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Animal Ally already requires 3 feats. (Nature Soul, Animal Ally, and Boon Companion)
Eldritch Heritage is clearly superior because it has unlimited selection on available animals.
It also not technically legal for arcane heritage even if you DO allow wildblooded bloodlines with eldritich heritage because the companion is both the first level power and the arcana, and eldritch heritage only gives you access to the power.
That said, it's not wildly overpowered when compared to animal ally, and they could just take leadership instead.
Nope. If I really wanted one, I'd just grab Leadership.
Thats true I guess, he could just take leadership. I guess I think of that feat as being "The Taboo Feat" because almost nobody allows it, and even Paizo and WOTC before them said that this feat could only ever be taken with DM approval as a warning of its power. Would you allow this in your game though? 1 feat for an animal companion and a bunch of followers seems a bit unbalanced. Although I guess it wouldn't actually be an animal companion. Come to think of it I'm not quite sure how this would even work rules wise, taking an animal instead of another character as your cohort. I mean I know there are rules for players taking non standard races with a level offset in PF. Hmmm.
I wonder if an animal only version of leadership that requires 3 feats would be fair.... You get 1 animal (possibly a magical beast) that is decent strength, and then you get a lot of lesser animals that are more like useful tools (such as combing a forest looking for a trail).
I specifically allow Leadership only for Animal Companions and Familiars... In which case you're treated as a Druid/Wizard of same level. No followers, though.
That's good enough for me.
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There is a lot to that question. One of my players made a monk that used a lot of her early level feats to not only get a griffin companion and was very happy with it. (She said she wanted to be like Aang from Avatar) But we don't play optimized at all, so spending all of her feats to obtain one objective didn't throw off the game nor was she 'holding back' the party.
I'm the only player in our group who reads the forums and looks over a lot of these optimization builds and discussions, but I tailor my game to them because they just want to play. If your group is a bunch of optimization junkies or you have a GM who likes to start throwing out Elder Wyrms at you around level 2, then maybe not.
Personally, I think if a player wants to do that, then let them. Don't punish them for investing into something they want to do, even if other players/forum goers shout yay or nay. Such talk is why I barely ever see a Rogue when I play PFS, yet everyone b&*%+es about not having one when a trap or two shows up in a module.
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Answer to the original question in the topic, no I would not pay 3 feats to get an animal companion, I'd simply play one of the 26 class/archetype options that don't need to spend feats.
Then to the question about about how many feats a fair trade for an animal companion?
I think 2 feats for an animal companion at -3 is quite okay, and then using Boon Companion to get it up to speed. Even if it's only a partial list.
Emparawr: You are mistaken that the Eldritch Heritage for Sylvan Bloodline has had an official ruling against it. It has been a hotly debated topic on the boards, I'll grant you that. However, people sharing their opinions here do not make it an official ruling. In fact, it isn't official until it has been errata'd. It appearing in a FAQ is the next best thing. Even a rules guy (like Sean K. Reynolds, but not someone like James Jacobs) would be something. Unfortunately, we have none of that.
So you are left with making a ruling based on your reading of the rules and if you think it is balanced or not.
You can ask us our opinion on it but I'm not sure how much that matters to you or your group. My personal opinion is that it is both RAW and RAI for Eldritch Heritage to work for not only any Wildblooded Bloodline but for Sylvan Bloodline specifically. I also do not believe that there is a balance issue with allowing this.
For the record, I do not think that a fair measuring stick is to compare it to Leadership. That is the most banned feat in Pathfinder games for a reason. It is the most powerful feat in the game by far. However, if you are trying to make a more limited version of Leadership (without followers and giving a limited selection) I believe that Eldritch Heritage Sylvan accomplishes that just fine. A 3 feat tax for a CL-1 Animal Companion seems balanced to me. A 2 feat tax for a CL-5 Animal Companion also seems balanced to me.
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I have lots of thoughts here. I'm bolding the different sections to break them up.
You're the GM.
You're not playing PFS. If you want to houserule Eldritch Heritage Sylvan, you can.
