| BlingerBunny |
I feel a bit of dejavu in this because there was another advice column with the same scenario. My GM is running Rise of the Runelords, my Cleric was killed, and now I'm making a fighter.
I want to tank the best I can, and I was guided into Reach Fighting, but I'm not sure where to start with stats, though I know that dexterity helps the build.
| Serisan |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's amazing how many times I've linked this character now.
Swap Half-Elf for Half-Orc and you're set. Otherwise, if you're doing full Orc, just make some minor stat adjustments. Feel free to drop the Animal Companion from the Wild Child archetype if you prefer to just have the base class.
Magda Luckbender
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@OP: Learn to effectively use Reach Tactics. Your ability to use good tactics with your new orc reach fighter may make the difference between success and failure.
| BlingerBunny |
Just take a level of Brawler instead of pushing the Int up. You get this at level 1 of Brawler.
Quote:Brawler's Cunning (Ex): If the brawler's Intelligence score is less than 13, it counts as 13 for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of combat feats.
That's actually not a bad idea at all. It gives me several other benefits as well.
Fruian Thistlefoot
|
Gonna try my best to give you the skinny on this without giving away anything.
First your looking at reaching level 15-17 (depends if your group) But mine ended on 17.
2ndly after book 3 your going to be dealing with enemies that are Huge+ this limits your combat maneuvers. Well maneuvers tend to get a bad return unless you go balls deep into building for a single maneuver. So going Combat Expertise might be better suited in another campaign.
This does not mean however you can't go with a Reach fighter. I would just focus on damage.
Combat reflexes, Power attack, Weapon focus, Weapon specialization, Big Game Hunter will be your bread and butter for dealing damage. Grab so survival feats like Iron will and Toughness and you will do just fine. Poke them down and punish them when they move through your Threatened squares. I also recommend investing in a way to enlarge yourself on a regular. 50 foot circle of threaten is just awesome.
Charon's Little Helper
|
So things like Spring Attack and Lunge would be helpful?
Lunge yes (though not amazing once you get enlarge consistently since more reach gives diminishing returns) - Spring Attack no. Spring Attack is simply too situational to be worth how many feats it takes to get for all but extremely specific builds.
Are you planning on the Phalanx Soldier archetype?
| lemeres |
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So things like Spring Attack and Lunge would be helpful?
Lunge is extremely help for reach. It doesn't change your reach for AoO's (since it ends when your turn ends), but it does allow you to position things so it is easier to get AoO's.
Normally, when you attack an enemy, then end up 10' away. That means they only need to use a 5' step to reach you, which means they avoid AoO's and they get their full attack.
With lunge, enemies end up 15' away from you. They often have to move 10' to reach you, and that means they draw an AoO and they have to spend a move action (so no full attack that turn unless they have pounce). That is good offense and defense. Most enemies that try to attack you are almost guaranteed to get smacked with an AoO at least once before they get near you.
And even if you can't get that strategy up (facing off against giants, for instance, who have longer reach), you can still full attack anything in a circle 45' wide (10' reachx2 + 5' lungex2 + 5'x2, your 5' square). So that is always good for a melee character, no?
| born_of_fire |
Lore Warden will give you Combat Expertise at level 2 over and above your bonus feat. If you haven't already chosen an archetype, it's one of the better Fighter ones IMHO and would likely serve the build quite well. Extra skill points are always nice but you also mad bonuses to combat maneuvers over time and a knowledge based favoured enemy style mechanic for extra goodness.
| lemeres |
And just to throw this out there (little thematic reason, but hey, it is useful)- Mutation fighter from ACG can be rather nice.
It gets the alchemist's mutagen (so +4 str, +2 natural armor) on top of normal weapon training, but it also gets a limited number of alchemist discoveries starting at level 7. The big one is the 'wings' discovery. Yes, you can fly (for minutes per level- which, considering the fact that most fights last less than a minutes, means 7 fights from the get go, and it grows from there).
Overall, a simple change, but hey, you hit harder and you can fly without bugging the wizard for a spell. Not bad overall.
| BlingerBunny |
So assuming I stay with the base fighter, feats would go like this.
