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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Say my character has a staff, and some item crafting feats. I'd like to make a metamagic rod, but instead of making it a separate item which I'd have to pull out and fiddle with all the time, could I make its effects a part of the staff instead? Same for Pearls of Power. Could I just integrate them into my staff instead of having them be separate items?
Those items are all slotless, so they shouldn't carry any additional cost for combining their effects.
It seems awkward and comical for a magic-user to have to carry around dozens of magic sticks, and much cooler for them to carry a single powerful staff.
As long as you have the feats, sure. Remember, at minimum, the items you're adding are done so at 1.5x the cost. Furthermore, final pricing is up to the GM. It's not hard to make a 'too good' item that's not an artifact which no normal PC can craft.
Uwotm8 wrote: As long as you have the feats, sure. Remember, at minimum, the items you're adding are done so at 1.5x the cost. Furthermore, final pricing is up to the GM. It's not hard to make a 'too good' item that's not an artifact which no normal PC can craft. These items are slotless. Why would they have a 1.5x penalty?
The only reason these items are "slotless" is because Pathfinder (rather bizarrely) doesn't consider held objects to be in a slot. But none of those items are slotless in the way that a Stone of Good Luck or an Ioun Stone is, for example. Pearls of Power, rods, and staves all must be held in the hands, and so having one item that combines all of them saves you on action economy, as opposed to having to put away and pull out multiple items.
So, any effects past the first should still incur the 1.5x cost. And as Uwotm8 mentions, you would still need to have Craft Rod, Craft Wondrous Item, and Craft Staff if you wanted to make a staff that combines all three effects.
RumpinRufus wrote: The only reason these items are "slotless" is because Pathfinder (rather bizarrely) doesn't consider held objects to be in a slot. But none of those items are slotless in the way that a Stone of Good Luck or an Ioun Stone is, for example. Pearls of Power, rods, and staves all must be held in the hands, and so having one item that combines all of them saves you on action economy, as opposed to having to put away and pull out multiple items.
So, any effects past the first should still incur the 1.5x cost. And as Uwotm8 mentions, you would still need to have Craft Rod, Craft Wondrous Item, and Craft Staff if you wanted to make a staff that combines all three effects.
And what's stopping me from tying them all up with a rope instead for the same net effect?
... Metamagic Nunchuk?
I have to admit, I never thought of that.
For pearls of power sure go ahead, i wouldn't have any problem, but for metamagic rods you are going to have to pay the extra 50% as usual because of action economy issues.
That's how i would go in my table but remember that when creating such an item in the first place you should consult with your DM.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
If you're going to just tie them together, be ready for lots of enterprising bad guys sundering the rope and picking up the ones that drop.
So in other words a wizard should be expected to haul around an Efficient Quiver full of wands, staves, and rods.
This is something I really hate about Pathfinder. In order to be most effective, your character has to look/act like a clown. Carrying around a golfbag full of magic sticks is the kind of thing you expect from a Diskworld wizard, not any kind of serious fantasy. When Saruman disarmed Gandalf, Gandalf didn't start pulling hundreds of wands out of his butt like a Pathfinder Wizard would.
Strill wrote: These items are slotless. Why would they have a 1.5x penalty? It appears you're right. However, as I said, your GM has final say over price regardless of what formulas say. Don't expect them to let a level 1 pearl of power and a level 2 pearl of power to cost only 5,000 gp.
Strill wrote: So in other words a wizard should be expected to haul around an Efficient Quiver full of wands, staves, and rods.
This is something I really hate about Pathfinder. In order to be most effective, your character has to look/act like a clown. Carrying around a golfbag full of magic sticks is the kind of thing you expect from a Diskworld wizard, not any kind of serious fantasy. When Saruman disarmed Gandalf, Gandalf didn't start pulling hundreds of wands out of his butt like a Pathfinder Wizard would.
You have two options: a) run a game congruent to your interests and how you want the world to work, b) accept that Pathfinder is not made to portray all scenarios out of the box.
