It would be good to specify what you intend to do: summoning short-duration combat minions? Summoner has spell-like ability to do that, with faster cast time and longer duration than regular summon monster spell. Sorcerer can use summon monster spell and has more daily slots than wizard but wizard with conjuration school has better class abilities at lower levels and more versatility when it comes to spells when not summoning (assuming he has time to prepare right spells). Each class has its own advantages.
The most efficient summoner, though, is probably master summoner archetype for summoner which has much half-powered eidolon but can summon multiple monsters with his summon monster spell-like ability.
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Either approach is just fine. Summoning is an excellent approach to offensive spell casting.
The Summoner's Summon Monster SLA is a fantastic power that any other class would love to have. The Summoner's eidolon is so powerful that many summoners forget they even have the Summon Monster SLA. That's why many people think the Summoner class is broken.
Here's something to watch out for:
* A normal Summon Monster spell takes 1 round to cast. This means you start casting the spell on your turn and the spell activates at the start of your next turn. If you must Move before you start casting the spell then you must also spend your next Standard Action to finish the spell. The Summoned Monster takes it's first action the round after you start the spell.
* A standard action Summon Monster spell takes a Standard Action to cast. You start and finish it on the same round, and the Summoned Monster appears immediately and acts that same round. Wizards and Clerics can do standard action summons, but they must work at. The Summoner's Summon Monster SLA is always a Standard Action.
* Research your summons and write them up on 3x5 note cards. That way you have all their combat stats to hand when you need them, and don't slow down the game looking stuff up. While no one has a problem with a summoner who is on the ball, nearly everyone objects to a summoner who is unprepared and thus slows down the game.
* Consider letting other players sometimes play your summoned monsters. This is a great way to give someone a part to play while you take your turn. This is especially important if you often summon multiple monsters.
Summoner has a very restrictive spell list.
You should also look at Occultist (an Arcanist archetype) from Advanced Class Guide. They get the standard action summon of the Summoner and have access to the full Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Less spells, but a full spell list. I would use this before a Sorcerer for a summons focused spell caster.
If all you want to achieve is summoning and blasting, go sorcerer. Pick up the summon spells, buffs, and some blasts. Use your feats on augment summoning, then after that focus on making your blasts scarier. Make sure to experiment with summoning critters who aren't hurt by your area blasts.
Summoners are if you want to only summon and buff; you could be invisible the whole fight basically.
Wizards have the most time investment, but also the most versatility. As long as you're not worried about utility out of combat spells, don't bother going wizard. My rule of thumb is sorcerers are better for combat focused games while wizards are better for well rounded games with various types of challenges.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/local-feats/acadamae-graduate-local-1
Wizards make fine summoners.
The arcanist occultist always deserves another mention. Probably the best summoner other than master summoner, which is often banned.
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I know the title may seem confusing, but my DM and I were talking (and as I'm fairly new to Pathfinder) he said if I wanted to just summon things go as a Sorcerer and "we'll gear you towards that" but my other friends say wizard is better. A different DM said for what I want summoner class doesn't do really that.
What do you guys think? Which option should I go?
Thanks to his SLA, the Summoner actually has more of the highest level summoning spells available at any given level than any other class. There's also a lot of summoning feats that still interact with the SLA, and it's natively much faster to cast and lasts much longer. I'd say the Summoner is easily the best summoner in the game. It doesn't hurt matters that he can wear armor and has average hit die and BAB either.
My last Summoner generally only brought his eidolon out using the summon eidolon spell so that he could leverage his SLA to its fullest and so that when his eidolon did come out to play he could stack Augment Summoning and related feats on it; for all the hype the eidolon gets this was probably one of the most powerful characters I've run, and the most fun.
The arcanist occultist always deserves another mention. Probably the best summoner other than master summoner, which is often banned.
Going to have to agree.
Occultist gets all the Sorcerer/Wizard spells (for the blasting and nuking) and can use their Arcane Reservoir to cast Summon Monster spells as a Standard Action lasting 1 minute/level instead of 1 round/level. This means they don't have to have the Summon Monster spells prepared (more room for nukes/utility/buff spells). They also get the Cleric Planar Ally spells added to their spell list.
Druid. Specifically the Saurian Shaman archetype, but even a base Druid is good at this. The ability to drop all your prepared spells for more summons is very nice. The lack of the fiendish or celestial template is not a bad thing as protection and magic circle effects are ignored. Moonlight, Sunlight, and Starlight Summons all require Summon Nature's Ally instead of Summon Monster. And you can sit in the back (in Air Elemental or Earth Elemental form for mobility) producing flame or calling lightning in the manner of an arcane caster. To top it all off your animal companion is there to fight for you all the time.
Wow you guys are fast. How does the Summoner class play? I get with the Sorcerer and wizard I can cast the spells pronto, but with the summoner, does he use his Elidon earlier than switches to summoning? Or use his Elidion always,
Master Summoner archetype all the way. no question. Small race with a Medium eidolon if you want to ride it, Medium race with a small eidolon if you want to use it as a scout. Perfect for what you want to do.