1-Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
2-Weapon Focus - Horsechopper
3-Toughness
4-Weapon Specialization - Horsechopper
5-Big Game Hunter
6-Stand Still
How's that look so far? I imagine Combat Patrol would be good too and I need Iron Will. There's also Greater Weapon Focus, and Lunge. So I imagine 7 and 8 should be Lunge and GWF, or should I swap Toughness and Lunge?
Fruian Thistlefoot
|
No on the horse chopper. Terrible weapon overall.
Big game hunter can be put off to about level 7-9 for this campaign.
Try
1 Power attack, Combat reflexes
2 Toughness
3 Weapon Focus- Pick a good weapon with reach.
4 Weapon specialization- same as above weapon
5 Iron Will
6
7 Big game hunter
8 Improved Critical- same as Specialization
9 Greater weapon Focus
10 Improved Iron Will
11
12- Greater Weapon Specialization
Lunge on a reach weapon isn't as good as it is on a great-sword user.
I like Lorewarden archetype BUT sadly the hit to your AC will not be so welcome in Rise of the Runelords as things usally hit hard and making it easier to hit you is a bad Idea.
I do like the mutagen Warrior as it gives a strong boost. and would work well in this campaign.
| fretgod99 |
Well what would you guys recommend for a Polearm? The only candidates for high damage are the Guisarme and the Ranseur, that I can see.
Don't worry so much about the damage dice. Damage comes from static bonuses like high STR, Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, etc.
Really, I'd suggest any weapon that can do multiple damage types. Or anything you think would be cool to play. Honestly, worry the most about that second one.
Lucerne Hammer does B or P. d12 but only 20/x2. Also gets brace.
Bec de Corbin does B or P. d10 20/x3. Also gets brace.
Horsechopper does P or S. d10 20/x3. (I know it was suggested not to use, but other than having goblinstank on it, I don't see why it's really any different than anything else. It's a halberd with reach.)
Naginata only does S. Only d8, but 20/x4.
*shrug*
Just scroll through here and find a martial reach weapon you like.
Dwarven Longhammers are Lucerne Hammers but better. 2d6 and 20/x3, but no brace.
Or, you could be awesome and use a Dwarven Dorn-Dergar. Be warned though, you have to be pretty sweet to use one of those. d10 and only 20/x2. But you can adjust between reach and adjacent. With a feat, you can do so as a swift action. With a few more, you can use it as a one-handed weapon, if that suits your fancy. (Not a polearm. But really, that's your loss. :P)
Magda Luckbender
|
@BlingerBunny: Your damage will be mostly through static bonuses. Weapon damage barely matters. There's little difference between inflicting 1D8+26 HP damage and 2D6+26 HP damage, which is about your range of choices. As such, damage type and critical threat range matter far more. Horsechopper is a fine reach weapon, Fruian was probably just bothered by the goblin stink ;-)
What does matter is how many attacks you get with your reach weapon. The biggest advantage of reach weaponry is the defensive boost it gives your team. The second biggest advantage of reach weaponry is the extra attacks & damage from AoOs. How many attacks you get is largely decided by how good are your (and your team's!) reach tactics. Good tactics can get you several free attacks, in the form of AoOs, each fight. Extra attacks end fights sooner.
Charon's Little Helper
|
What does matter is how many attacks you get with your reach weapon. The biggest advantage of reach weaponry is the defensive boost it gives your team. The second biggest advantage of reach weaponry is the extra attacks & damage from AoOs. How many attacks you get is largely decided by how good are your (and your team's!) reach tactics. Good tactics can get you several free attacks, in the form of AoOs, each fight. Extra attacks end fights sooner.
In addition - while I know that many don't like it as it doesn't work vs really big beasties - I've always been a fan of tripping with reach weapons.
As someone charges towards either you or past you towards your allies - you can use up their whole turn with a successful trip at reach. It then also wastes much of their next turn as well as they get up with a move action standing up. This either gives you another AOO, or if you moved back 5 ft during your turn, their entire turn is wasted as they can't 5ft step to swing at anyone.
| BlingerBunny |
Alright! I've decided! I'm going to go the sword & board build with the Phalanx Fighter archetype. It lets me turn a polearm into a one-handed weapon, a shield for dealing with guys up next to me.
Any issues with this plan?
I imagine this build will work with some adjustments.
