|
Hello,
I've got a character concept for PFS that will be using a Rope Dart for their main weapon. I plan on buying an adamantine Rope Dart (which the Dart would be adamantine, the rope still.....rope).
If the enemy attempts to Sunder the rope on the Rope Dart and succeeds. Is my ENTIRE magical item destroyed/broken and I have to pay enormous fees or buy a completely new one? Or can I simply apply another standard rope to the weapon and it still be a +2 adamantine Rope Dart?
When enchanting I presume the +2 magical enhancement is going to the Dart itself as it causes the Dart to have a +2 bonus to pierce and not be deflected off the creatures hide or natural armor and the +2 bonus to damage causing it to be sharper.
What is the PFS call on this? I have a really flavorful idea but I'm forseeing the rope getting Sundered and I'm wanting to know if I end up doing this after enchanting my Rope Dart and end up getting shafted 11k gold instantly.
EDIT: Lets just say that with my concept that I forsee enemies attempting to Sunder my Rope Dart a LOT, and that they'll either target the Dart itself or the Rope....and it'll be a LOT easier to sever the rope than an Impervious Adamantine Dart.
No rules i know about allow anyone to target the rope separately from the dart. They have to sunder the dart with its 20 hardness (it it bothers you think it is on fine adamantine chain or something).
In home game this might make sense, but i would say to player that i am up to such shenanigans because they are not covered in rules. And yes, i would allow to replace the rope with regular rope (is it not in the first place?) if he can retrieve the dart.
In PFS you cant houserule stuff so no.
Rope dart is closest to a projectile weapon so it starts off with a hardness 5 and hp 5. +2 adds 4 hardness and 20 hp. Adamantine changes the base hardness to 20 and adds 1/3 hp.
Added together it has a hardness of 24 and 33 hp. Nowhere in the rules may you target individual parts of a weapon: you must attack it as a whole so someone chopping at the rope must get through that 24 hardness to start damaging it's 33 hp.
|
|
I don't know PFS, it's too much stuff I don't care about and too many horror stories of bad GMs ruining good characters.
But here's the general rules: Adamantine is adamantine, so the rope has hardness even though that's crazy. In fact, if your description includes "thin chain of adamantine" it's not even crazy, it just makes sense.
A mending spell can restore just about any damage to the physical weapon, but not the magic.
Description says "rope" so I can't houserule it as a "thin chain of adamantine".
So from what it sounds like a magical rope dart of 60,000+ cost could be sundered via targeting the rope portion of the weapon and it be completely ruined? Would Make Whole fix this?
*Removed some stuff concerning character concept.
You might want to check the FAQ I linked, as it contradicts your entire post.Rope dart is closest to a projectile weapon so it starts off with a hardness 5 and hp 5. +2 adds 4 hardness and 20 hp. Adamantine changes the base hardness to 20 and adds 1/3 hp.
Added together it has a hardness of 24 and 33 hp. Nowhere in the rules may you target individual parts of a weapon: you must attack it as a whole so someone chopping at the rope must get through that 24 hardness to start damaging it's 33 hp.
Didn't see that as you must have posted as I was posting. Don't recall that FAQ...
Well I guess that's a good reason to replace that rope with a chain then. If nothing else, the base +2 ropedart gets the base magic plus base weapon hp so it's still 4 hardness and 25 hp.
As an option, replace the normal rope with a Bloodvine rope for a base hardness of 5. Darkleaf rope would be a base hardness 10.
|
|
You might want to check the FAQ I linked, as it contradicts your entire post.Rope dart is closest to a projectile weapon so it starts off with a hardness 5 and hp 5. +2 adds 4 hardness and 20 hp. Adamantine changes the base hardness to 20 and adds 1/3 hp.
Added together it has a hardness of 24 and 33 hp. Nowhere in the rules may you target individual parts of a weapon: you must attack it as a whole so someone chopping at the rope must get through that 24 hardness to start damaging it's 33 hp.
Didn't see that as you must have posted as I was posting. Don't recall that FAQ...
Well I guess that's a good reason to replace that rope with a chain then. If nothing else, the base +2 ropedart gets the base magic plus base weapon hp so it's still 4 hardness and 25 hp.
As an option, replace the normal rope with a Bloodvine rope for a base hardness of 5. Darkleaf rope would be a base hardness 10.
Can't replace rope with chain when the weapon specifically calls out rope. I asked a couple of the local GM's last week and they immediately all said in unison "if it says rope in the description then it's rope."