On Sylvan Bloodline & Eldritch Heritage
Here's my reasoning though for why Eldritch Heritage Sylvan does not work RAW or RAI --
Eldritch Heritage only grants the bloodline power of a sorcerous bloodline. For sylvans (I know, because I play one) the animal companion is not only the bloodline power but ALSO the bloodline arcana. Since Eldritch Heritage does not offer bloodline arcana (and how I wish there was a feat that did) it cannot provide the Sylvan animal companion.
Here are my questions:
Do you as GM think that her AC would be game-breaking?
Do you as GM think that her character concept is fun?
If the answer is no to the first and yes to the second, allow it.
My thoughts on the three feat cost
I would totally pay the three feats to get an animal companion for a bard. (I'll note that my Sylvan Sorcerer has two feats invested in her animal -- boon companion and the human alternate trait "eye for talent." I also have invested one of my two traits and 25% of my skill points. That's how important my AC is to my character.)
If Eldritch Heritage Sylvan were available in PFS, I would take it to get an animal companion for a bard. As it is, for PFS, I am stuck with going Evangelist Cleric in order to get someone with inspire courage and the full druid list of animal companions. Yep, I also want a roc. Flying is fun!
If she wants to fly, there is a great third party book on flying mounted combat. I will see if I can find it for you. If you do allow her to fly, balance it by enforcing ride and handle animal checks. It won't hurt her to invest in those skills.
Hmm
I've never seen anyone play an animal companion and thought "Wow, that's great!" I notice animal companions three times:
1) When travel is limited and we have to figure out how to get Fifi from point A to point B. Overall, a negative.
2) In the middle of combat when a bad guy is taking actions, sometimes the animal does a dozen damage, sometimes the character with the animal spends their actions buffing/healing the animal. I would rather have a character contribute to killing bad guys or helping PCs. The character is limited by the animal as a proxy PC. Overall, an action economy and resource negative.
3) Hyper-Eidolons that dwarf other characters while rendering the summoner impervious to threats. This is the only example that really contributes to the game, but the pet overshadows PCs. Overall, an action economy plus and a roleplay negative, or neutral.
Who does animals?
Druids - limited spell options, situational casting, an animal that limits casting options further, and the ability to buff a kitten to a dire lion. The pathfinder druids I've seen are almost always less useful than a cleric, oracle, sorcerer, ranger, barbarian, wizard, summoner, and bard.
Rangers - The animal is secondary to the hail of arrows, or as a platform for a mounted arrow factory. I've never seen a melee ranger that was significantly enhanced by the cat or horse or whatever next to them.
Cavaliers - I saw a Halfling charger on a dire bat that did around the same damage as a Barbarian of 2 levels lower. Everyone was excited by the 6d6+10 lance damage, once per round, at level 8. Most characters at that level can dish out 30+ damage per round without investing the entire character concept. Some can dish out that damage per attack, with 2-5 attacks per round.
Summoners - The eidolon can become a super-suit of armor with incredible stats, or a mount of epic proportions and attacks, or a super-effective front line combatant. In some cases, the Eidolon has been more effective than the PC. This is NOT an animal companion, so your problem doesn't really apply.
Personally, I think pets are a waste of time. The PCs owning the pet spend time, resources, and combat actions with negligible return on investment. I know, some people REALLY love cats or dogs or horses, but I've never been pleased to have an animal companion at the table, whether as a player or GM.
I would say, go ahead and let the character do what they want. If someone wants to burn 3 feats to create paperwork with limited return on investment, why stop them? If they want to have their animal companion do marginal to poor damage, marginal to poor combat maneuvers, and burn time and resources buffing/healing said companion, go nuts! I could see a Rogue benefiting greatly from a constant flank buddy, but in a group with 4+ PCs it is marginally relevant.
Just my two cents. Some people swear by the animal companion, but most well-built PCs will far outshine a PC with an animal.
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So many archetypes give animal companions...frankly, I don't even see the reason to waste feats to get it. Even if at the beginning of the game, he does Druid 1/Fighter 4, with the feat boon companion, he would still get full animal companion progression. He can stay within 4 levels of animal companion class and still get the full benefit of it without losing much of whatever he is doing.
