Does feral combat training make a secondary natural weapon a primary attack?

[Carla the Profane]

Question in the title. Let's say I wildshape into a giant octopus. Normally I get 1 bite attack and 8 tentacle attacks at a -5 penalty.

Now, with Feral Combat Training:Tentacle my tentacles are subject to any effects that augment my unarmed strikes.

The monk unarmed strike ability lists that:

Monk unarmed strike class feature wrote:

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.

And:

Monk unarmed strike class feature wrote:

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

To me, this is interpretable as "Use your full strength bonus and the monk unarmed strike's primary-natural-weapon-ness in place of the normal rules for secondary natural attacks". What do you guys think?

[Avoron]

A monk unarmed strike is not a primary natural weapon.
The natural weapon rules are unchanged by Feral Combat Training.
You would almost certainly still take the penalty for a secondary attack.

It is debatable whether you would add your full strength, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't, as that part's just talking about your unarmed strikes not being off-hand attacks.

[Carla the Profane]

Avoron wrote:

A monk unarmed strike is not a primary natural weapon.

Normally, no. Unless you read it this way:

Carla wrote:

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of effects that improve natural weapons

So by that logic, if you consider improving its tentacles from a secondary to a primary attack as being an effect that improves its existing natural weapons then it would count as a primary [natural and manufactured] attack.

that also, if used with say, 8 tentacles in a full attack by a wildshaped druid, would either give him his full base attack bonus with all,

or

give his full base attack bonus on the first attack and a larger penalty for two-weapon-fighting without the BAB or proficiencies?

[Avoron]

I'm not sure how you're getting an improvement from secondary to primary out of that statement.

But as for the rest of that post, no, your natural weapons still follow the normal rules for natural weapons.
Nothing in the text changes them to primary, so they attack at BAB-5, or BAB-2 with multiattack.
You definitely don't get iterative or two-weapon fighting with them.

[Dragonchess Player]

Feral Combat Training wrote:

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.

Treating a secondary natural attack as a primary natural attack is not mentioned as a benefit, so no. If you were a monk, you could treat your natural attack as your unarmed attack for flurry of blows (so if you took Feral Combat Training with your bite, you could make a "flurry of bites" to bite more than once per round).

[Carla the Profane]

Any other ways to get my monk1/druid6 some higher attack bonus? Currently he is hitting +9 x8 1d8+9 using pummeling style and I really feel a lot of missed opportunity going on.

Atm I have:
22 strength (18 base +4 wild shape) = +6
BAB = +4
brawling armor enchant = +2
weapon focus: tentacle = +1
greater magic weapon = +1

=

14

14-5=9

anyone have any ideas? Besides teaming up with a bard buddy :P

[graystone]

Does feral combat training make a secondary natural weapon a primary attack?: no. What it DOES do is allow you to use is use the natural weapon as a monk weapon (see FAQ). So you can flurry it with no minuses at full damage no matter if it's primary or secondary.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Carla the Profane wrote:

Question in the title. Let's say I wildshape into a giant octopus. Normally I get 1 bite attack and 8 tentacle attacks at a -5 penalty.

Now, with Feral Combat Training:Tentacle my tentacles are subject to any effects that augment my unarmed strikes.

The monk unarmed strike ability lists that:

Monk unarmed strike class feature wrote:

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.

And:

Monk unarmed strike class feature wrote:

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

To me, this is interpretable as "Use your full strength bonus and the monk unarmed strike's primary-natural-weapon-ness in place of the normal rules for secondary natural attacks". What do you guys think?

I have found this very frustrating, myself, but changing an off-hand attack into an on-hand (?) attack is not the same thing as turning a secondary natural weapon into a primary one. Some DMs might allow it, but don't make that the basis of a PFS character build, because any DM might overturn it and probably will. FCT would allow you to apply your full strength mod to your tentacles, but you still take the -5.

Monk unarmed strike class feature wrote:

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

You should be warned you have set upon a VERY contentious issue. I seem to favor a more liberal interpretation of this clause than most do, but I don't think that FCT works for this.

So what would that even mean in this case? In a full attack action, you normally can't even use manufactured weapons with the same action slots as your natural weapons. So, if the ability allows you to use your tentacles in your regular, manufactured, iterative attack phase instead of (never in addition to: action economy) your natural attack slots, then 1 tentacle would get a -6, and the rest would get a -10. You're better off taking the -5, even if it does work, so this effect would not be improving or enhancing your natural weapons.