Uwotm8 wrote: Strill wrote: These items are slotless. Why would they have a 1.5x penalty? It appears you're right. However, as I said, your GM has final say over price regardless of what formulas say. Don't expect them to let a level 1 pearl of power and a level 2 pearl of power to cost only 5,000 gp. What in the world are you talking about? What possible benefit could combining pearls of power give you? How would it be any different from simply sticking two pearls of power onto a necklace or bracelet?
Please do give a compelling reason why someone should spend the extra gold to combine two pearls of power rather than simply creating them both separately.
Strill wrote: So in other words a wizard should be expected to haul around an Efficient Quiver full of wands, staves, and rods.
This is something I really hate about Pathfinder. In order to be most effective, your character has to look/act like a clown. Carrying around a golfbag full of magic sticks is the kind of thing you expect from a Diskworld wizard, not any kind of serious fantasy. When Saruman disarmed Gandalf, Gandalf didn't start pulling hundreds of wands out of his butt like a Pathfinder Wizard would.
Fair counterpoint, Gandalf is basically the Middle Earth version of an angel.
That said, given that everybody has basically said "you can probably do this but talk to your GM, which is something you should do for every kind of custom magic creation ever and the rules specifically tell you this"... I'm kind of confused by what you're irritated about.
Paying the 1.5x cost? Putting aside that whether or not you'll be paying it is up to the GM, there are distinct benefits to putting all of your abilities on one item-- namely that you don't have to hold each in a different hand. This is the exact same benefit incurred by combining two Glove or Body slot items, and you're expected to pay an increased price for that.
Strill wrote: What in the world are you talking about? What possible benefit could combining pearls of power give you?
Please do give a compelling reason why someone should spend the extra gold to combine two pearls of power rather than simply creating them both separately.
No, I won't. I'll simply leave you with the paradigm of the system that items that can do lots of things tend to cost more than their constituent parts. Also, the GM is the arbiter of what items actually cost regardless of formulas.
Magic Item Creation wrote: Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point.
Uwotm8 wrote: No, I won't. I'll simply leave you with the paradigm of the system that items that can do lots of things tend to cost more than their constituent parts. Also, the GM is the arbiter of what items actually cost regardless of formulas. So then does using two Ioun stones cost more than the sum of their parts?
Combining slotless items provides a discount because there is a disadvantage to not having separate slotless item. You can't split them up to lend to someone, only one item to lose or get stolen/sundered.
Quote: Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
Strill wrote: So in other words a wizard should be expected to haul around an Efficient Quiver full of wands, staves, and rods.
This is something I really hate about Pathfinder. In order to be most effective, your character has to look/act like a clown. Carrying around a golfbag full of magic sticks is the kind of thing you expect from a Diskworld wizard, not any kind of serious fantasy. When Saruman disarmed Gandalf, Gandalf didn't start pulling hundreds of wands out of his butt like a Pathfinder Wizard would.
D20 is a system built on wargaming. The magic item system you want is more towards Ars Magica, but it's not usable outside of the game system itself.
kestral287 wrote: Paying the 1.5x cost? Putting aside that whether or not you'll be paying it is up to the GM, there are distinct benefits to putting all of your abilities on one item-- namely that you don't have to hold each in a different hand. This is the exact same benefit incurred by combining two Glove or Body slot items, and you're expected to pay an increased price for that. That's not true. The benefit you gain from combining slotted items is being able to benefit from both their effects at once. Pearls of Power, Metamagic rods, and staves, on the other hand, are all mutually exclusive. You can never benefit from more than one of them in the same turn.
Strill wrote: So then does using two Ioun stones cost more than the sum of their parts? Using them? No. How does using an item make it cost more? That smells of conflation on your part. However, combined into the same item? Maybe. Given what some of them can do, quite likely.
Uwotm8 wrote: Strill wrote: So then does using two Ioun stones cost more than the sum of their parts? Using them? No. How does using an item make it cost more? That smells of conflation on your part. However, combined into the same item? Maybe. Given what some of them can do, quite likely. Such as? What does two Ioun stones combined into one big Ioun stone do that each one individually did not?