I've never seen anyone play an animal companion and thought "Wow, that's great!" I notice animal companions three times:
1) When travel is limited and we have to figure out how to get Fifi from point A to point B. Overall, a negative.
2) In the middle of combat when a bad guy is taking actions, sometimes the animal does a dozen damage, sometimes the character with the animal spends their actions buffing/healing the animal. I would rather have a character contribute to killing bad guys or helping PCs. The character is limited by the animal as a proxy PC. Overall, an action economy and resource negative.
3) Hyper-Eidolons that dwarf other characters while rendering the summoner impervious to threats. This is the only example that really contributes to the game, but the pet overshadows PCs. Overall, an action economy plus and a roleplay negative, or neutral.
Who does animals?
Druids - limited spell options, situational casting, an animal that limits casting options further, and the ability to buff a kitten to a dire lion. The pathfinder druids I've seen are almost always less useful than a cleric, oracle, sorcerer, ranger, barbarian, wizard, summoner, and bard.
Rangers - The animal is secondary to the hail of arrows, or as a platform for a mounted arrow factory. I've never seen a melee ranger that was significantly enhanced by the cat or horse or whatever next to them.
Cavaliers - I saw a Halfling charger on a dire bat that did around the same damage as a Barbarian of 2 levels lower. Everyone was excited by the 6d6+10 lance damage, once per round, at level 8. Most characters at that level can dish out 30+ damage per round without investing the entire character concept. Some can dish out that damage per attack, with 2-5 attacks per round.
Summoners - The eidolon can become a super-suit of armor with incredible stats, or a mount of epic proportions and attacks, or a super-effective front line combatant. In some cases, the Eidolon has been more effective than the PC. This...
Currently DMing a game where one character is a Cleric with the Animal Domain and Boon Companion feat. He buffs the wolf up with a variety of spells that result in said wolf doing something like 18D6 or 24D6 on a hit (forget his strength bonus).
Don't have specifics in front of me, but essentially he increases the size with Righteous Might (I think), it has Improved Natural Attack, he has Strong Jaw from a magic item... It's all legit, several of us went over the rules over several hours outside game. This thing can bite most things in half on the first attack.
Granted, this is a level 18/mythic tier 9 game at the moment, so stuff like this isn't the most powerful by far...
Anyway, to answer the OP question: Would I spend three feats to have an animal companion? Yes. On every character I made, I would designate those three feats at the earliest levels possible to allow for that CLASS FEATURE to be added to my character.
Absolutely.
That would be, of course, AFTER taking Leadership. You can do both. Nothing saying you can't.
I just realized you CAN do this on any character. Everything I make from now on will have a wolf companion. Super awesome. :D
Thanks forums! Wolf AC may not be as good as leadership, but they make a heck of a mount for any class!
Plus... big fuzzy pillow that generates heat, yes please.
*scratching Large sized wolf buddy behind the ears*
Course, you need to keep a herd of pigs around or something to feed them... but then, pigs are cheap, and good for driving into dungeons to set off traps so you should have them anyway.
What, your group doesn't keep a pigherder and cobbler on staff? Psssh. You're doing it wrong.
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So many archetypes give animal companions...frankly, I don't even see the reason to waste feats to get it. Even if at the beginning of the game, he does Druid 1/Fighter 4, with the feat boon companion, he would still get full animal companion progression. He can stay within 4 levels of animal companion class and still get the full benefit of it without losing much of whatever he is doing.
The only reason to spend feats on an animal companion is a single class Sohei. Monastaic Mount is frelling fantastic, and access to mounted skirmisher and spirited charge by second level seals Soheis as premier mounted combatants. They just don't get a mount as a class feature.
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In response to Benjamin: animals don't have to be about direct damage in combat, and they don't have to get in the way of other players' fun.
What can an animal companion provide? In my experience, animal companions can offer the following:
1) action economy -- they can act separately from you, but still be part of your team. If you ride them, they can help you by doing your movement for you allowing you to still cast spells or do other stuff.
2) flanking, aiding, fetching, delivering, grappling, tripping -- I went human with eye for talent for a reason. I have a very bright tiger with lots of tricks. Pumpkin aids the party in what they need to do, when they need to do it. His intelligence means he can help in battle without taking glory from the other players. We got him both the "Maneuver (grapple)" trick and the Improved Grapple feat, and he captures enemies alive for us so that we can question them. Bringing them back alive has earned us that precious second prestige point several times.