The solution here is to take Multiattack. It reduces the secondary attack penalties to -2. The problem there is that it is nearly impossible to take Multiattack in PFS. In PFS, it can only be taken as a Ranger Bonus Feat after 10 levels in Ranger. That will just not do if you want to be a Monktopus.

For a PFS character, better to develop your Claws, take a level (or more) in Alchemist, and buy yourself a Wand of Monstrous Physique and polymorph into a 4 armed sahaugin. You get only 4 claws and a bite instead of 8 tentacles and a bite, but the 4 Claws are all primary, and polymporphing into a monstrous humanoid lets you keep all your armor and gear, unlike turning into an octopus.

If you wanted to go big monster in PFS, then you might consider focus on Wildshaping into a Triceratops and take Great Cleave.

[Carla the Profane]

For clarity; this character already exists, so no going back there. Also I grabbed the Master of Many Styles archetype, so no flurrying.

Atm I'm just sticking with the -5 penalty and trying to find other ways to boost my attack. My options include, but are not limited to:

-Potions of heroism
-Bull's strength
-BAB increase as I level
-Amulet of mighty fists
-Allies that cast Bless
-Ioun stone

Any other ideas? I'd rather keep my pummeling style and have a lower to-hit because when I do deal damage, it will be plenty. Some kind of high-risk high-reward melee striker.

[Chess Pwn]

Belt of str and flanking.

[Carla the Profane]

Belt of STR doesnt stack with Bull's Strength. Also, flanking will be since since i'm large and have 20ft reach.

[Avoron]

You said -5 penalty. Do you have Multiattack?
That's the first thing I would get.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Carla the Profane wrote:

For clarity; this character already exists, so no going back there. Also I grabbed the Master of Many Styles archetype, so no flurrying.

Atm I'm just sticking with the -5 penalty and trying to find other ways to boost my attack. My options include, but are not limited to:

-Potions of heroism
-Bull's strength
-BAB increase as I level
-Amulet of mighty fists
-Allies that cast Bless
-Ioun stone

Any other ideas? I'd rather keep my pummeling style and have a lower to-hit because when I do deal damage, it will be plenty. Some kind of high-risk high-reward melee striker.

I do have some ideas.

Have someone make Octopus-shaped armor for you to don when you switch into octopus form. Make it Spiked Armor. As a giant octopus, you have Grab and Constrict, so you can initiate a Grapple with every hit and do extra Grapple damage upon initiation. You can catch and release, using grappling as a way of inflicting a whole lot more damage (You probably already know that, though.). If you have armor spikes, they will do an extra 1d8 damage (+St and other bonuses, of course) with every successful Grab. Natural Armor bonuses to AC stack with manufactured armor bonuses to AC. You might invest in a Wand of Swift Girding and either take a level in a class that has that spell or give the Wand to someone else in the party who does, requesting they Gird you in your armor as soon as you transform. You might then invest in a Wand of Lead Blades and cast them on your Armor Spikes, upping the damage to 2d6.

My favorite feat to take as a MOMS Monk is Snake Fang. If you take Feral Combat Training, you can make your Attacks of Opportunity with your Tentacles, gaining your Grab, Constrict, and Armor Spike Damage every time.

You should have a look at Improved Natural Attack if you haven't already done so.

You haven't mentioned whether this is a PFS character.

It might help if we saw your choice of levels, feats, and special abilities in your build.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Carla the Profane wrote:

Belt of STR doesnt stack with Bull's Strength. Also, flanking will be since since i'm large and have 20ft reach.

It still might be worthwhile to have a Belt of Strength even if you can cast Bull Strength. The Belt is permanent, but the spell gives a +4. A +4 Belt is expensive. Also, rather than buy a +2 Belt and save up to make it +4, you might go the cheaper option of buying a +2 Belt of Strength then adding +2 Dex and then +2 Con. Even when you do cast Bull Strength, the +2 Dex and/or Con will stack with the +4 Strength.

If you take a level in Alchemist, you can make St, Dex or Con mutagens. Those grant Alchemal, not Enhancement, bonuses to your ability scores, and therefore DO stack.

This is probably irrelevant to your build, but the Boiling Blood Spell grants a +2 Ferocity Bonus to Strength (orcs and half orcs only), and that also stacks with either Bull Strength or a Belt of Strength.

