I know there are better bluffers out there then the rouge, bluf the game settings demands we all start as 1st level broke (4gp)human rouges.
As the title implies I'm going to attempt to make mine a bluff machine as this appears to be an urban style game it might be handly. We rolled stats, and after the bonus +2 for being human I'll have a 20 cha. So with that a skill point an the +3 for trained then taking the fast talker trait (+1) and skill focus feat (+3) that's a grand total of +12 at 1st level. Any ideas how to push it higher? Also doing charlatan so if they fail once they get -2 for 24 hours vs additional bluffs.
20 CHA on a rogue is overkill. I would move that to Dex or STR and put your second highest roll into CHA if that. Hell, I might dump CHA and just get the Student of Philosophy to have Bluff & Diplomacy be based on INT.
The 20 cha dont bother me We have to start as rouges per bulit in story by gm. I plan on heading down the bard or sorc road after that. With the genorous stat rolls he has i also have a 17 so that will prob be dex and frist single stat increase I get goes to it.
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This annoys the hell out of me, there is no story commandment that a rogue character has to be the rogue class. The rogue class is a collection of mechanics that in no way describes a character as a person or their background. You can have a Seeker Sorcerer as a member of a thieves guild and a master burglar. Class is not role.
But if you're going with it, that's fine.
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A couple things I recommend for your bluffing rogue machine:
Coax Information (Ex) (Advanced Player's Guide): A rogue with this talent can use Bluff or Diplomacy in place of Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward her.
Convincing Lie (Ex) (Ultimate Combat): When a rogue with this talent lies, she creates fabrications so convincing that others treat them as truth. When a rogue with this talent successfully uses the Bluff skill to convince someone that what she is saying is true, if that individual is questioned later about the statement or story, that person uses the rogue’s Bluff skill modifier to convince the questioner, rather than his own. If his Bluff skill modifier is better than the rogue’s, the individual can use his own modifier and gain a +2 bonus on any check to convince others of the lie. This effect lasts for a number of days equal to 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Charisma modifier.
Honeyed Words (Ex) (Advanced Player's Guide): Once per day, the rogue can roll two dice while making a Bluff check, and take the better result. She must choose to use this talent before making the Bluff check. A rogue can use this ability one additional time per day for every five rogue levels she possesses.
Rumormonger (Ex) (Ultimate Combat): A rogue with this talent can attempt to spread a rumor though a small town or larger settlement by making a Bluff check. She can do so a number of times per week equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0). The DC is based on the size of the settlement, and it takes a week for the rumor to propagate through the settlement. If the check succeeds, the rumor is practically accepted as fact within the community; succeeding by 5 or more over the DC decreases the time it takes the rumor to propagate by 1d4 days. A failed check means the rumor failed to gain traction, while failing by 5 or more causes the opposite of the rumor or some other competing theory involving the rumor’s subject to take hold.
Community Size DC
Small town 18
Large town 20
Small city 25
Large city 30
Metropolis 35
Unwitting Ally (Ex) (Ultimate Combat): A rogue with this talent can spend a swift action to attempt to make an opponent act like an ally for purposes of providing a flank until the beginning of the rogue’s next turn. The opponent must be able to hear and see the rogue, and the rogue must succeed at a Bluff check opposed by the opponent’s Sense Motive. If the check succeeds, the opponent acts as an ally for the purpose of providing a flank. Whether or not the check succeeds, the rogue cannot use this trick again on the same opponent for the next 24 hours. If the rogue fails the check by 5 or more, she cannot use the unwitting ally ability on any opponent within line of sight of the failed attempt for 24 hours.
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Well in this DMs defence you don't know he said they could only be Rogues because they were starting off as Thieves Guild members (although it's the logical assumption)....maybe they're just starting as 4 characters who have been trained as rogues so far but then cast out into the big bad world to learn other stuff ('Gentleman Bastards' anyone?)
Yes, but there is no reason for Thieves Guild members to be the rogue class. You could have a Thieves Guild that is full of theives, cutpurses, burglars, con men, smugglers, rakes, cutthroats, scum and villainy without having a single member of the rogue class.
The rogue role is not the sole domain of the rogue class.
The rogue role is not the sole domain of the rogue class.
Hence the proliferation of archetypes and alternate classes that have since displaced the Rogue (class)!
