in the Major Hexes section (but this has enough Neutral Major Hexes that you'll probably be not too badly off), and the Good stuff doesn't have anything as comprehensive as the Ill Omen (spell) + Misfortune + Evil Eye + Cackle or Soothsayer bundle (Fortune + reflavored Cackle or Soothsayer is only a start). So a non-debuffing Witch that gets all the Good stuff and necessary Neutral stuff available before Major Hex (10th level) has less incentive to refrain from jumping over to a Prestige Class than a debuffing Witch.
Worthless period.
...
These aren't just situational, they're out right garbage.
Of all the feats that I have seen in official Paizo products, I have yet to see some that are utterly worthless. Some aren't likely to be used very frequently, and (sometimes) there are more effective ways for the character to get a similar ability, but a lot depends on the type of campaign you're in, how creative you are with the way you use the feats, etc.
For example, "Cursed Wound" could be used to blackmail an NPC. There are any number of myths out there that involved a king (or someone else) who is cursed and eventually has to pay off the witch to get it removed. A witch could run a whole side-business to bring in extra cash with that.
It's not the most powerful feat you could choose, but in a campaign that is more roleplaying-centered it could prove advantageous. You don't always have to run players who are optimized if you play with a GM who doesn't focus everything on combat.
I have purposely created characters with "useless" abilities in other game systems (ex. Champions) just so I would be forced to find ways to play them while remaining an asset to the group. It's a fun challenge. That kind of thing isn't for everyone, but it can bring some interesting flavor to a game.
The witch is my favourite class to play. The nails and child scent hexes are often cited as evidence the class is rubbish. Sure, those two hexes are not the last word in power, but there are still many hexes which are fantastic.
My 7th level witch has taken the extra hex feat three times and still will not have all the standard hexes I want by the time she reaches 10th level.
Unlike most, I'm not so thrilled with the misfortune hex though. It's okay against things with mind affecting immunity, I guess. Otherwise, if I'm going to target a will save with a hex, slumber is much better. I wish I'd taken fortune instead.