EDIT: Also, Darkleaf calls out "leather, furs, or hides", which I'm not sure if that would allow the rope to be made of Darkleaf. I'm not sure where Bloodvine is from.
Can't replace rope with chain when the weapon specifically calls out rope. I asked a couple of the local GM's last week and they immediately all said in unison "if it says rope in the description then it's rope."You might want to check the FAQ I linked, as it contradicts your entire post.Rope dart is closest to a projectile weapon so it starts off with a hardness 5 and hp 5. +2 adds 4 hardness and 20 hp. Adamantine changes the base hardness to 20 and adds 1/3 hp.
Added together it has a hardness of 24 and 33 hp. Nowhere in the rules may you target individual parts of a weapon: you must attack it as a whole so someone chopping at the rope must get through that 24 hardness to start damaging it's 33 hp.
Didn't see that as you must have posted as I was posting. Don't recall that FAQ...
Well I guess that's a good reason to replace that rope with a chain then. If nothing else, the base +2 ropedart gets the base magic plus base weapon hp so it's still 4 hardness and 25 hp.
As an option, replace the normal rope with a Bloodvine rope for a base hardness of 5. Darkleaf rope would be a base hardness 10.
Then replace it with one of the rope upgrades I suggested. Darkleaf would end up with a hardness of 14. On the edit: you can make cloth items with it as it points out padded armor with it. I don't see how a rope would be out of place.
Bloodvine: advanced class guide, Alchemical Tools.
|
|
So far I see no support on the forums for Darkleaf cloth and 1 post from Nefreet saying rope can't be made of Darkleaf as it only substitutes leather items. link
Don't know if I can add an item to a weapon. It's an alchemical tool and not a special material. I'm really wanting this to work but I'm not seeing either of these suggestions as being allowed at any PFS table and the last thing I want is my magical weapon that I've dumped tens of thousands of gold into to be easily broken with a hardness 0 rope.
Thinking about the Aklys, even if I could flurry with it as a Far Strike Monk I can't retrieve it as a free action like a Rope Dart. Hoping there's some reasonable way to prevent this weapon from having next to nothing for hardness and hp. I could easily see a CR8 or higher creature easily sundering this.
|
|
In my experience sundering doesn't happen often in PFS. Enemies aren't really made for sundering, usually.
Anyway, you can pay 1000 gp for a Fortifying Stone. Raises an item's hardness by 5, break DC by 5, and HP by 20.
** Removed some information to protect character concept before this post becomes unable to be edited.
Where is the Fortifying Stone from?
EDIT: Nvm, found it in the PFS Field Guide.
Make whole is like a level 3 caster level from a scroll since you can't by heightened versions of it, only the lowest CL of the spell for a scroll? So that allows me to repair a +1 Rope Dart? If it gets upgraded to a +3 Rope Dart then Make Whole wouldn't work?
No rules i know about allow anyone to target the rope separately from the dart. They have to sunder the dart with its 20 hardness (it it bothers you think it is on fine adamantine chain or something).So an adamantine rope dart has a hardness of 0, the hardness of the rope.
@OP: Unfortunately, you're out of luck with just replacing the rope. If the rope gets broken you have to repair the object as a whole. And Make Whole isn't all that expensive, at least compared to replacing the weapon.
Intriguing.
But highly disturbing.So my second ruling seems closer to that FAQ.
|
|
Fortifying Stone is from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. It's a great resource for mechanics, but the fluff is all way out of date now.
As for Make Whole, you can't get a scroll of higher than CL3, you CAN hire a caster at whatever CL you need for the low, low price of 20xCL. Here's a link to clarification that you can do this in PFS.
So I'm probably looking at a 6 hardness and 62 hitpoints Rope Dart that has Impervious and a +3 enhancement bonus on it? Placing a Fortifying Stone on it would make it an 11 hardness and 82 hitpoints Rope Dart?
1. Rope has 2 hp and 0 hardness.
2. Add 30 hp and 3 hardness from +3 enhancement.
3. x2 the 30 hp and 3 hardness gained from +3 enhancement due to Impervious weapon quality. Totaling +60 hp and +6 hardness.
4. So I'm looking at 62 hp and 6 hardness.
5. Fortifying Stone adds 20 hp and 5 hardness so the +3 Impervious Rope Dart becomes an 82 hp and 11 hardness Rope Dart.
Anything I'm missing or that I can do to improve this further? This is looking better.