Druid. Specifically the Saurian Shaman archetype, but even a base Druid is good at this. The ability to drop all your prepared spells for more summons is very nice. The lack of the fiendish or celestial template is not a bad thing as protection and magic circle effects are ignored. Moonlight, Sunlight, and Starlight Summons all require Summon Nature's Ally instead of Summon Monster. And you can sit in the back (in Air Elemental or Earth Elemental form for mobility) producing flame or calling lightning in the manner of an arcane caster. To top it all off your animal companion is there to fight for you all the time.
After re-reading the thread, this is probably the best suggestion - a Saurian Shaman with a buffed up Allosaurus or Spinosaurus is just incredible, and you're right about things like Produce Flame or Call Lightning. I actually made this character for PFS play using a Qlippoth-spawn Tiefling and the two are a terror. The only drawback I see is the savage/natural theme vs. the arcane caster theme the OP seems to ben favoring...
Something to keep in mind when playing a summoner is that there is a lot of paperwork. If you don't want to slow the table down you will need to have the stats of all of your expected summons ready ahead of time.
Wow you guys are fast. How does the Summoner class play? I get with the Sorcerer and wizard I can cast the spells pronto, but with the summoner, does he use his Elidon earlier than switches to summoning? Or use his Elidion always,
I play a halfling Summoner in PFS. With PFS you never know who else will be in the group.
I've switched back and forth between using just the Eidolon and using just summons. Which is right depends on the group and the situation.
When I am in a group with rogues, I'll almost always use summons because it is easy to place them into flanking positions. Since the summons are generally easier to kill than the characters, many NPCs will try to take out the summons so they not take Sneak Attack damage. This means the members of my party are not taking the damage.
Any time that it calls for rushing the opponent, I use summons.
If there isn't a strong need for flanking or if it is aquatic I'll bring out my Eidolon. My Eidolon has gills and swim as evolutions, thus the statement about aquatic. If my Eidolon gets badly injured, I will unsummon it and then start bringing in summoned creatures. After the battle, I'll bring back the Eidolon and cure it up.
It should be noted that my character is a bit overprotective of her Eidolon. She hasn't allowed it to die yet, even though in a couple of cases that would have been the tactically superior choice. If you are more willing to allow it to die at can save you a round as there would be no need to dismiss it.
It should be noted that some spells that people take for granted are not on the Summoner spell list. Magic Missile, Obscuring Mist and other fog/cloud spells, Life Bubble, delayed access to Fly and Waterbreathing (don't get 3rd level spells until 7th level), and a lot of others. You do get some slightly sooner than a wizard (haste being the one everyone immediately points to), but overall the spell list is one of the big disadvantages. You've basically got a sorcerer with a crippled spell list and Bard progression. That also means your spell DCs are lower than a Sorcerer or Arcanist would be.
I've enjoyed playing my little halfling summoner, but if I were to look at doing something like that now it is likely I would go with the Occultist Arcanist for the better spell casting.
If you are just comparing summon monster to summon natures ally then it's generally accepted that summon monster is superior. Personally I think the lists are close enough that it's more about how the rest of the class functions.
My personal rank of summoners:
Master summoner
Arcanist occultist
Saurian shaman
Lion shaman
Summoner, various archetypes
Acadamae graduate wizard
Druid, various
Sorcerer/wizard/oracle
I'm sure I missed one.
If you are just comparing summon monster to summon natures ally then it's generally accepted that summon monster is superior. Personally I think the lists are close enough that it's more about how the rest of the class functions.
My personal rank of summoners:
Master summoner
Arcanist occultist
Saurian shaman
Lion shaman
Summoner, various archetypes
Acadamae graduate wizard
Druid, various
Sorcerer/wizard/oracleI'm sure I missed one.
Sacred summons cleric.
Sacred summons cleric.
Specifically clerics with the Evangelist archetype. The Heroism subdomain or something else that grants a powerful aura is useful too.
In your considerations, don't overlook the planar binding chain of spells, one of the most efficient as well as powerful options for summons. So long as you don't overly abuse the things you summon and stick to relatively simple creatures (like elementals), there's little risk of blowback from frequent use. It requires a decent charisma score, though, which would make this more an option for sorcerers and summoners (less so for wizards).
It requires a decent charisma score, though, which would make this more an option for sorcerers and summoners (less so for wizards).
Wizards can get fine use out of Planar Binding, by simply dominating or Magic Jar-ing the outsiders after they are summoned in. Planar Binding gives you the option of bargaining, but you can always just force the issue.
Aasimar makes a good summoner. My personal favorite for summoner is gnome with their linguist alternate racial. If you can't speak the language of your summon they can't do much more than fight for you.
Regardless of race you will want to pick up auren, aquan and terran language by level 3 when you can summon elementals. Air can scout and carry surprisingly heavy loads through the air. Earth can glide though dungeon walls to scout ahead. Water can scout in water and put out fires.
