He, I'm a new player to Pathfinder trying to make a cleric for a PbP, and I'm having a lot of trouble deciding wether or not to be a Battle Cleric or a Support Cleric. Support Cleric helps the group the most, but I have heard that they are one of the more boring ones to play. Any advice?
It really depends on how many levels you are going to play. Without much optimisation you can be a good combatant until level 10 or so.
Battle clerics usually dump charisma - so channeling is more or less out.
Wisdom should always be your main stat, battle cleric or whatever. Especially if you are a dedicated caster.
What levels and what point buy?
Ok, why would it be only up until level 10?
Presuambly up all the way up in levels, and a twenty point buy.
It really depends on what you enjoy.
If you haven't yet, I suggest you read the cleric advice in the various guides found here -- especially the reach cleric guide.
A reach cleric is mostly about the weapon and positioning. It can easily be combined with a battle or support cleric since it is mostly about choosing a reach weapon and positioning. You can't dump strength on one, but it doesn't have to be very high.
If you are satisfied with helping the whole group, support cleric works well. If you also want to use spells that harm the enemy then you will need a much higher Wisdom. This sort of cleric casts the blesses, dooms, and other spells that allow others to do the damage or prevent the enemy from being able to do damage.
If you need to be doing damage in order to feel useful, go battle cleric.
I've already read Tark's big book of Cleric Optimisation, Main reason I'm aiming towards Battle Cleric is just because while the idea of a support cleric sounds nice, doesn't really seem like something I would want to play. I still want to be able to cast some of the bigger Cleric spells, but also be a frontline fighter. Maty not be the most optimal, but I've never been much of a min/max peson.
I've already read Tark's big book of Cleric Optimisation, Main reason I'm aiming towards Battle Cleric is just because while the idea of a support cleric sounds nice, doesn't really seem like something I would want to play. I still want to be able to cast some of the bigger Cleric spells, but also be a frontline fighter. Maty not be the most optimal, but I've never been much of a min/max peson.
Just out of curiosity, what do you consider the 'bigger Cleric spells'? Do you mean debuffing or blasting? Those have higher casting requirements than other 'big spells.'
For example: Divine Power, Summon Monster X, Restoration, True Seeing, Geas, Planar Ally, and Heal are all 'bigger' cleric spells (level 6 specifically) that don't require a ton of points dumped into casting stats because saves aren't a factor ... Banishment, Blasphemy, or Flame Strike (as examples) have higher requirements if you want them to be effective on a regular basis.
If you don't have to worry about overcoming saving throws, you are free to have higher physical stats, and a battle cleric becomes a good option. Just pack some wands of cure X wounds, and pick up Scribe Scroll for some other status effect removals, since you should be doing that (out of battle) as a cleric.
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Ok, why would it be only up until level 10?
Presumably up all the way up in levels, and a twenty point buy.
Low level clerics are primarily martial combatants. High level clerics are primarily spell casters. In between, when they make the transition, things can get awkward, because you must choose which half of the character to use. Except for reach-style clerics, who avoid this dilemma.
At low levels a cleric lacks enough spells to cast a lot of spells. A low level cleric will usually spend a lot of time in melee combat. A first level cleric is basically a warrior able to cast a few spells.
At high levels a cleric has enough powerful spells to always cast a spell. Why attack with a weapon when you can summon a Storm Giant who will attack with a weapon, inflict far more damage, and also soak up damage?
Clerics have awesome self-buff spells. A low level cleric with merely average Strength and no special combat skills can self-buff into Clericzilla and become a battlefield terror. Try that at high levels, without investing heavily in offense and defense, and your cleric will quickly be a smear on a wall.
As Cheburn says above, there are basically two ways to cast spells as a cleric:
Option 1: Cast offensive spells at foes, where spell DCs matter. To pull this off you must have high Wisdom, else your spell DCs will suck and foes will usually make their saving throw. This sort of Cleric wants to start with 18+ Wisdom, and usually won't also be martially competent.
Option 2: Only cast buff, healing, and summoning spells. Spell DC does not matter one jot. You need only enough Wisdom to cast your highest level spell, allowing you to be good at other stuff (like fighting).
Okay, I will go for Battle Cleric then, thanks for all of the advice. While the save or die spells are appealing, if I wanted to do spells like that I would have chosen Wizard in the first place. Thanks for all of the advice.
Ok, why would it be only up until level 10?
At first level, martial classes only have minor advantages over magical classes in melee combat. The most important factor at this point is usually Strength. Over time the gap increases as the martials pull further ahead in BAB, attack bonuses and hit points.
I wouldn't suggest dumping Charisma that hard, try to keep it no lower than 10. Take Dex down to 10 and you can do that.
What sort of feats were you going to take?