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looking at honeyed words (let's you roll bluff twice, keep the highest) I was curious to evaluate the actual benefit of the talent in comparison to a straightforward +15% chance via skill focus bluff... the results were interesting (please note that my stats may be off as I haven't set foot in academia in at least 15 years)
It looks like reroll feats/talents have diminishing returns as the DC go up or down (i.e. it gets worse if you need to roll more or less than 10! i.e. it's optimal if the task / save has a 50/50 chance)
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desired roll // improved chances to get desired roll by rolling twice
any (1-20) // +0%
20 // +5%
18-20 // +13%
17-20 // +16%
16-20 // +19%
11-20 // +25%
6-20 // +19%
5-20 // +16%
2-20 // +5%
In other words, Skill Focus +15% is pretty solid all the time, while a reroll is only desirable when you hope to roll anywhere from 5 to 17...
Regardless of you having Skill Focus or not, the morale is:
don't waste your daily re-roll if you need to roll 18 or higher!
To the rogue-haters in this thread: No other class can get the Rumormonger ability. "If the check succeeds, the rumor is practically accepted as fact within the community." YES PLEASE! I've wanted to build a Charlatan for the longest time, just because this ability is so damn cool.
If you do take Sorcerer levels, the Rakshasa bloodline will give you an additional +5 on your Bluff checks.
The Power of Suggestion trait is very cool as well. More-or-less flat DC to make everyone believe an object in your hand is something else, no save.
Coax Information is a cool talent - use Bluff instead of Intimidate to get information.
For gear, pick up a wand of Honeyed Tongue so your Diplomacy skills will be excellent as well.
Human alternate racial ability Focused Study is good if you are taking skill focus anyway.
Human alternate racial ability Silver Tongue gives +2 to bluff and diplomacy.
Deceitful stacks with skill focus for another +2
5 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 17
I don't think it can be raised more without money or magic.
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To the rogue-haters in this thread: No other class can get the Rumormonger ability. "If the check succeeds, the rumor is practically accepted as fact within the community." YES PLEASE! I've wanted to build a Charlatan for the longest time, just because this ability is so damn cool.
If you do take Sorcerer levels, the Rakshasa bloodline will give you an additional +5 on your Bluff checks.
The Power of Suggestion trait is very cool as well. More-or-less flat DC to make everyone believe an object in your hand is something else, no save.
Coax Information is a cool talent - use Bluff instead of Intimidate to get information.
For gear, pick up a wand of Honeyed Tongue so your Diplomacy skills will be excellent as well.
Cool! A class known for sneak-attacks, evasion, trapfinding, sneaking, and thievery is the best at spreading rumors!
To the rogue-haters in this thread: No other class can get the Rumormonger abilityArcheologist & Negotiator Bard can.
My mistake. At 10th or 12th level, a bard can get the ability that the Charlatan gets at 3rd level.
Wow thought this thread died a couple days ago til I logged back on. I'm sure stayinf charlatan rouge til level three. Still havent decided where to go after that. Yes Gm stated we had to start as rouge class, but that fine at level 2 we can branch out and it helps give the party all a reason to be together. A lot of good suggestions here thanks everyone.
To the rogue-haters in this thread: No other class can get the Rumormonger abilityArcheologist & Negotiator Bard can.
As can the Slayer!
As can the Slayer!To the rogue-haters in this thread: No other class can get the Rumormonger abilityArcheologist & Negotiator Bard can.
Nope, slayers cannot get the Rumormonger talent.
Any rouge archtypes stack with charlatan?
Nope, slayers cannot get the Rumormonger talent.As can the Slayer!To the rogue-haters in this thread: No other class can get the Rumormonger abilityArcheologist & Negotiator Bard can.
You're right. Saw advanced talents ability and didn't read it through.
Of course, Slayers (and anyone, really) can still just use bluff regularly to get innkeeps/tavern owners and other sources of gossip to believe an untruth. Takes a bit longer, but same result.
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Bluffing Rouge
Aura faint divination; CL 5th
Slot none; Price 2500 gp; Weight 1 lbs.
Description
This small compact holds magical powder which can be used as part of a disguise. When applied, the wearer gains a +5 circumstance bonus on both bluff and disguise checks for the next 8 hours, or until the rouge is washed off.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, enhanced diplomacy; Cost 1250 gp
I've known more than a few women who have used this to attempt to enhance their charisma scores on a Friday night.