Isn't there a limit to the number of Ioun stones you can have active at once, or was the just a house rule my GM used?
NikolaiJuno wrote: Isn't there a limit to the number of Ioun stones you can have active at once, or was the just a house rule my GM used? House rule.
Strill wrote: Such as? What does two Ioun stones combined into one big Ioun stone do that each one individually did not? That's up to your GM to decide. You might not like the answer. It doesn't change it.
Strill wrote: That's not true. The benefit you gain from combining slotted items is being able to benefit from both their effects at once. Pearls of Power, Metamagic rods, and staves, on the other hand, are all mutually exclusive. You can never benefit from more than one of them in the same turn. ... I... what? That's... wrong.
The obvious example: I have a Metamagic Rod of Quicken and Maximize. I use it to cast Quicken Fireball. I use it to cast Maximize Fireball. Even presuming you can't use both at once (debatable as they're now one item), you can use both in the same turn.
The example that would make me twitch as a GM: I have a Staff of the Master combined with a Metamagic Rod of Quicken and a Metamagic Rod of Maximize. I cast a Quickened Maximized Fireball by expending three charges from the staff. I cast a Maximized Empowered Fireball by expending two charges from the staff.
EDIT: As far as Ioun Stones go, combining two+ doubles up on what you can put in a Wayfinder. So there actually is a mechanical advantage to that.
kestral287 wrote: The example that would make me twitch as a GM: I have a Staff of the Master combined with a Metamagic Rod of Quicken and a Metamagic Rod of Maximize. I cast a Quickened Maximized Fireball by expending three charges from the staff. I cast a Maximized Empowered Fireball by expending two charges from the staff. Doesn't work. Metmagic feats can't be used on spells cast from wands, staves, or scrolls, so you can't combine the rod effects with the staff.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/3753/can-you-use-a-metamagic-rod-an d-a-scroll-staff-wand-together
Strill wrote: kestral287 wrote: The example that would make me twitch as a GM: I have a Staff of the Master combined with a Metamagic Rod of Quicken and a Metamagic Rod of Maximize. I cast a Quickened Maximized Fireball by expending three charges from the staff. I cast a Maximized Empowered Fireball by expending two charges from the staff. Doesn't work. Metmagic feats can't be used on spells cast from wands, staves, or scrolls, so you can't combine the rod effects with the staff.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/3753/can-you-use-a-metamagic-rod-an d-a-scroll-staff-wand-together Read staff of the master, because kestral1287 isn't talking about casting the spell from the staff.
leo1925 wrote: Strill wrote: kestral287 wrote: The example that would make me twitch as a GM: I have a Staff of the Master combined with a Metamagic Rod of Quicken and a Metamagic Rod of Maximize. I cast a Quickened Maximized Fireball by expending three charges from the staff. I cast a Maximized Empowered Fireball by expending two charges from the staff. Doesn't work. Metmagic feats can't be used on spells cast from wands, staves, or scrolls, so you can't combine the rod effects with the staff.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/3753/can-you-use-a-metamagic-rod-an d-a-scroll-staff-wand-together Read staff of the master, because kestral1287 isn't talking about casting the spell from the staff. Staff of the master says "No more than one feat can be applied to a spell cast by the wielder in this way." You still can't combine them.
leo1925 wrote: Strill wrote: kestral287 wrote: The example that would make me twitch as a GM: I have a Staff of the Master combined with a Metamagic Rod of Quicken and a Metamagic Rod of Maximize. I cast a Quickened Maximized Fireball by expending three charges from the staff. I cast a Maximized Empowered Fireball by expending two charges from the staff. Doesn't work. Metmagic feats can't be used on spells cast from wands, staves, or scrolls, so you can't combine the rod effects with the staff.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/3753/can-you-use-a-metamagic-rod-an d-a-scroll-staff-wand-together Read staff of the master, because kestral287 isn't talking about casting the spell from the staff. This. Staff of the Master has a secondary ability that allows one to expend its charges to reduce the cost of a metamagic feat. You can't use more than one metamagic feat on that spell... but a rod isn't adding a feat so it's fine (the text I'm reading specifies "effect", Staff of the Master specifies no more than one feat). In this way, one can create a Quickened Dazing (or similar) Fireball, normally a 10th level spell, in a 3rd level spell slot.