Assumed Best Two-Weapon Fighter Build
Fruian Thistlefoot
|
well in rise of the runelords you will find a few Glaives-Guisarme and the Ranseur weapon drops. Horse Chopper does smell like goblins. I know a +1 Adamantine Flaming Ranseur drops somewhere in the books. As well as plenty of +1 and +2 versions. Might be a safe bet if your group relys on a more strict magical market and relies on drops.
| BlingerBunny |
I'm looking at the horsechopper for reach and an optional damage type. I know goblins are not welcome in the campaign, but we've already got one who has convinced everyone it's actually a teddy bear (It's a bard with a teddy bear costume), except for the Inquisitor, aka Fire Marshall Bill, who doesn't really care as long as the goblin isn't being a detriment to the group.
Also, we're using the all-in-one big book that Paizo made after the individual campaign books were going out of print. I'm really glad I bought it. The campaign is fun.
Fruian Thistlefoot
|
Alright! I've decided! I'm going to go the sword & board build with the Phalanx Fighter archetype. It lets me turn a polearm into a one-handed weapon, a shield for dealing with guys up next to me.
Any issues with this plan?
I imagine this build will work with some adjustments.
Assumed Best Two-Weapon Fighter Build
The best Sword and Board is a ranger/or slayer hands down. If you want to do a sword and board as a fighter I prefer the Two weapon warrior archetype.
Defensive Flurry (Ex) and Doublestrike (Ex) are amazing abilites for both defense and Offense.Now about the guide I have a few thing:
Double Slice is a bad First level feat. The feat its self isn't very good until your strength is a 20+. I suggest it typically a little later in builds.
Shield Focus- Gag me with a spoon. If you want +1 to armor feat wise Dodge>Iron Hide(natural armor)>Shield focus. Go dodge every time.
In Rise of the Runelords beyond level 7 your going to fight plenty of large+ creatures....like 75% of your encounters will be Large+...BIG GAME HUNTER...can not stress it enough...its +1 to hit and +2 to damage...On BOTH weapons. That is like gaining weapon focus and weapon specialization on 2 entirely different weapons.
Magda Luckbender
|
Alright! I've decided! I'm going to go the sword & board build with the Phalanx Fighter archetype. It lets me turn a polearm into a one-handed weapon, a shield for dealing with guys up next to me.
Any issues with this plan?
I imagine this build will work with some adjustments.
Assumed Best Two-Weapon Fighter Build
Sounds like an excellent approach! This gives you flexible combat options:
* In default Defensive mode you wield sword and pole arm. You will be a sturdy and durable defender.
* In Offensive mode you stow (or drop) the shield. When you wield your pole arm in two hands you do about 30% more damage, because your Strength and Power Attack damage bonuses are 1.5x.
* You make the tactical decision whether you need to be in Offensive or Defensive mode. Sometimes the extra bit of AC is more important, other times the extra damage is more important. You will generally choose Defensive mode when you are personally in serious danger, and Offensive mode when you are trying to protect others.
* Like Fruian says, after level 7 in RotRL you will mostly be fighting Large, Huge, and Gargantuan things, so Big Game Hunter will be a great feat for you. You also want all the reach you can get. Having reach lets you avoid giant AoOs, which hurt quite a lot. Having even more reach (i.e. also getting an ally to Enlarge you) lets you take reach AoOs versus giants. When I ran RotRL I equipped many of the giants with reach weapons. A Rune Giant with a pole arm has 40' reach. Hope your GM is not so cruel.
* You'll rarely need to worry about shield bashing adjacent stuff. It just won't come up much. It is handy to threaten adjacent, although not nearly as important as it seems like it might be. This is fine, because it means you don't have to invest resources in getting good with a shield bash. You inflict about 2x more damage with your pole arm, so a shield bash is act of opportunism or desperation.
* After your 3rd level as a Phalanx Fighter perhaps consider taking additional levels in another class. This is because Phalanx Fighter's big payoff is the ability to fight shield & polearm. Or, you could be like Roy Greenhilt and remain a single class fighter your whole career.
* Be aware that 'the best' two-weapon fighter (TWF) is weaker than 'the best' two handed weapon fighter(THWF) build. In certain circumstances the TWF can do slightly more damage than THWF, but usually the TWHF does much more damage. Your trick is that you carry a shield and wield a reach weapon - that's quite rare and hard to do in Pathfinder. Note that the mathematical model used to calculate combat effectiveness in Pathfinder ignores reach and AoOs. In theory a Greatsword (2D6 HP damage) fighter does more damage than a Longspear fighter, but in practice the Longspear (1D8 HP damage) fighter does more damage because AoOs.
| BlingerBunny |
I think I should explain my character's background now.