Brilliant Energy?
I don't do PFS so 'shrug'.
On darkleaf it says "Items not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of darkleaf cloth. As such, padded armor, leather armor, studded leather armor, and hide armor can be made out of darkleaf cloth". and "More than simple clothing, padded armor combines heavy, quilted cloth and layers of densely packed stuffing to create a cheap and basic protection." So there is no leather, fur or hide just cloth. Even if you say it MUST be leather, fur, or hide, fur can be used to make a rope. On Nefreet's post, the text itself disagrees with him. Leather is only one of the materials it can be swapped for. That and rawhide can be made into ropes (it's the traditional material for a lariat).
http://survivewhatever.com/?p=47
http://buckarooleather.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-rawhide-reata-work-of-art-a nd-tool.html
Bloodvine: Again, don't do PFS but if they have an issue with you adding this to an item I don't know what to say. It's a PFS legal item. Alchemical Silver is cool so I don't see why it's location is a problem.
|
|
Almost right. It gets 6 Hardness and 30 HP from +3 enhancement (it's 2 per point, not 1 per point), which is then doubled due to Impervious.
So with the stone the final tally is 82 HP and 17 Hardness.
I think you added the +6 hardness from the +3 enhancement twice if I'm not mistaken.
Coming at this from a different angle, I guess I could take the "Ranged Disarm" and "Directed Disarm" feats from the Ranged Tactics Toolbox splatbook to disarm my opponent from range and make the weapon fling 15ft away from the wielder, in the direction I choose. It requires a full-round action, but that would remove anything short of a natural attack against my Rope Dart when I attempt to force my opponent to Sunder my weapon next round after a flurry.
|
|
Brilliant Energy?
Great thinking! This would/should make it so any type of weapon short of a natural attack would pass right through the Rope Dart without damaging it. For my weapon concept I'd be looking at a 72k+ item though as I'm looking to put another +2 ehancement quality on it to do what I'm wanting to do with this character. That would mean I'd either, never reach that weapon in PFS, or reach that weapon right near the end of my character's PFS career. So it wouldn't really help in PFS since I'd never really get to see it in action.
|
|
I did, because that's what Impervious does. It starts at 2 HP, 0 Hardness. +3 makes it 32 HP, 6 Hardness. Impervious makes it 62 HP, 12 Hardness. The stone adds in at the end to make it 82 HP, 17 Hardness.I think you added the +6 hardness from the +3 enhancement twice if I'm not mistaken.Almost right. It gets 6 Hardness and 30 HP from +3 enhancement (it's 2 per point, not 1 per point), which is then doubled due to Impervious.
So with the stone the final tally is 82 HP and 17 Hardness.
Great, thanks. It was getting late on my end and I think my brain was shutting down lol. I think this outcome along with grabbing "Ranged Disarm" and "Directed Disarm" could solve the majority of my problems. Granted I'd be giving up a full attack most likely to make 1 ranged disarm but if that worked I could fling their weapon 15ft and they'd have to use a weaker backup weapon or natural attacks. Creatures that have effective natural attacks I'd probably avoid using my "trick" on them to keep my rope dart from getting sundered.
Also, someone pointed out on the new Technology Guide that there's a Greater Make Whole spell which could help repair my weapon during a scenario.
Yep, and it's in the PRD! Can't beat fixing destroyed magic items
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/technologyGuide/spells.html
|
|
So far, local PFS GM's have responded with "Bloodvine is 50ft rope, the Rope Dart is 12ft rope. If PFS allowed for crafting then you'd be fine, but otherwise you probably can't do that yourself". Also got "there's no specific rules for switching out rope in PFS" and "normal rope in PFS is hemp, not those other materials, so darkleaf wouldn't impart its extra hardness and hp."
So far it looks like my only choice to strengthen a Rope Dart is weapon enchantments and the fortifying stone. I guess I still have Make Whole spells to fall back on also.
If PFS doesn't let you cut your 50' of hemp, silk or bloodvine rope into smaller sections then I'm baffled by their definition of crafting. That seems odd at best.
To switching ropes, why would you need a specific rule to put a different quality rope on the weapon when you have it crafted? merchant crafters just can't tie knots in non-hemp rope?
As to being FORCED to use hemp base. Hemp can be used to make cloth. Cloth is used to make padded armor. Padded armor can be made with darkleaf... Seems pretty nitpicky to disallow.