Clerics are a unique class, because you can do so many things with it. However, in each case but one, you really need to focus you abilities to do well at it. Whether it is as a reach cleric, a summoning cleric, a bad touch cleric... You need all the power you can get to do better than other classes at it. Feats, abilities, all of it, plus you don't even get many skill points. The one exception is buffing. You don't need stats, because the spells don't do saves, and there are no special feat requirements. Add to this that few fights even at mid levels last more than three rounds (ofwhich buffing costs you), and buffing becomes a side job, not a full time occupation. Choose one style, add a modicum of buffs and heals, and go.
I haven't fully decided yet, but at first level I was thinking of going Toughness and Power Attack/Improved Initiative. Not so sure about taking the Dex down to 10
Here's what I have currently
Str 16 (Human +2 to 18)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 15 (Raise to 16 while leveling)
Cha 7
God Saerenae Domains Glory(Heroisim) and Good
A question I have is a Scimitair enough for a Battle Cleric, or do I need to aim for a bigger weapon?
Presuambly up all the way up in levels, and a twenty point buy.
If you are doing play-by-post and expecting to go "all the way up" in levels, you may end up disappointed...
I actually found something that may mean i can keep strength low and raise Wisdom without giving up th additional damage
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/we apon-property---guided
Seems like a way to have good Wisdom and still have good bonuses to Damage and hitting. Thoughts?
The guided weapon property, although published by Paizo, was for 3.5 and is not legal in Pathfinder. Many GMs allow it, so check with your GM.
Will you start at level 1?
Don't forget the feat guided hand that allows you to use your wisdom in place of str or dex for your deity'd favored weapon. You would still need a decent str for damage though. If you do take this route I reccomend human as there is channel smite as a prerequisite, so you can get guided hand at level 1.
If you are going strait battle cleric though, you may want to consider the warpreist.
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Here's the Iconic Pathfinder Cleric of Sarenrae, Kyra at levels 1, 7, and 12. She's built as a Support Cleric, but her STR 14 is sufficient to be martially competent.
The Guided Hand feat can get you WIS instead of STR to hit, but doesn't help with damage. Even after investing two feats your attacks will still usually be less effective than if you just start with STR 14+ and fight with a longspear. Those two feat slots buy far more battle prowess when spent on Combat Reflexes and Power Attack. Note that a Cleric can't get Power Attack until 3rd level, as it requires BaB+1. Some people claim Power Attack is bad for 3/4 BaB classes, but that's because they can't do math.
I like to play iconic Kyra at 1st level. I have found that, if she buys a 5 gp longspear right away and uses it through the adventure, her average damage output roughly doubles and she takes less damage. Because math. She draws the scimitar when she must fight in close quarters.
Thanks for all of the advice
@Leo1925: Yes it will be at level 1
@hogeyhead: I will not be taking Guided Hand, just seems to feat intensive for me. Also, I prefer Cleric, as Im trying more of a hybrid then a pure Battle Cleric
@Magda: Kyra seems like a good starting point, thanks for pointing her out. I' still waiting for the DM to get back on Guidance. I don't know about the Longspear, I'll consider it, but I may jus go for the Scimitair.
Cleric is kinda forgiving as a class. Even if you build it all wrong they can still clear all the conditions and summon others to do the fighting. I have seen clerics be effective with reach weapons, two handed weapons, sword and board, archery, summoning, even blasting. Each deity is almost like a subclass.
Everyone referred to my cleric of Gozreh as "the druid" and we actually had a druid in the party.
My advice is to take a look at the deities and once you find one you like see what the domains do. They aren't necessary to make you effective, but they will make you unique.
Have you looked at the war priest from the ACG? This gives you everything you want.
So my DM did approve Guided, but only for to-hit rolls, not for damage, so my current stats are probably my best, although I'm really considering keeping STR at 16, and using the +2 from human to boost Wisdom to 17 (Would use levels to boost Wisdom and Strength to 18 later on).
@Gregory Connoly: Thanks for the advice, I think I have my build down. Saerenae with domains Glory(Heroisim) and Sun are the ones I want to go with pretty much.
@Mysterious Stranger: Yes I have looked at Warpriest, and I really feel that going Support with a touch of Battle is the way I want to go. I may not be as effective as either purely, but I don't really mind that much.
True, but the spell list if pretty good as well, but I will look for another. The new stat line I'm considering is
Str 17 (Racial Bonus here)
Con 14
Dex 12
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 7
With the first Attribute point at level 4 being put into Strength.
I'm not sure that 10 int is worth it in point buy. On a bad skills class like cleric the difference between a 7 and a 10 is only 1 skill point per level because the minimum is 1. Those 4 build points could go into constitution, charisma, strength or whatever. 7 charisma is pretty bad as your channels are excellent after combat healing, I would seriously consider raising this.
Just personal preference with the INT at 10, fits the background I had for the character more.