Golem V.S. create pit + alchemist fire; is it really that simple?

[Uthak]

Ok, so here is what I need help getting a ruling on. Party it attacked by a golem, party wizard responds by casting create pit, golem fails save and goes into the pit. rest of party throws a bottle of alchemist fire into pit. Given the rules for using alchemist fire, and the golems nonexistent int. score this tactic seems to nerf any golem fight i could ever throw at my group again.

Are the players right or is there something that we are missing.

Any and all help would be great.

[Nessus_9th]

Why cant the golem climb out? I get that he is not intelligent but if his orders are to kill anyone who enters the room (for example) then he will use the movement that is most appropriate to get to his enemies.

[Aratrok]

The golem can certainly try to climb out, but it's going to be slow and take a lot of hits. Honestly though, nothing is going to nerf your golems more than being golems. They have abysmal saving throws.

[Malag]

If they attempt to throw flasks, they might risk falling down the pit themselves. Edges around create pit spell are slippery and provoke a Reflex Save if I recall right.

Adam

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Does the entire party have bottles of alchemist's fire? This is a pretty expensive method of attacking. You can always throw a golem that's immune to fire at them.

The golem would presumably continue to try to climb out during this period and if it succeeds (golems have good strength so it's likely to) it can continue to attack.

I don't see why a golem is any more at risk from this tactic than any other creature.

[Bronnwynn]

Malag wrote:

If they attempt to throw flasks, they might risk falling down the pit themselves. Edges around create pit spell are slippery and provoke a Reflex Save if I recall right.

Adam

They don't have to be at the very edge to throw things in. Especially splash weapons like that.

[Dafydd]

Should also point out, there are many large golems who are too small to fall into a pit. So on that note, this does not nerf all golem battles, just the ones with smaller portable golems.

FYI, the deeper the pit (such as hungry or acid) the longer it could take to climb out, but the golem will spend the first few rounds out of range of the splash weapons.

[kestral287]

It depends on the particular Construct and/or Golem, really. Alchemist's Fire does energy damage, which is halved and then applied to hardness against objects. This isn't much good for Golems in particular (they have DR instead), but any construct with a Hardness score would laugh off Alchemist's Fire.

Iron Golems laugh off Alch's Fire by default (in fact it heals them), but that might not be particularly helpful here if they have alternate ranged attacks that can punch through/bypass its DR.

Create Pit requires a DC25 Climb check to get out of-- there's no reason why a Golem wouldn't be able to climb out of a pit to get to the people it's been ordered to crush. An Iron Golem (just using it as an example here) has a Strength score of 32, meaning a +11. Not necessarily easy to climb out of the pit, but doable, especially if Alchemist's Fire is the best form of offense that they have.

Alternately, the Mithril Golem would mock this strategy. Fluid Form gives it a 30' reach, big enough to catch anyone at the lip of the spell... and I'd rule that with a 30' reach and a less-than-solid body it could just grab the edge of the pit and pull itself up for a vastly reduced Climb check.

Admittedly, some of this depends on how smart you think golems are. They're designed to follow orders, and can perceive their environment, so if ordered to kill X, they're intelligent enough to go around a wall to get to X. Similarly, they should be intelligent enough to climb out of a pit. Now, I wouldn't have a golem roll on the ground to smother a fire unless ordered to-- they have no reason to do that in order to fulfill their mission of "Kill X", so they don't.

[Magda Luckbender]

The alternate approach, which I've seen slice up many golems, is Create Pit followed by Summon Monster III. Summon a Lantern Archon to fly above the pit and zap the golem's touch AC with damage that cuts through all DR. Enhanced with Inspire Courage this is 10+ HP per round directly to actual HP totals. If it's a really big golem get multiple archons.

Yes, the Create Pit spells pretty much auto-neutralize most golems. It's then easy to destroy them. This is why wizards et al are Tier I.

[Uthak]

Alchemist fire is only 20 gp, the main problem is that the golem eat up the whole area of the 10 x 10 pit, all the party has to do is get them into the pit and they hit the golem. with 4 party members left to act after the wizard pits the golem that is 4d6 points of dmg. It has two options at this point spend a full round rolling around to put out the flames( halting it climbing out), or reflex save to avoid 4d6 points of fire dmg again(witch it will more than likely fail), and mind that it would be 4 separate saves one for each bottle.

the only thing I can think of that stops this from working is if the golems DR works against the fire dmg, is that the case?

[Malag]

Bronnwynn wrote:

Malag wrote:

If they attempt to throw flasks, they might risk falling down the pit themselves. Edges around create pit spell are slippery and provoke a Reflex Save if I recall right.

Adam

They don't have to be at the very edge to throw things in. Especially splash weapons like that.