All that being said, if the PFS GM's in your area are giving you flack like they are, you ARE better going the other route if only to avoid arguments. I just don't agree with their point of view.
If you want to be absurdly literal, there is no "rope" in pathfinder. There is only Rope, Hemp. So when a rope dart says "rope" it is refering to a class of object
There is no reason you can't extrude adamantium fibers and weave a rope out of that.
If you want to be absurdly literal, there is no "rope" in pathfinder. There is only Rope, Hemp. So when a rope dart says "rope" it is refering to a class of object
There is no reason you can't extrude adamantium fibers and weave a rope out of that.
That would be a wire rope. :)
Hemp is a plant, dark leaf is a plant.
I'm having problems understanding why you couldn't get the rope made of a superior material like dark leaf.
Hemp is a plant, dark leaf is a plant.
I'm having problems understanding why you couldn't get the rope made of a superior material like dark leaf.
Because PFS has extremely strict adherence to literal RAW and their houserules to ensure consistent and uniform play due to the way their games are set up. It reduces the chance of issues arising after two different GMs disagree on a particular issue.
I don't like it, but I acknowledge it's necessary for their premise to function. Of course, I don't play PFS at all.
** Removed some information to protect character concept before this post becomes unable to be edited.
Protect it from what?
You afraid goblins are going to crawl into your computer and kill it before you get a chance to play?
Hemp is a plant, dark leaf is a plant.
I'm having problems understanding why you couldn't get the rope made of a superior material like dark leaf.
Even is we go with 'it has to be leather', you can make rawhide ropes.
Because PFS has extremely strict adherence to literal RAW and their houserules to ensure consistent and uniform play due to the way their games are set up. It reduces the chance of issues arising after two different GMs disagree on a particular issue.
I don't like it, but I acknowledge it's necessary for their premise to function. Of course, I don't play PFS at all.
IMO that sounds a bit TOO literal but like you, I don't play PFS. For instance, not being able to cut down a 50' rope just sounds insanely crazy to me but I'm just going to shrug and say 'it's a PFS thing...'.
|
|
I think its the "Items not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of darkleaf cloth." part of Darkleaf that's the problem.
Since the rope is not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide then it's not affected meaningfully. Otherwise Darkleaf probably would have been allowed.
I think its the "Items not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of darkleaf cloth." part of Darkleaf that's the problem.
Since the rope is not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide then it's not affected meaningfully. Otherwise Darkleaf probably would have been allowed.
Both fur and leather can be used to make rope though. The 'rule' is already bend to allow padded to use it. It only if you say rope can ONLY be made out of these limited items that an issue arises.
To see just how for materials for rope can go, look at the item Razored Ropes. It's a lasso made out of "tightly braided lengths of fine chain". But leather is out... :P
Again, I'll just say 'it's a PFS thing...'.
|
|
I think its the "Items not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of darkleaf cloth." part of Darkleaf that's the problem.
Since the rope is not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide then it's not affected meaningfully. Otherwise Darkleaf probably would have been allowed.
Both fur and leather can be used to make rope though. The 'rule' is already bend to allow padded to use it. It only if you say rope can ONLY be made out of these limited items that an issue arises.
To see just how for materials for rope can go, look at the item Razored Ropes. It's a lasso made out of "tightly braided lengths of fine chain". But leather is out... :P
Again, I'll just say 'it's a PFS thing...'.
So, in my last efforts to see if Rope can be made of Darkleaf I think I may have discovered that Darkleaf's description wording does allow for rope to be made of Darkleaf.
The argument was: "Darkleaf says it can be used to make other items, but that items not normally made from fur, leather, or hide is not meaningfully impacted by being made of darkleaf. Normal rope in pathfinder is hemp, not those other materials, so darkleaf wouldn't impart it's extra hardness or hp."
But looking further at the sentence I realized it states "Items not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of darkleaf cloth."
This leads me to believe that paying the Special Material cost to have rope partially made of Darkleaf would have no effect, but that it's possible and quite reasonable to have the entire rope made out of Darkleaf meaning that I could pay the material cost and my Rope Dart would gain the Hardness and HP from Darkleaf.
|
|
Final verdict was that you can't pay for Darkleaf special material costs to have the rope made of Darkleaf on a Rope Dart. Unfortunately that's just how PFS goes sometimes.
If anyone thinks of further possible ways to up the hardness / hp of a Rope Dart feel free to reply but as it stands, different types of ropes or special materials are not allowed to be used on a Rope Dart in PFS.