Heh, read the title as "blushing rouge". Got REALLY confused
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I suggest the trait Clever Wordplay. It allows you to use INT rather than CHA for one CHA-based skill. You will want INT at least 13 to take Combat Expertise and Improved Bluff feats, so you might as well use it for bluff and then you don't need charisma for combat. If I were to play a rogue focused on bluffing, I would boost DEX and INT, play a human, and do:
1: Combat Expertise, Improved Bluff
2: Rogue Finesse
3: Skill Focus (Bluff)
4: Bleeding Attack
5: Weapon Focus Rapier
6:Fast Stealth
7: Fencing Grace
8: Combat Trick - Greater Feint
I wanted to go all snarky on the rogue/rouge thing, but enough posters have already done that.
Awesome everyone thanks. I'm sure i have just about maxed bluffing at level 1, but to back that up i'd like to forge false documents. Linguistics is the skill for that anyone know how to make ones self a master forger ie: traits, equipment,or feats?
Convincing lie is actively terrible. Before it got printed, I'm pretty sure the base assumption was that sense motive on someone you lied to would result "he thinks it's true" since well, he thinks it's true!
But apparently, even if you are 100% convinced what you are saying is true, you need to roll bluff so people don't find out what you are saying is actually a lie. Although you don't know it's a lie, and need to bluff.
It's like... what?
I hate stealth nerfs like this. It is probably my least favorite part of having an evolving game. Cool new power comes out and what it really does is prevent everyone who doesn't have it from doing something they could already do.
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I would disagree that the "Convincing Lie" ability was ever standard.
*PC w/o Convincing Lie convinces NPC#1 he is truly a dragon*
NPC#1: "I'm a dragon!"
NPC#2: "No, you're an idiot."
*PC with Convincing Lie convinces NPC#1 he is truly a dragon*
NPC#1: "I'm a dragon! I know it sounds far-fetching, but consider that..."
NPC#2: "Wow! I guess you really must be a dragon!"
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I suggest the trait Clever Wordplay. It allows you to use INT rather than CHA for one CHA-based skill. You will want INT at least 13 to take Combat Expertise and Improved Feint feats, so you might as well use it for bluff and then you don't need charisma for combat. If I were to play a rogue focused on bluffing, I would boost DEX and INT, play a human, and do:
1: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint
2: Rogue Finesse
3: Skill Focus (Bluff)
4: Bleeding Attack
5: Weapon Focus Rapier
6: Fast Stealth
7: Fencing Grace
8: Combat Trick - Greater FeintI wanted to go all snarky on the rogue/rouge thing, but enough posters have already done that.
I meant Improved Feint before in the list of feats and rogue talents. I figured you were planning to use the feint maneuver to make your opponents flat-footed so you can get more sneak attacks without flanking.
Feel free to get all snarky on me.
While reserching this topic I have descovered a possible problem. How do I stop an inquisator's discern lies ability?
Soo if I prevent magical detection of my lies it still wont stop thier class ability?
I have considered dipping into sorc at level 4 would the Rakshasa bloodline ability silvered tongue help?
If you're thinking of dipping anyways, why not just go whole hog and build an arcane trickster. Granted you aren't entering it in the most efficient way, but it is certainly a really strong and interesting choice for a blending of arcane magic and the rogue class. I'm a big fan of Impromptu Sneak Attack and Ranged Ledgermain, so maybe I'm just biased. I'd suggest the 3pp Undefeatable 11: Arcane Trickster if your GM will approve it. It allows you to use some feats to take the pain out of the prestige class curve.
Intresting had not considered that before but will for sure look into it.
I'm not good and figure up magic item creation costs. What would a it cost to have a 1/day and 3/day gilbness added to an item?
Oh à ring of mind shielding would work right ?
Ring of Mind Shielding would work, yeah.
The Rakshasa bloodline power really isn't that bad, either. If you take Magical Knack (which you should if you're dipping) then the DC starts at 13 at 4th level. Keep in mind it's a caster level check, so even a DC 13 is enough to beat an even-level inqusitor 40% of the time. If you keep taking sorcerer levels, their chances never get any better. It's no sure-thing, but it's not bad either. Plus, you get a Will save on top of the Rakshasa ability.
Any idea on price of affing giblness 1-3 à day on an item