Shenanigans like that are possible now, certainly, but they tend to be a lot more build-intensive than "hold an item in one hand".
@kestral287
You might be correct on that but, normally, to use both the staff of the master and a metamagic rod you would need either a third hand or a spell with no somatic components.
kestral287 wrote: but a rod isn't adding a feat so it's fine Metmagic rods explicitly ARE adding a feat.
"Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rods/metamagic-rods
_Ozy_ wrote: Combining slotless items provides a discount because there is a disadvantage to not having separate slotless item. You can't split them up to lend to someone, only one item to lose or get stolen/sundered.
Quote: Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
It is better to cite the piece of text under that row. too:
PRD wrote: Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price. There are several arguments about joining items.
Armor and Weapons - no extra cost unless it is a double weapon, a weapon or armor having multiple abilities is the nom.
Potions: absolutely no! It is a huge benefit in action economy.
Rings: decidedly falls in the "Multiple Different Abilities" group.
Scrolls: again, it is the norm to have multiple spells in the same item.
Rods: huge action economy advantage. Instead of "Draw, use, put away, use a different rod" you have "draw, chose what rod power you want to use every round". The should cost x1.5 or x2.
Wands: single spell items by default.
Staves: multiple spell items by default. you can add as many spells you want to it. Adding different powers fall in the appropriate category.
Wondrous items: they are so different that everyone is a different thing. If joining them give an action economy bonus they should cost more.
leo1925 wrote: @kestral287
You might be correct on that but, normally, to use both the staff of the master and a metamagic rod you would need either a third hand or a spell with no somatic components.
Or be a Tiefling with a Grasping Tail, but yes. This is my point: there is an inherent advantage to being able to use multiples of some (not all) slotless items. Hence it would be reasonable to charge the extra 50% for the combination.
Don't get me wrong. I think it's a cool idea. Conceptually I've struggled with the same thing, in that I've built an intentionally-minimalist character but would still like to derive the bonuses of a number of magic items. And as a GM, I would allow it in a heartbeat. But for some combinations, you would be paying the 50% upcharge. Going through the items noted in the thread:
Staves and wands I would upcharge if their total number of charges doubled, otherwise I would not (probably a reduction in cost if they were still stuck at 10/50 charges, 1:1 cost if they increased somewhat, 1:1.5 if they doubled). This may differ for staves with additional abilities like the Staff of the Master.
Rods I would upcharge for if combined with another item held in hand.
Ioun Stones would require a discussion with the player about Wayfinders. The new stone would either not fit in the Wayfinder or have only one of its stone abilities active (1:1 cost), or there would be an upcharge.
Pearls of Power and similar items that do not need to be held, or at least not in combat, I would allow to be combined freely.
Strill wrote: Uwotm8 wrote: Strill wrote: So then does using two Ioun stones cost more than the sum of their parts? Using them? No. How does using an item make it cost more? That smells of conflation on your part. However, combined into the same item? Maybe. Given what some of them can do, quite likely. Such as? What does two Ioun stones combined into one big Ioun stone do that each one individually did not? Fit into a standard Wayfinder.
Strill wrote: Could I just integrate them into my staff instead of having them be separate items? Ultimately ask your GM, since he is the arbiter of the rules in your game.
In my game yes by paying the 1.5x penalty. Most slotless items don't need to be held, these generally do.
Strill wrote: And what's stopping me from tying them all up with a rope instead for the same net effect? Your GM.
There is no definition in the rules of hold, but you can infer from many things that you can't hold more than one item in hand. Consider this an unwritten rule the game is designed in mind. The same way there is an unwritten rule that PC characters can't have more than two arms.
_Ozy_ wrote: Combining slotless items provides a discount because there is a disadvantage to not having separate slotless item. You can't split them up to lend to someone, only one item to lose or get stolen/sundered.
Quote: Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
That rule doesn't say what you think it says.