He's a janitor for an overlord, and he's currently on vacation. His boss mentioned something about a cube of jello, trial period, cost effective, something like that.
As a dungeon janitor, you learn that some heroes don't stick around to make sure some critters are actually dead. So ya need ta make sure before ya get ta cleanin' and end up being the one cleaned up by the next janitor.
Reach fighting helps because dying critters tend to fight harder.
So far he's only on vacation, not sure how long, and this seems like a fun adventure, though he's still got a habit of cleaning up messes when he's done.
As far as I can tell he's going to be the awkwardly social, simple-minded fighter/janitor. He won't know a lot about some things, but he'll know a little about a lot of things, like how skeletons are easier to clean up than zombies, don't smell as bad either.
Here's a plan!
Phalanx Fighter Archetype
01 - Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
02 - Weapon Focus (pole-arm)
03 - Weapon Specialization (pole-arm)
04 - Shield Focus
05 - Improved Shield Bash
06 - Missile Shield
07 - Shield Slam
08 - Disruptive
09 - Big Game Hunter
10 - Spellbreaker
11 - Shield Master
12 - Ray Shield
Refining if needed.
| BlingerBunny |
I think I should explain my character's background now.
He's a janitor for an overlord, and he's currently on vacation. His boss mentioned something about a cube of jello, trial period, cost effective, something like that.
As a dungeon janitor, you learn that some heroes don't stick around to make sure some critters are actually dead. So ya need ta make sure before ya get ta cleanin' and end up being the one cleaned up by the next janitor.
Reach fighting helps because dying critters tend to fight harder.
So far he's only on vacation, not sure how long, and this seems like a fun adventure, though he's still got a habit of cleaning up messes when he's done.
As far as I can tell he's going to be the awkwardly social, simple-minded fighter/janitor. He won't know a lot about some things, but he'll know a little about a lot of things, like how skeletons are easier to clean up than zombies, don't smell as bad either.
Here's a plan!
Phalanx Fighter Archetype
01 - Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
02 - Weapon Focus (pole-arm)
03 - Weapon Specialization (pole-arm)
04 - Shield Focus
05 - Improved Shield Bash
06 - Missile Shield
07 - Shield Slam
08 - Disruptive
09 - Big Game Hunter
10 - Spellbreaker
11 - Shield Master
12 - Ray ShieldRefining if needed.
Note: The reason why I took out two weapon fighting is because I can't imagine how I'd get it to work. You've got a shield for guys who get uncomfortably close, and a reach weapon that you struggle using up close.
| BlingerBunny |
You can't take specialization till level 4.
Drop shield focus for Iron will. Will saves are important. The +1 AC with a shield out is not worth it. Its not a Pre-req.
Improved shield bash? Are you going to be Two weapon fighting? or using the shield when they get close?
Shield Focus is a pre-req for missile shield, which in turn is a pre-req for ray shield, and Improved Shield Bash prevents me from losing the shield's ac bonus when I need to shield bash, it's also a pre-req for Shield slam which is a free bullrush to push people back after I make a successful shield bash.
Magda Luckbender
|
It's pretty rare that a spell caster will use rays on you. It happens, but not often. Once you demonstrate resistance to rays any caster can switch to equally effective non-ray spells. I think you'd get much more benefit from, say, Toughness, than from the entire Ray Shield sequence. 12 extra HP are always useful, while ray shield is only useful when a caster zaps you with a ray.
Go ahead and take the Improved Shield Bash line. It may come in handy. Most of the time, though, you'll want to whack things with your primary weapon, as that does far more damage. There's a trade off between specialization and flexibility.
| BlingerBunny |
Okay, realized that I don't get certain bonuses unless I ready a weapon with the brace ability. So I'm going with Polearm Master, and forgoing the shield idea.
I'll be going with Polearm Master
1 Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
2 Weapon Focus (Ranseur)
3 Toughness
4 Weapon Specialization (Ranseur)
5 Iron Will
6 Stand Still
I'll eventually build up into Pin Down and Combat Patrol, but my 7th level will definitely be Big Game Hunter, so basically noone can move without my say so, and if they get too close, I'll smack them with spiked armor.