So if all it comes down to is arcane vs nature style summoning (outside of class/race) are they even? Or does one class have better summonums than another?
If it comes down to summoning creatures of every stripe to attack and confound your foes than the Master Summoner is your better option. If it comes down to having a tanking creature while you sit back and hurl attack spells and the like, then the Druid, particularly the Saurian Shaman. The Saurian Shaman is a freaking swiss army knife.
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A Summoner Sorcerer Suggestion for Build with the race you are thinking about.
Aasimar Sorcerer Celestial Bloodline
Feats
1 Spell Focus [Conjuration]
3 Augment Summoning
5 Extend Spell
7 Still Spell
9 Silent Spell
This way if your group at higher levels encounters enemies, you can summon without being noticed and summon the monsters in the encounter area and have the group come in the other way, it also Grants all your summoned monsters a +4 Str & Con with half your levels in DR/Evil aligned weapons
I don't think I was suggesting otherwise. For the animals you will want handle animal which the summoner also gets as a class skill. Although typically the animals don't need to do much more than attack, as elementals and other intelligent monsters do better tricks anyway.
Never noticed celestials getting free common though.
He was probably referring to everything else the saurian shaman can do. The Druid has a full 9th level spell list. Also wild shape and various other abilities. Also a full animal companion.
It isn't that master summoner is stronger than saurian shaman. It's that the master summoner is a better summoner.
I don't mind the summoner getting early entry on summoning type spells as that is what they are all about. It's in the name. But I agree that summoners should be no better at buffing than a bard. And really the bard could be better.
Summoner always feels like some sort of weird protohybrid of "build a monster" and arcoccultist. The thing is that, a "build a monster" class that wasn't also dragging around summoning could be a lot of fun. I like to call such a class a "contractor". You see contractors all of the time in anime.
So when compared to each other, the Shaman can do more than summon creatures (buff, heal, etc) via Natures Ally, where as the Master Summon focuses more on summoning with a small amount of firepower/buffs for allys/monsters thrown in?
The Druid is really way better at "firepower". The summoner mainly has advantage in summoning and buffing. The important thing to remember is that summoning and buffing can be pretty huge, which is why you can't say which one is really "better" as a class.
The Druid is pretty good at most things. The summoner is really good at just a few important things.
If you are just comparing summon monster to summon natures ally then it's generally accepted that summon monster is superior. Personally I think the lists are close enough that it's more about how the rest of the class functions.
It's really more "quantifiable fact" then just "generally accepted", Summon Monster beats out Summon Natures Ally 19 times of 20. SNA was changed to be 'beat stick/meat shield' only in PF, at least functionally, and even at that role it's only on par at best (only briefly having a lead at V and occasionally VI thanks to Cyclops). While some SNA choice have unique abilities or a handful of spells or spell like abilities they are not a noticeable fraction of what the spells, spell like abilities, and special abilities of the SM summons can do [Mass Lantern beams or Bralani lightning, the various powers SM VI brings (innate True Seeing, Bardic abilities, Dominate Person, sooooo many good ones that level), Bebilith armor rip, Heal spell on SM IXs, etc]. In addition, the templates to animals, Dire Tiger and Tyrano in particular shine, and DR on almost everything means even in the beat stick role SM generally has the edge (and can always fall back on the exact same Elementals as SNA has if the foe requires something Neutral).
That said, total agreement you have to take the spells in relation to the class as a whole. Standard action summons is incredible... but more incredible then everything else Wiz/Cler/etc get? Probably not. SNA is behind even as beat stick yeah... but also given to the class that can easily have a full strength animal companion of any type up all the time.
May want to go through the aasimar wing feats to help keep yourself out of harm's way.
Interesting. I'm leaning towards Master Summoner right now. It sounds like my type of class. As much as I like SNA on the Suarian Druid, SM can summon dinos as well (from what I read, could be wrong). I do like the idea of standing in the back line, summoning a monster for a particular battle and then running around buffing people. Wjich it seems the Master Summoner can do fairly well.
If it hasn't been asked or stated (I didn't see it in a quick browse but might have missed it), How many players total will be in this game?
If you've got 3 or more fellow players at the table, and the GMs turn of course, I cannot recommend strongly enough, for out of game reasons, reconsidering Master Summoner to something else.
As a matter of courtesy, if you have several other players, it's usually best to focus on having just one big pet to contribute. Especially if you're new enough to be having to ask these questions. Even a veteran player who knows stats and rules by heart is hard pressed not to easily triple their turn time if they go Master Summoner.
When your dice rolling is 2/3 of every combat turn, and with combat being such a big part of 3.X/PF, and the other 1/3 still has to be divided amongst 4 other people, that's probably a fun killer.
Wings feat linked.
Has level 10, another feat, and Con 13 prerequisites.
If your GM is really nice, he might let you take the 20 ft poor maneuverability flight alternate racial trait that is number 99 on the list.