Think 3D, not 2D. Your target is 30 ft. underground.

[Bob Bob Bob]

So create pit is 10x10. With that information, remember it's -10 to the Climb DC if the golem can brace against opposite walls (all large creatures) and -5 if it can brace against a corner (...all creatures?). Additionally golems tend to have high strength so that helps the climb checks. The Iron Golem succeeds with a 4 (or a -1 if you allow corner and chimney to stack). And as someone pointed out, anyone standing on the edge of the pit has to make a save or fall in and anyone not on the edge of the pit does not have line of sight or effect more than 5 feet (assuming medium creatures) down into the pit. If they're just throwing alchemist's fire into the hole and hoping it hits something then that's different from a thrown splash weapon and probably falls under the falling object rules. That changes it from a ranged touch attack to a DC 15 reflex save.

Golems are giant piles of hit points that can punch things and are "immune" to magic. You can still kite them with ranged attacks, you can still use magic that doesn't affect them directly, you can still beat them with technicalities. They're not challenging opponents and haven't been for a very long time.

And DR does not work against energy attacks, you would need energy resistances or hardness.

[kestral287]

Uthak wrote:

Alchemist fire is only 20 gp, the main problem is that the golem eat up the whole area of the 10 x 10 pit, all the party has to do is get them into the pit and they hit the golem. with 4 party members left to act after the wizard pits the golem that is 4d6 points of dmg. It has two options at this point spend a full round rolling around to put out the flames( halting it climbing out), or reflex save to avoid 4d6 points of fire dmg again(witch it will more than likely fail), and mind that it would be 4 separate saves one for each bottle.

the only thing I can think of that stops this from working is if the golems DR works against the fire dmg, is that the case?

DR doesn't work on energy damage. Hardness does, but unless you want to houserule-replace all golem's DR with Hardness that doesn't help (admittedly, I think such a houserule makes sense, since most constructs have hardness and they're ultimately objects, but that's me).

Actually though, the golem filling the pit makes this very easy. Under the Climb skill modifiers, we have a -10 for "Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls."

DC 25 check - 10 for being able to brace like that = even a Clay Golem (Str 24) has a 65% chance of succeeding on the Climb roll.

[Bronnwynn]

Malag wrote:

Bronnwynn wrote:

Malag wrote:

If they attempt to throw flasks, they might risk falling down the pit themselves. Edges around create pit spell are slippery and provoke a Reflex Save if I recall right.

Adam

They don't have to be at the very edge to throw things in. Especially splash weapons like that.

Think 3D, not 2D. Your target is 30 ft. underground.

Your target is 10 feet tall. You can probably see his far side without being at the very edge... especially since it's slippery because of a slope.

[kestral287]

Bronnwynn wrote:

Malag wrote:

Bronnwynn wrote:

Malag wrote:

If they attempt to throw flasks, they might risk falling down the pit themselves. Edges around create pit spell are slippery and provoke a Reflex Save if I recall right.

Adam

They don't have to be at the very edge to throw things in. Especially splash weapons like that.

Think 3D, not 2D. Your target is 30 ft. underground.

Your target is 10 feet tall. You can probably see his far side without being at the very edge... especially since it's slippery because of a slope.

If we really want to get technical with our math, this is valid. Assuming all PCs are 5' high and standing 5' back from the edge of the pit, they have to look down 60 degrees to see the back half of the golem 20' below their feet. They're good to back up another ten feet even; more than that and they'd lose line of effect.

[Rathendar]

Without being on the edge they can't target the golem for the alchemist fire and it would only take splash damage. It could still be volleyed to death, but it would take a good while and/or lots of alchemist fire. Still a win, but not a fast one.

[Nicos]

Aratrok wrote:

The golem can certainly try to climb out, but it's going to be slow and take a lot of hits. Honestly though, nothing is going to nerf your golems more than being golems. They have abysmal saving throws.

Yup.

FOr some reason golems are weak agaisnt magic.

[Malag]

Bronnwynn wrote:

Malag wrote:

Bronnwynn wrote:

Malag wrote:

If they attempt to throw flasks, they might risk falling down the pit themselves. Edges around create pit spell are slippery and provoke a Reflex Save if I recall right.

Adam

They don't have to be at the very edge to throw things in. Especially splash weapons like that.

Think 3D, not 2D. Your target is 30 ft. underground.

Your target is 10 feet tall. You can probably see his far side without being at the very edge... especially since it's slippery because of a slope.

Your target is 30 ft. underground. Even if he was 10 ft. away from the top, it wouldn't be possible completely. You would need higher ground nearby.

[Gauss]

While Create Pit is a nice speedbump for a golem it is not a serious long term solution.

