Goblin Squad Member
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In the foreseeable future our weapons will start to require ammunitions.
So it seem that the resources cost needed to make those ammunitions will set the basic prices of several items.
If you can't sell a unit of ammunition for less than 1 cp either all character using ranged weapons will learn to make their ammunitions or the price of the ammunitions will set the minimum price for coal, iron, yew and whatever is used for the other charges.
And those prices, as they will set the expectations of what you will get for an hour of gathering will set the minimum price for all other materials.
Someone with the right recipes want to try to calculate those prices?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Coins are a bartering unit. We could use "cold iron arrows" if that is a better reference unit for us (and it is possible they are, as we have faucets for coins but not drains).
In every instance the ammunitions would set the minimum "price" of the items, I think.
Without arrows even the most fancy bow will do nothing, so the other items crafting costs can be measured in the effort needed to make arrows. If making a arrow require n materials that require X time to be gathered, T time to be processed to a more refined form and another T2 time to be crafted in the final form we have a set of data against which we can measure all the other costs.
Excel speads galore.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As they are crafted in batches of five and possibly added to the quiver on a one on one basis, I assume Diego means 1c/arrow.
With the cost of the material I guess it will end up higher than that and something the equation is not taking in account is relation and situations. If I sell arrows to a raiding party that have been beaten back and wants to fill up on arrow in hostile country I will charge more, if I like the one I deal with a bit less, if they are haughty I will charge more and sell their location to the defenders (if I like them).
in any case I will shadow them in hope of steal from husks ...
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You people are making this way too complicated.
Here's how it is done in Golgotha:
step 1) Gather stuff and hand it to benevolent dictator.
step 2) Accept munitions as they are issued to you.
I imagine many (but obviously not all) of us could even skip step 1.
You silly foreigners and your "markets" are hilarious.
Life must be complicated for all of you trying to gain advantage over each other in those "markets".
In Golgotha, life is simple, pleasant, and exciting because munitions are abundant and frequently deployed in the name of #PFOcontent creation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I mean something more complicated than that.
To make steel blanks +0 you need 10 units of coal and 10 units of iron.
I don't know how many blanks it will produce (I don't have the coal for a test), let's say 10. 0 skill human, 0.8 minutes
5 yew logs to produce 5 +0 yew shaft. 0 skill human. 0.3 minutes
2 yew shaft and 2 steel blank to produce 5 arrows. 1.7 minutes.
So 5 arrows cost 2 yew logs and 0.12 minutes plus 2 iron and 2 coal and 0.16 minutes plus another 1.7 minutes.
The cost of 5 arrows is 6 raw resources and 2 minutes of the crafting queue. Each arrow is worth 1.2 resources and 0.4 minutes.
The minimum money that you will get for 6 resources at the AH is 6 cp.
Selling the single arrow arrows at less than 2 cp make you lose money. Same thing if you are bartering it at less than 2 units of resources.
Note that the crafting queue time has a value too.
So we have a base unit. If you are making armor X, how many arrows would you be capable to make in that time frame? How much resources would you get for bartering those arrows?
That will set the price of the other items.
Coal is not required for any ammo, if you're willing to use cold iron arrows.
And until there's something to do with coin, I feel like selling things for coin is an irrational choice.
But yall sure don't mind buying my things for coin :)
....
@ OP: I think that bulk item sales will help with this somewhat. I mean, if selling 100 arrows "in bulk" for 50c is possible, then you have your 0.5 copper arrow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You people are making this way too complicated.
Here's how it is done in Golgotha:
step 1) Gather stuff and hand it to benevolent dictator.
step 2) Accept munitions as they are issued to you.
I imagine many (but obviously not all) of us could even skip step 1.
You silly foreigners and your "markets" are hilarious.
Life must be complicated for all of you trying to gain advantage over each other in those "markets".
In Golgotha, life is simple, pleasant, and exciting because munitions are abundant and frequently deployed in the name of #PFOcontent creation.
Soon I will have you guys out making statues of me.
Birds always need something to poop on. :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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For those of us not in the top settlements, coin and the Auction Houses are important. Please don't give up on them entirely just yet.
To GW: The attitude that 'Coins are worthless and the Auction House is a waste of time,' will continue to grow and spread until you improve the UI. If you wait too long, the AHs may never recover, and you could lose a powerful tool for monitoring and adjusting the economy. (<-- Deliberate exaggeration in hopes of a response)
Soon I will have you guys out making statues of me.You people are making this way too complicated.
Here's how it is done in Golgotha:
step 1) Gather stuff and hand it to benevolent dictator.
step 2) Accept munitions as they are issued to you.
I imagine many (but obviously not all) of us could even skip step 1.
You silly foreigners and your "markets" are hilarious.
Life must be complicated for all of you trying to gain advantage over each other in those "markets".
In Golgotha, life is simple, pleasant, and exciting because munitions are abundant and frequently deployed in the name of #PFOcontent creation.
We would if we could.
Minecraft mini-game, GW? :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Soon I will have you guys out making statues of me.You people are making this way too complicated.
Here's how it is done in Golgotha:
step 1) Gather stuff and hand it to benevolent dictator.
step 2) Accept munitions as they are issued to you.
I imagine many (but obviously not all) of us could even skip step 1.
You silly foreigners and your "markets" are hilarious.
Life must be complicated for all of you trying to gain advantage over each other in those "markets".
In Golgotha, life is simple, pleasant, and exciting because munitions are abundant and frequently deployed in the name of #PFOcontent creation.
We would if we could.
Minecraft mini-game, GW? :-)
Statues are dangerous there was someone sent to the Gulags for 10 years under Stalin for hanging his coat over a bust of Stalin while painting a hall (true story).