[Chess Pwn]

Carla the Profane wrote:

Belt of STR doesnt stack with Bull's Strength. Also, flanking will be since since i'm large and have 20ft reach.

I know it doesn't stack. but you asked for different ways to boost your to hit and you hadn't listed either of these.

[Carla the Profane]

Avoron wrote:

You said -5 penalty. Do you have Multiattack?

That's the first thing I would get.

it's for PFS, which only lasts to lvl 12 and by the time wild shape will grant me multiattack i'll be way past that point, alas.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

This is probably irrelevant to your build, but the Boiling Blood Spell grants a +2 Ferocity Bonus to Strength (orcs and half orcs only), and that also stacks with either Bull Strength or a Belt of Strength.

That's actually not a bad idea to buy a scroll from and pass it to my party's bard.

My character looks something like this atm:

Dizzy Dinkletrinket
M Half-orc druid 6 / monk 1

stats:
18
14
14
12
14
7

52 hp
bab: +4
AC: 19
Saves: F11/R7/W11
monk (MoMS / Sacred Mountain) 1
druid (Blight druid) 6

feats
1 additional traits (mindlessly cruel, fate's favored, quain martial artist, reactionary), pummeling style, stunning fist, endurance
3 weapon focus: tentacle
5 feral combat training: tentacle
7 natural spell

spells I use alot:
bristle, frigid touch, ice armor, rage(domain), greater magic fang, greater longstrider, sky swim, bull's strength, barkskin, animal aspect:gorilla

relevant items: jingasa ot fortunate soldier, +1 brawling leather lamellar armor, monk's robe, cloak of prot. +1, eyes of the eagle.

Next lvl(s) I plan to take pummeling charge, toughness, horn of the criosphinx as feats. I plan to save up for deliquesent's gloves and an Amulet of mighty fists.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Having a favored animal to turn into is not a bad strategy at all, but in PFS, I recommend against trying to be a Monktopus. It breaks my heart to say it, but without Multiattack, I don't think it's a good idea. In PFS because you can't take Multiattack (pretty much), and even if 1 referee is letting it go, another may tell you you can't breathe air as an octopus. Fortunately, you are a level 6 Druid, and Air Breathing is a spell you can cast.

I recommend you retrain Feral Combat Training and Weapon Focus to something like Claw, Bite, or Gore instead. Most animals you might turn into have Claw, Bite, or Gore Attacks. Develop MOMS to get Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes, so FCT will let you use your natural Attack for your Attack of Opportunity. Rather than turn into an octopus, consider turning into a dinosaur, a tiger, or something.

I'd consider taking 2 levels in Ranger and Improved Natural Weapon for your Combat Style Feat to up your damage even more. Since I'm advising 3 more levels in different classes, I also recommend Shaping Focus so that your nonDruid levels will count as Druid levels for the purposes of WildShaping.

Bear in mind that you lose access to a lot of your equipment while in animal form. You might consider having 2 kits of equipment, 1 for when you are in Wild Shape. You might consider some kind of Barding. The no-custom-magic-items rule pertains to the enchantments themselves, not to whether the armor was made for a human, a horse, an octopus, or a Tyrannosaurus.

I have further recommendations depending on which way you want to go with your character.

[NikolaiJuno]

Warpriest(Sacred Fist)if you want flurry and
Bloodrager (Rageshaper) for extra damage.

Rageshaper+ Feral Combat Training, Monk damage+Wild Shape= Tasty.

[Carla the Profane]

First off all I'd like to say thanks, guys, as you've given me food for thought.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Bear in mind that you lose access to a lot of your equipment while in animal form. You might consider having 2 kits of equipment, 1 for when you are in Wild Shape. You might consider some kind of Barding. The no-custom-magic-items rule pertains to the enchantments themselves, not to whether the armor was made for a human, a horse, an octopus, or a Tyrannosaurus.

Monktopus is what i wanted, so im going to stick to it and see if i can salvage it. Call me stubborn :-)

Barding; Thats what ice armor and a foldable bathtub+cteate water is for; free breastplate barding yay.

Also, im planning to pick up a polymorphic pouch to still have acces to my items in wild shape.

But alas, I don't think multiclassing even more will do me any good: i need my second level of monk for pummelling charge and toughness, and i need 8 levels of druid for access to the strong jaw spell and the 8th-level destruction domain power, which will allow me to automatically confirm any 20 that i roll on a full attack with 8 dice (more if hasted).