3) extraordinary movement -- If the creature is your mount, you get the benefit of its movement for positioning. If it's not your mount, it might still be able to get where you need to go and attack or act on your behalf.
- Rocs can fly 80 feet -- Wow.
- Giant Geckos can spider climb -- Wow.
- Even critters that cannot fly can often still move very fast. Wolves and tigers and horses travel much more swiftly than people.
5) other specials -- I am playing in a play by post with a druid who has a giant slug named Squishy. Squishy is brainless and slow, but he has 15 foot reach with his acidic tongue and is quite the combat creature. Other critters can have very interesting specials that players might find fun, adding a lot of role play potential to a game.
6) fun role play options -- "Did you eat that nasty goblin, Pumpkin? Good boy!" I've had tons of fun doting in game over various animal companions. In the play-by-post I've mentioned, our druid promised all a thousand thousand curses if we ate the bag of slugs real quick (a challenge that we were supposed to undertake in a competition) because they were "baby Squishys." It was hilarious.
I will be unabashed. I love animals. I love roleplaying animals sniffing at a fellow character's sandwich and giving them puppy dog eyes. So long as you are contributing to the group and not keeping others from doing their thing, a well roleplayed animal companion can be an asset to any party.
Hmm
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I just realized you CAN do this on any character. Everything I make from now on will have a wolf companion. Super awesome. :D
Thanks forums! Wolf AC may not be as good as leadership, but they make a heck of a mount for any class!
Plus... big fuzzy pillow that generates heat, yes please.
*scratching Large sized wolf buddy behind the ears*Course, you need to keep a herd of pigs around or something to feed them... but then, pigs are cheap, and good for driving into dungeons to set off traps so you should have them anyway.
What, your group doesn't keep a pigherder and cobbler on staff? Psssh. You're doing it wrong.
Alex,
Who doesn't love a wolf? They're awesome!
However, why do you need a pig herder? Get a wand of summon monster I!
(This is coming from the person whose sorceress has only summoned monsters for scouting and other non-combat uses because she cannot bear killing them...)
Of course, since summoned creatures disappear when you kill them, it would be like Chinese takeout food was alleged to be... You'd eat and be hungry half an hour later. Maybe you need that pig herder after all.
Hmm
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There is also a second level Paizo spell called "Carry Companion" that does exactly that. It can be cast by druids, rangers, wizards and sorcerers and is insanely useful. I recommend it for just about every pet class PC.
All pet class PCs should have handle animal, and be expected to roll it when their animal is doing something weird, or after their feathered buddy has been injured. Ride for mounts is a must. The skill tax is part of the price of getting your animal friend.
Hmm
On Sylvan Bloodline & Eldritch HeritageHere's my reasoning though for why Eldritch Heritage Sylvan does not work RAW or RAI --
Eldritch Heritage only grants the bloodline power of a sorcerous bloodline. For sylvans (I know, because I play one) the animal companion is not only the bloodline power but ALSO the bloodline arcana. Since Eldritch Heritage does not offer bloodline arcana (and how I wish there was a feat that did) it cannot provide the Sylvan animal companion.
Your reasoning is equivalent to say that if a feat is both Combat and Teamwork a Fighter can't take it as a bonus Combat feat.
The same for a Cavalier that wants to take it as a bonus Teamwork feat for the Tactician class feature.
The sylvan power count as both, but is not additive and it rather means that it have both the properties for the purpose of abilities that interact with that. Does it count as a blodline power? Yes, so you can take it with eldtritch heritage.
Actually, it can't.
The Wildblooded Archetype must be possessed to have powers from the variant Bloodlines. They aren't new Bloodlines, they're something provided by the Archetype...and thus unavailable for Eldritch Heritage. This is explicitly stated in the FAQ.
Can you point out in which part of the faq is it said? I searched in it and I didn't find anything about Eldritch Heritage at all
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Can you point out in which part of the faq is it said? I searched in it and I didn't find anything about Eldritch Heritage at allActually, it can't.