That covers things like Staffs with multiple spells all using the same charge pool. It also covers wondrous items with say charges that do different things (like 1 charge does Cure Light, 1 charge for Neutralize Poison, etc.)
If a player in my game wanted to do something like this, I would be pretty amenable to it.
I would suggest they could add "slots" to their staff to socket pearls of power into. I don't normally allow a caster to benefit from more than one at a time (a hose rule), but by this means I could allow two or three. I'd set a scaling cost for adding these slots, probably 1k, 2k, and 3k.
As for the combining a metamagic rod, I don't like these items to begin with, but I would probably allow the abilities of one, and only one, to be integrated into a staff at 1.5x cost.
Really, I'd just be excited that someone actually wanted to use a staff. Normally they're instant sale or toss in the portable hole and forget items.
Sounds like an additional slot type should be introduced: Handheld.
James Risner wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Combining slotless items provides a discount because there is a disadvantage to not having separate slotless item. You can't split them up to lend to someone, only one item to lose or get stolen/sundered.
Quote: Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
That rule doesn't say what you think it says.
That covers things like Staffs with multiple spells all using the same charge pool. It also covers wondrous items with say charges that do different things (like 1 charge does Cure Light, 1 charge for Neutralize Poison, etc.)
Do you truly believe that there is no disadvantage to combining multiple abilities into one slotless item compared to a separate slotless item for each?
People are always talking about how things should be priced to account for how powerful they are, and if a combined slotless item is less powerful than multiple slotless items, it should be priced less.
Of course.
But has anybody proposed a scenario here where an item would be less powerful? A combined Ioun Stone is exactly as powerful, except it only takes up one Wayfinder slot (advantage), is much easier to implant (advantage), and... is easy to steal or sunder? Sure, but the first two render that moot. And if I was in any kind of game where I knew my GM would have enemies do things like steal or sunder ioun stones, you can bet your damnedest that I'd do what had to be done to get them implanted.
A combined rod or rod/staff is much more powerful because of the action economy. Yes, it's easier to sunder/steal, but the increase in power offsets that and then some. A combined staff/staff less so, unless it has more charges or other abilities.
A combined Pearl of Power might be technically weaker than separate Pearls due to the potential to be stolen, but Pearls are typically seen as underpriced and aren't combat tools anyway so I, at least, would leave the cost where it is.
But if somebody wants to create some sort of multifunction wand that can cast both Mage Armor and Shield, but draws both from the same charge pool, then yeah, I'd see the inherent disadvantage (though there's also an advantage in there, to be sure) and price it at less than a full Wand of each.
A lot of things are in the details of the combination too. For example, if a Rod of Quicken and Maximize still couldn't use more than one ability on a given spell (which frankly I would assume as a condition of having it), or was pooling its 3/day limit between the two spells, there's a disadvantage built-in and yeah, that changes the scenario on talking cost. But barring some sort of limitation like that, I'm assuming a Rod of Quicken and Maximize is exactly like each of the two individual rods merged together, with their own 3/day pools and such.
Not only ability to be stolen or sundered, but inability to be distributed around the party for more optimal usage.
In the last game, my character borrowed a wand for an encounter because it was determined to be better for me to have it, tactically speaking.
If that wand was 'combined' with another item that the original character needed for the encounter, we wouldn't have been able to enact the plan.
Combining slotless items reduces their versatility. It's a real tactical disadvantage.
How many encounters did that happen in, versus the number of encounters you played overall?
_Ozy_ wrote: That night? 1 out of 2. And over the course of the campaign? Or heck, over the course of your gaming career?
_Ozy_ wrote: Do you truly believe that there is no disadvantage to combining multiple abilities into one slotless item compared to a separate slotless item for each? ... it should be priced less. Not it shouldn't cost less. We even see this in real life, bundles on Amazon cost more than the parts can be purchased separately. Bundles at restaurants often cost the same or sometimes even more.
You buy a bundle when you want all the effects. In this case you are getting all the effects in a package you don't need to spend move actions to swap around. There is no reasonable or fair way to do that for anything less than a price increase.