So what im looking for here is mainly items that can help me up my attack or give me some other passive bonus that can up my survivability..

[zza ni]

the OP question was allready adressed in the Q&A of the feat:
here
(it is also added to the pfsrd site which normaly peple bring links from. and i was wondering why the op didn't do it this time here )

"The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon."

so no. you don't get to flurry with all 8 arms and mouth.
if you wnat the flurry bonus of full str and better attack you only get the flurry number of attacks

[Bandw2]

also, note that I believe feral combat training selects only 1 of your natural weapons and thus does not effect all 8 of your tentacle attacks.

[claudekennilol]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Having a favored animal to turn into is not a bad strategy at all, but in PFS, I recommend against trying to be a Monktopus. It breaks my heart to say it, but without Multiattack, I don't think it's a good idea. In PFS because you can't take Multiattack (pretty much), and even if 1 referee is letting it go, another may tell you you can't breathe air as an octopus. Fortunately, you are a level 6 Druid, and Air Breathing is a spell you can cast.

I recommend you retrain Feral Combat Training and Weapon Focus to something like Claw, Bite, or Gore instead. Most animals you might turn into have Claw, Bite, or Gore Attacks. Develop MOMS to get Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes, so FCT will let you use your natural Attack for your Attack of Opportunity. Rather than turn into an octopus, consider turning into a dinosaur, a tiger, or something.

I'd consider taking 2 levels in Ranger and Improved Natural Weapon for your Combat Style Feat to up your damage even more. Since I'm advising 3 more levels in different classes, I also recommend Shaping Focus so that your nonDruid levels will count as Druid levels for the purposes of WildShaping.

Bear in mind that you lose access to a lot of your equipment while in animal form. You might consider having 2 kits of equipment, 1 for when you are in Wild Shape. You might consider some kind of Barding. The no-custom-magic-items rule pertains to the enchantments themselves, not to whether the armor was made for a human, a horse, an octopus, or a Tyrannosaurus.

I have further recommendations depending on which way you want to go with your character.

Why wouldn't he be able to take attacks of opportunity with natural attacks without FCT?

[Carla the Profane]

zza ni wrote:

the OP question was allready adressed in the Q&A of the feat:

here
(it is also added to the pfsrd site which normaly peple bring links from. and i was wondering why the op didn't do it this time here )

"The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon."

so no. you don't get to flurry with all 8 arms and mouth.
if you wnat the flurry bonus of full str and better attack you only get the flurry number of attacks

Im not flurrying, im full attacking. Your point is moot.

Bandw2 wrote:

also, note that I believe feral combat training selects only 1 of your natural weapons and thus does not effect all 8 of your tentacle attacks.

I believe it lets you select a type of natural weapon, not one of your weapons; you don't have to specify 'left claw', the same as with weapon focus (as in weapon focus:claw).

I agree this is a rather poorly worded ability, though.

[NikolaiJuno]

A related question can you use Improved Natural Attack to enhance the natural attack monk damage with Feral Combat Training, or does Improved Natural Attack apply first then get overwritten by Monk damage?

[graystone]

NikolaiJuno wrote:

A related question can you use Improved Natural Attack to enhance the natural attack monk damage with Feral Combat Training, or does Improved Natural Attack apply first then get overwritten by Monk damage?

From my reading of the rules it's "Improved Natural Attack apply first then get overwritten by Monk damage".

[Scott Wilhelm]

claudekennilol wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Having a favored animal to turn into is not a bad strategy at all, but in PFS, I recommend against trying to be a Monktopus. It breaks my heart to say it, but without Multiattack, I don't think it's a good idea. In PFS because you can't take Multiattack (pretty much), and even if 1 referee is letting it go, another may tell you you can't breathe air as an octopus. Fortunately, you are a level 6 Druid, and Air Breathing is a spell you can cast.

I recommend you retrain Feral Combat Training and Weapon Focus to something like Claw, Bite, or Gore instead. Most animals you might turn into have Claw, Bite, or Gore Attacks. Develop MOMS to get Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes, so FCT will let you use your natural Attack for your Attack of Opportunity. Rather than turn into an octopus, consider turning into a dinosaur, a tiger, or something.