The Wildblooded Archetype must be possessed to have powers from the variant Bloodlines. They aren't new Bloodlines, they're something provided by the Archetype...and thus unavailable for Eldritch Heritage. This is explicitly stated in the FAQ.
Right here. If you buy my logic, anyway. It doesn't specifically say that you can't take it with Eldritch Heritage, but does specifically say that Wildbloded modifies existing Bloodlines rather than creating new ones.
I may have misremembered that slightly. :)
Can you point out in which part of the faq is it said? I searched in it and I didn't find anything about Eldritch Heritage at allActually, it can't.
The Wildblooded Archetype must be possessed to have powers from the variant Bloodlines. They aren't new Bloodlines, they're something provided by the Archetype...and thus unavailable for Eldritch Heritage. This is explicitly stated in the FAQ.
Right here. If you buy my logic, anyway. It doesn't specifically say that you can't take it with Eldritch Heritage, but does specifically say that Wildbloded modifies existing Bloodlines rather than creating new ones.
I may have misremembered that slightly. :)
It's about archetypes not stacking as both cross and wild modify the same class features as they're worded.
Stricly RAW, the powers granted by the wildblooded archetype ARE bloodline powers of an associated level, so in a sense they can grabbed by EH as it asks you to take Bloodline POWERS and those do exist by themselves.
It's also interesting that the FAQ right under the one you linked implies that bloodline powers gained through the Wildblooded archetype can be accessed by other means.
Of course, since summoned creatures disappear when you kill them, it would be like Chinese takeout food was alleged to be... You'd eat and be hungry half an hour later. Maybe you need that pig herder after all.Hmm
And that's IF you manage to kill, cook, and eat them in the 18 seconds they're on this plane of existence...
As previously stated (in this thread and a number of others) there is nothing official on Eldritch Heritage to get Sylvan Bloodline. There has been no errata on it. It appearing in a FAQ is the next best thing but we do not have that. Even a rules guy (like Sean K. Reynolds, but not someone like James Jacobs) would be something. Unfortunately, we have none of that.
It is all just interpretation of the rules.
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And that's IF you manage to kill, cook, and eat them in the 18 seconds they're on this plane of existence...
Of course, since summoned creatures disappear when you kill them, it would be like Chinese takeout food was alleged to be... You'd eat and be hungry half an hour later. Maybe you need that pig herder after all.Hmm
You'd need to eat them while they are still alive. Like gagh, summoned creatures are best served fresh.
You'd need to eat them while they are still alive. Like gagh, summoned creatures are best served fresh.And that's IF you manage to kill, cook, and eat them in the 18 seconds they're on this plane of existence...
Of course, since summoned creatures disappear when you kill them, it would be like Chinese takeout food was alleged to be... You'd eat and be hungry half an hour later. Maybe you need that pig herder after all.Hmm
Can you drink water elementals?
I think most of the problems from animal companions comes from people not bothering with the rather expansive and limiting set of rules involving animal training and finding. When your DM permits the druid to have a tiger regardless of setting or training, of course it's going to appear powerful at low levels and mostly out of place. When everyone buys a point of intelligence in order to forget about push actions, of course it feels like that guy is just playing 2 characters.
If someone is willing to role-play out scenarios where training an animal takes just as much time in a day as a wizard would spend researching or a cleric would spend making hail mary's there's no reason not to allow them, especially at the expensive cost of feats.
As a DM I've allowed sylvan for eldritch heritage, it comes with an expensive 13 Charisma cost, and a skill focus tax.
I have disallowed a player from having an animal companion when I felt it was taken purely for more actions. Some players play them poorly, they take too much time, steal time away from others, make other party members look bad or unnecessary, etc.
Unlike eidolons and summoned monsters, animal companions are not magically bound to their masters. When a character is bad at animal training, regardless of what their class allows, the animal companion should not be required to stay.
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Like I said, Animal Ally is great on a Sohei, as it's a class that should have a mount but doesn't, AND it slows down progression of core abilities by dipping to get one.
But it's the sole corner case where I feel it's worthwhile to get one via feats when there are so many classes that have them as class features.