Just buy a tavern and stick his picture on every wall at least twice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Comrade General Secretary Phyllain is always with us.
Next step the Phyllain Theme park.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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The intent is for higher plus arrows to not be required for higher plus bows. Instead, the plus on the arrow is a base damage bonus. +5 arrows essentially act like another minor keyword for damage.
You will need higher tier ammo for higher tier bows (or, more likely, shooting lower tier ammo will downgrade the attack to the lower tier, including probably dropping major keywords as well).
We may add small batches of +0 ammo to creature loot tables once ammo is working, but not so much that you can kill using only ranged attacks indefinitely with only the ammo provided from your kills.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Dunno. How much will you pay to do a few percent more damage than the guy using +0 arrows? (The percentage depending on the + in question, the tier, and the armor of the target.)
That's not meant to be a flip response. There are a few places in the game systems, particularly the crafting systems, where the intent is that you can chase the progressively higher resource cost for higher upgrade gear for an increasingly marginal bonus. But, importantly, it's a total that can't be reached in any other way.
I'm honestly curious whether the player response to some of these is likely to be a "I'm not going to pay for that and if I did accidentally, I'm mad that I did" or "Yeah, that's something that people, particularly well-organized people, will use selectively to get a small but meaningful advantage in certain situations, particularly ones where they've already exhausted cheaper methods to raise that total."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dunno. How much will you pay to do a few percent more damage than the guy using +0 arrows? (The percentage depending on the + in question, the tier, and the armor of the target.)
That's not meant to be a flip response. There are a few places in the game systems, particularly the crafting systems, where the intent is that you can chase the progressively higher resource cost for higher upgrade gear for an increasingly marginal bonus. But, importantly, it's a total that can't be reached in any other way.
I'm honestly curious whether the player response to some of these is likely to be a "I'm not going to pay for that and if I did accidentally, I'm mad that I did" or "Yeah, that's something that people, particularly well-organized people, will use selectively to get a small but meaningful advantage in certain situations, particularly ones where they've already exhausted cheaper methods to raise that total."
Min/max people will always go for the high power option regardless.
This is certainly the case in high end PvE. My PvE mission alt flies a Rattlesnake in EVE and it is pretty standard to always use Caldari Navy faction missiles in a Rattler even though they are roughly 10x more expensive for about a 10% improvement. Thing is fast completion times more than compensate in ISK/hour for the few million per mission in ammo.
There will come a time in PFO where people have long forum discussions on how many gold per hour you make with +3 ammo versus +0 and what sort of mobs are economical to use higher plus ammo against.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It all depends on if we can harvest arrows off of PvEers. If excess arrows (like beyond the ones in the equipped quiver) drop, arrows might not require too many resources to gather ;)
If its anything like EVE serious PvE people just regard the occasional loss of stuff as part of the running costs of a business.
EVE is interesting because the PvP crowd are happy to have no ISK but obsess over the kill board whereas long term industrialists and traders see the "challenge" as acquiring ISK, sometimes in the trillions and do not really care if their killboard is all deaths.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The intent is for higher plus arrows to not be required for higher plus bows. Instead, the plus on the arrow is a base damage bonus. +5 arrows essentially act like another minor keyword for damage.
That's good to know. I had inferred from the arrow tool tip that we would need to match arrow tier/+ with bow tier/+.
Could we get a full explanation of how this will work at least a couple of weeks before ammo goes live.
From what you say it seems like using a +2 bow with +0 arrows is the same as using a +2 bow currently.
How are you going to implement arrows between +0 and +5? Incremental damage bonuses, but without actual keywords? That kind of breaks the PFO paradigm.
It's important to me as a bow user, as I need to know in advance how much xp to put aside to allow myself to be self sufficient in day-to-day use arrows. If I can use +0 arrows without taking a hit on damage then I need to spend very little xp to make those. If I need to be making 100 +2 arrows a day, then obviously I will need to spend considerably more.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Yep, +0 ammo will make your ranged attacks continue to work like they do in the ammoless world we live in now. Higher plus ammo is pure bonus over how things work now.
It does break the paradigm, but in a minor way. And it was better to support the +0 to +5 crafting paradigm than to keep the damage paradigm pristine :) .
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Goblin Squad Member
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It does break the paradigm, but in a minor way. And it was better to support the +0 to +5 crafting paradigm than to keep the damage paradigm pristine :) .
And I guess it won't be impossible to add somekind of keyword mechanism in the future if someone gets a particularly nifty idea...
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Dunno. How much will you pay to do a few percent more damage than the guy using +0 arrows? (The percentage depending on the + in question, the tier, and the armor of the target.)
That's not meant to be a flip response. There are a few places in the game systems, particularly the crafting systems, where the intent is that you can chase the progressively higher resource cost for higher upgrade gear for an increasingly marginal bonus. But, importantly, it's a total that can't be reached in any other way.
I'm honestly curious whether the player response to some of these is likely to be a "I'm not going to pay for that and if I did accidentally, I'm mad that I did" or "Yeah, that's something that people, particularly well-organized people, will use selectively to get a small but meaningful advantage in certain situations, particularly ones where they've already exhausted cheaper methods to raise that total."
... Probably not little enough that I never want +1, and probably not so much that I always prefer to pay for +5. I guess that's meaningful choice at work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yep, +0 ammo will make your ranged attacks continue to work like they do in the ammoless world we live in now. Higher plus ammo is pure bonus over how things work now.
It does break the paradigm, but in a minor way. And it was better to support the +0 to +5 crafting paradigm than to keep the damage paradigm pristine :) .
Longbows are going to pretty insane for damage if this is the case. Or are you going to do the same for spells as well?