Fruian Thistlefoot
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Much better mechanically built this last one .
Other archetypes that fit the flavor your looking for are dragoon and two handed fighter. I like the dragons ability to attack at both range and close with the same weapon and count enchantment of the weaopn on both kinds of attacks. You would only need the spiked gauntlet till level 9 after that the ranceur works at both ranges without any negatives. Two handed fighter is all about damage.
| ShroudedInLight |
My personal vote goes to a Bloodrager.
You go for the archetype that allows you to take two bloodlines and go Aberrant and Black Blooded, then you take both reach upgrades.
Then you can cast Enlarge person or long arms on yourself in the first round of combat (potentially quickened with a lesser metamagic rod). Once you hit level 11 you do not have to choose between long arms and enlarge person since you can do both.
Then you grab Combat Patrol and wield a reach weapon.
5+5+5+5+5+5 is 30ft of range with only one spell cast, 35 with two...and 40 once you hit level 10. 45 at 15, 50ft at level 20.
And you can move around to make these attacks thanks to combat patrol, which basically allows you to move up to 40ft and hit out at up to 50ft whenever someone provokes.
90ft of range is a bit silly XD
| BlingerBunny |
My personal vote goes to a Bloodrager.
You go for the archetype that allows you to take two bloodlines and go Aberrant and Black Blooded, then you take both reach upgrades.
Then you can cast Enlarge person or long arms on yourself in the first round of combat (potentially quickened with a lesser metamagic rod). Once you hit level 11 you do not have to choose between long arms and enlarge person since you can do both.
Then you grab Combat Patrol and wield a reach weapon.
5+5+5+5+5+5 is 30ft of range with only one spell cast, 35 with two...and 40 once you hit level 10. 45 at 15, 50ft at level 20.
And you can move around to make these attacks thanks to combat patrol, which basically allows you to move up to 40ft and hit out at up to 50ft whenever someone provokes.
90ft of range is a bit silly XD
It's quite over the top too, I'm not looking to overdo my reach, just a functional fighter that works with reach, AoO, and readied actions. Make em' regret doing anything while around me.
| BlingerBunny |
Alright, at 12th level I should have the general setup.
01 - Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
02 - Weapon Focus (Ranseur)
03 - Toughness
04 - Weapon Specialization (Ranseur)
05 - Iron Will
06 - Stand Still
07 - Big Game Hunter
08 - Dodge
09 - Greater Weapon Specialization (Ranseur)
10 - Mobility
11 - Pin Down
12 - Combat Patrol
After that I'll get improved iron will, endurance and diehard, from there I don't know where to go, and I'm still confused on how I should go with armor. Fullplate or Breastplate, or should I even worry about that kind of stuff right now, just grab fullplate and hope I don't have to deal with damn spell blingers.
| BlingerBunny |
An Edit to the list, I had forgotten Greater Weapon Focus.
01 - Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
02 - Toughness
03 - Weapon Focus (Ranseur)
04 - Weapon Specialization (Ranseur)
05 - Iron Will
06 - Stand Still
07 - Big Game Hunter
08 - Greater Weapon Focus (Ranseur)
09 - Dodge
10 - Mobility
11 - Pin Down
12 - Greater Weapon Specialization (Ranseur)
13 - Combat Patrol
| BlingerBunny |
I've discovered that Stand Still doesn't help unless they're adjacent to me and I'm not planning on letting enemies be adjacent to me, so I'm taking that out as well as dodge, mobility, and combat patrol.
I'm struggling with whether or not I should go for the Vital Strike chain, or if there's something similar that I can apply on Attacks of Opportunity.
Fruian Thistlefoot
|
A few feat choices that are good overall for a fighter and for this campaign:
Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Increasing Saves Especially Will, Disruptive, Spellbreaker,
What race where you wanting to be human, Half orc, Half elf, an exotic race?
Racial Feats that follow:
Human: Martial Versatility, Critical Versatility
Half-Orc: Deathless Line, Ironhide
Halfling: Risky Striker
Dwarf: Steel Soul + Warrior of old trait, Ironhide
Gnome: Arcane strike
Also let us know what the party is made of...there might be teamwork feats you could pull off with people in your group.