_Ozy_ wrote: Not only ability to be stolen or sundered, but inability to be distributed around the party for more optimal usage. Different table, different RAW.
YOu must play at a table that allow a Pearl of Power to be shared between people and everyone get 1/day use of it.
I run tables (GM) and play at tables that do not allow that to work. The PoP has a 1/day use. Who ever uses it today, burns it for everyone else.
James Risner wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Do you truly believe that there is no disadvantage to combining multiple abilities into one slotless item compared to a separate slotless item for each? ... it should be priced less. Not it shouldn't cost less. We even see this in real life, bundles on Amazon cost more than the parts can be purchased separately. Bundles at restaurants often cost the same or sometimes even more.
You buy a bundle when you want all the effects. In this case you are getting all the effects in a package you don't need to spend move actions to swap around. There is no reasonable or fair way to do that for anything less than a price increase. You're buying the wrong bundles. The point of bundle pricing is to buy several related things cheaper than you could get them individually. Example: a DSLR bundle with a lens, camera bag, and tripod. Total price $650. Individually: camera body $500, lens $120, bag $60, and tripod $20. Savings from bundle $50.
Strill wrote: Uwotm8 wrote: No, I won't. I'll simply leave you with the paradigm of the system that items that can do lots of things tend to cost more than their constituent parts. Also, the GM is the arbiter of what items actually cost regardless of formulas. So then does using two Ioun stones cost more than the sum of their parts? Using? No.
Combining two ioun stones into a single item? The second function has a 1.5x cost modifier.
James Risner wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Not only ability to be stolen or sundered, but inability to be distributed around the party for more optimal usage. Different table, different RAW.
YOu must play at a table that allow a Pearl of Power to be shared between people and everyone get 1/day use of it.
I run tables (GM) and play at tables that do not allow that to work. The PoP has a 1/day use. Who ever uses it today, burns it for everyone else.
You're completely misunderstanding him. If a pearl of power is separate, I can give it to the Ranger so he can cast entangle twice. If the pearl of power is embedded in my staff, I can't do that without giving up my staff, and forcing the ranger to haul it around. I've incurred a tactical disadvantage because of the combination.
Artanthos wrote: Strill wrote: Uwotm8 wrote: No, I won't. I'll simply leave you with the paradigm of the system that items that can do lots of things tend to cost more than their constituent parts. Also, the GM is the arbiter of what items actually cost regardless of formulas. So then does using two Ioun stones cost more than the sum of their parts? Using? No.
Combining two ioun stones into a single item? The second function has a 1.5x cost modifier. The rules specifically say that that only applies to body-slot items. Ioun stones are not body slot items, and already have a 2x multiplier built into their price.
Scythia wrote: Really, I'd just be excited that someone actually wanted to use a staff. Normally they're instant sale or toss in the portable hole and forget items. It's because the ones in the book are very poorly designed and ridiculously overpriced. They have spells of all different levels, so you have to spend a 4th-level slot to cast Magic Missile, and they have a wide variety of spells, which inflates their price but adds no utility. To compensate for the huge price, they make the useful spells cost multiple charges, making the whole thing worthless.
In most cases you're better off just buying more pearls of power.
The best solution to staves that I've seen is this one. You first make sure all the spells are the same level so they're worth casting. You do this by allowing the staff to hold a metamagiced versions of its lower-level spells. You then put two 1-charge spells, and two 2-charge spells into the staff, and the price comes out to less than twice as much as a staff with one spell.
I've also heard several other ideas, like allowing casters to recharge their staff at any point in the day, rather than only in the morning. Then you can charge your staff with left-over unused spell slots.
Keep in mind that spontaneous casters are worse than prepared casters at using metamagic rods, if you allow the two or more rods in the same item you are giving them more power and versatility.
leo1925 wrote: Keep in mind that spontaneous casters are worse than prepared casters at using metamagic rods, if you allow the two or more rods in the same item you are giving them more power and versatility. Is that a problem? Everyone I've talked to has said that spontaneous casters are significantly weaker than prepared casters as-is.
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