I'd consider taking 2 levels in Ranger and Improved Natural Weapon for your Combat Style Feat to up your damage even more. Since I'm advising 3 more levels in different classes, I also recommend Shaping Focus so that your nonDruid levels will count as Druid levels for the purposes of WildShaping.

Bear in mind that you lose access to a lot of your equipment while in animal form. You might consider having 2 kits of equipment, 1 for when you are in Wild Shape. You might consider some kind of Barding. The no-custom-magic-items rule pertains to the enchantments themselves, not to whether the armor was made for a human, a horse, an octopus, or a Tyrannosaurus.

I have further recommendations depending on which way you want to go with your character.

Why wouldn't he be able to take attacks of opportunity with natural attacks without FCT?

Snake Fang would let him make an unarmed attack of opportunity whenever someone attacks him and misses + an immediate action unarmed strike in the event that that AoO hits.

It's not illegal for him to make attacks of opportunity with tentacles, but he can't use tentacles with the Snake Fang Attack of Opportunity hair trigger. Feral Combat Training lets him do that.

[claudekennilol]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Snake Fang would let him make an unarmed attack of opportunity whenever someone attacks him and misses + an immediate action unarmed strike in the event that that AoO hits.

It's not illegal for him to make attacks of opportunity with tentacles, but he...

Thanks, that explains what I was missing.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Carla the Profane wrote:

First off all I'd like to say thanks, guys, as you've given me food for thought.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Bear in mind that you lose access to a lot of your equipment while in animal form. You might consider having 2 kits of equipment, 1 for when you are in Wild Shape. You might consider some kind of Barding. The no-custom-magic-items rule pertains to the enchantments themselves, not to whether the armor was made for a human, a horse, an octopus, or a Tyrannosaurus.

Monktopus is what i wanted, so im going to stick to it and see if i can salvage it. Call me stubborn :-)

Barding; Thats what ice armor and a foldable bathtub+cteate water is for; free breastplate barding yay.

Also, im planning to pick up a polymorphic pouch to still have acces to my items in wild shape.

But alas, I don't think multiclassing even more will do me any good: i need my second level of monk for pummelling charge and toughness, and i need 8 levels of druid for access to the strong jaw spell and the 8th-level destruction domain power, which will allow me to automatically confirm any 20 that i roll on a full attack with 8 dice (more if hasted).

So what im looking for here is mainly items that can help me up my attack or give me some other passive bonus that can up my survivability..

Does the Armor you create with the Ice Armor Spell come with Armor Spikes? Octopi have Grab, spiked armor is a gimme for more damage.

Ice Breastplate sounds good. For a Druid, I was thinking more along the lines of Spiked Lamellar Horn armor. Acquire a Wand of Swift Girding and either lend it whoever your PFS Magus, Paladin, or Wizard is that day, or take a level in Magus or Paladin yourself. Okay, I just looked and saw you Charisma-dumped, so not Paladin. Levels in Magus won't improved your BAB, but that might be mitigated by Arcane Pool, and you can use Spell Combat to Buff yourself in Combat. With 3 levels in Magus, you can take the Wand Wielder Arcana, which will let you use wands to buff yourself in combat, and if you are taking levels in Druid, Magus, and Ranger, that's a lot of Wands you might use.

Rather than 8 levels in Druid to get Strong Jaw, consider a Wand of Strong Jaw. I think you should multiclass a lot.

Lord Markov's Monktopus, the one who introduced me to the idea, took levels in Barbarian to up his Strength and bring up his BAB fast.

1 level in Alchemist will give you Mutagens, which will let you pump up your Strength 4 points for 10 minutes.

As an octopus, you have Grab and Constrict. That qualifies you for the Final Embrace Feat. That will give your Bite Attack Grab and Constrict, too, and your Bite Attack doesn't have a -5.

You might learn Quick Dirty Trick and make your opponents Blind as an Attack Action. They'll lose their Dex Mods so you hit them easier.

You might consider Greater Grapple, Expert Captor, and Potion Glutton to quickly give your character a Grapple Build.

Graystone and I disagree about Improved Natural Attack stacking with Feral Combat Training. I am completely convinced it is square with the RAW, and you are well within your rights as a Paizo customer to assert your rights this way. In case your referee balks, you can find powerful arguments on these threads in support of these rules.

Remember as part of your full attack action you can still make unarmed Strikes. If your DM attempts to impose the penalty that your natural attacks become secondary, your tentacles are secondary already.

Octopi have low-light vision. Take Blind-Fighting (prereq) and Moonlight Stalker: +2 attack and damage. Then you'll be casting Obscuring Mist a lot, but oh well.

This is pretty scattershot advice, but I hope some of it hits something that helps.

[graystone]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Graystone and I disagree about Improved Natural Attack stacking with Feral Combat Training. I am completely convinced it is square with the RAW, and you are well within your rights as a Paizo customer to assert your rights this way. In case your referee balks, you can find powerful arguments on these threads in support of these rules.

Yep, we disagree and that is a very good reason NOT to take that feat. It's a feat combo you can expect table variation on and you may find yourself with a feat you can't benefit from since this is PFS. If you can expect to play under the same DM all the time, find out how they see the RAW. If you're expecting to see more than one DM, it's best to pass on it.

[Scott Wilhelm]

graystone wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Graystone and I disagree about Improved Natural Attack stacking with Feral Combat Training. I am completely convinced it is square with the RAW, and you are well within your rights as a Paizo customer to assert your rights this way. In case your referee balks, you can find powerful arguments on these threads in support of these rules.

Yep, we disagree and that is a very good reason NOT to take that feat. It's a feat combo you can expect table variation on and you may find yourself with a feat you can't benefit from since this is PFS. If you can expect to play under the same DM all the time, find out how they see the RAW. If you're expecting to see more than one DM, it's best to pass on it.

The fact that there is significant disagreement is a reason not to try to combine FCT and INA. I consider it highly defensible by RAW, and I have vetted it in my area with sever PFS referees, including my Venture Captain, so am confident myself.

But the OP has some thinking to do. Look for the Thread Improved Natural Attack and Feral Combat Training. Review the arguments for and against. Look up the relevant rules. Decide what's right and whether you'd fight for it.

[BigNorseWolf]

Generally if a product doesn't tell you that it regrows hair then it doesn't.

[Carla the Profane]

Im trying to keep this build as un-debatable as possible and im having problems with that as-is... My PFS environment is pretty straightforward in preventing rules debates...

...So Scott Wilhelm, while you give a lot of great suggestions Im afraid I must politely decline some of them. ;)

That being said, I find a level of barbarian very tempting atm. Either that of a cavalier with that order that allows a free grapple attempt on a full attack.

But keep in mind 8 levels of druid is mainly for the 8th level destruction domain power: automatically confirming every 20 I roll is a huge deal when i'm rolling 8+ attack dice every time, not only because it will make my whole pummeling strike crit but also because confirming a crit with a relatively low bab is a crime to pull off.

I also think im getting that ioun stone that gives +1 to attack rolls.

[NikolaiJuno]

Carla the Profane wrote:

That being said, I find a level of barbarian very tempting atm.

Generally Monk and Barbarian don't stack do to alignment conflicts. Bloodrager however has no alignment restriction, and in addition to a similar rage benefit can double you damage die with 2 levels of the Rageshaper archetype.

[Avoron]

1. It doesn't double your damage die, it just increases it by a step.
2. It takes 4 levels, not 2.
3. It doesn't apply to Wild Shape, which is a supernatural ability, not a polymorph spell or a bloodrage power.

Also, stacking monk and barbarian just takes a trait.

[Scott Wilhelm]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Generally if a product doesn't tell you that it regrows hair then it doesn't.

Gernerally, if a product DOES tell you it regrows hair, then it doesn't!

[Scott Wilhelm]

Carla the Profane wrote:

Im trying to keep this build as un-debatable as possible and im having problems with that as-is... My PFS environment is pretty straightforward in preventing rules debates...

...So Scott Wilhelm, while you give a lot of great suggestions Im afraid I must politely decline some of them. ;)

That being said, I find a level of barbarian very tempting atm. Either that of a cavalier with that order that allows a free grapple attempt on a full attack.

But keep in mind 8 levels of druid is mainly for the 8th level destruction domain power: automatically confirming every 20 I roll is a huge deal when i'm rolling 8+ attack dice every time, not only because it will make my whole pummeling strike crit but also because confirming a crit with a relatively low bab is a crime to pull off.

I also think im getting that ioun stone that gives +1 to attack rolls.

NP, like I said, I was giving you a whole lot of suggestions scattershot. You'd be hard-pressed to do everything I said.