Factoring in the -15 DC modifier the DC is not a serious problem for most golems.

A speed 20 Golem can climb the 30feet in 3 rounds while a speed 30 golem can do it in 2 rounds.

Assuming 1 round of actual attacks while the golem is still hanging at the top of the climb that means you only have 1-2 rounds of alchemist fire splash damage. Not really a lot.

Bob Bob Bob,

A GM would have to houserule that the -10 for opposite sides does not stack with the -5 for corners. The rulebook specifically states that the modifiers are cumulative and to apply all that apply.

[TriOmegaZero]

That's a lot of alchemist fire at 2d6 per throw. Remember, alchemist fire only continues to burn the round after a direct hit.

[Murdock Mudeater]

How large is the golem in question? Although higher levels of this spell get deeper pits, it doesn't get wider. There should be a physical limit on how large a creature is even subject to this spell.

As DM, a size bonus to reflex which increased for large and huge creatures. Anything bigger is unaffected.

Anyway, the book often refers to golems as opponents that are easier to evade that to directly attack. Even if you drop the golem inside and he climbs out, you may have enough time to just leave the combat while it tries to climb out. Don't have to kill everything you encounter...

[Gauss]

About half of the golems in the 4 bestiaries are large. The remaining seems to be split about evenly between Medium and Huge.

[LazarX]

Players facing Huge golems will need to find another cheese method.

[Blakmane]

Golems are very susceptible to a whole bunch of spells. Do not run them as solo encounters like that - they need some form of backup to keep them relevant. In fact, don't run ANYTHING as a solo encounter if you can avoid it: pathfinder does not cope well with solos.

Your players used a standard, but well thought-out method to beat your encounter. Do not punish them for this or they will become resentful. Not every encounter has to be some nail-biting do-or-die.

But yes, golems are weak to magic, as long as the wizard has come well prepared. Hell, fly alone is almost auto-win against 90% of golems. If they aren't using pit they'll just use another SR:no spell like glitterdust, grease, illusions etc etc.

[Undone]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

I don't see why a golem is any more at risk from this tactic than any other creature.

Golems cannot fly.

[Nicos]

Blakmane wrote:

But yes, golems are weak to magic, as long as the wizard has come well prepared. Hell, fly alone is almost auto-win against 90% of golems. If they aren't using pit they'll just use another SR:no spell like glitterdust, grease, illusions etc etc.

Dazing snowball, because non magical snowballs can be that dangerous.

[Nicos]

Undone wrote:

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

I don't see why a golem is any more at risk from this tactic than any other creature.

Golems cannot fly.

And most do not have ranged weapons nor the intelligence to run for cover.

[Create Mr. Pitt]

Hungry pit is particularly nasty against golems. Also glitterdust. Conjuration for the win against golems; particularly with archons. Aqueous orb can also be useful, particularly if it leaves the pit.

[boring7]

Uthak wrote:

Ok, so here is what I need help getting a ruling on. Party it attacked by a golem, party wizard responds by casting create pit, golem fails save and goes into the pit. rest of party throws a bottle of alchemist fire into pit. Given the rules for using alchemist fire, and the golems nonexistent int. score this tactic seems to nerf any golem fight i could ever throw at my group again.

Are the players right or is there something that we are missing.

Any and all help would be great.

The players are right, and should be rewarded for their smart-thinking with victory. As well as the expense of 20-30 alchemy weapons thrown away (very rough estimate, lazy math tonight) that DOES add up.

But let us consider the downsides:

First, I would house-rule that it was touch AC 15 to sink a shot all the way down. Tossing an item from 5 feet away down a 30+ foot shaft is a bit challenging, still easy for a fighter-type.

Second, as mentioned above numerous times the golem CAN climb, it's big enough to brace and ends up with a decent chance (depending on the pit spell).

Third, with damage that low duration comes into play. Drop a golem down a pit and toss your little 3.5 points of damage vials, it will probably still be alive when the rounds/level run out. More created pits mean more reflex saves it might make.

Fourth, golems can be made into shield guardians that heal small-change damage, given modifications like resistance to elements, or simply used in conjunction with other enemies. Not every golem fight is going to just be a golem, some will involve (element) creatures throwing healing attacks at it, spellcasters ordering it around and throwing spells/counterspells around, or other factors.

Not every fight needs to be a struggle, not every struggle needs to be a fight, and not every enemy uses the same tactics.

[boring7]

Nicos wrote:

Undone wrote:

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

I don't see why a golem is any more at risk from this tactic than any other creature.

Golems cannot fly.

And most do not have ranged weapons nor the intelligence to run for cover.

MOST golems cannot fly. There is at least one (Iron Archer) that can.

A question: Can a golem be buffed with things like the fly spell?

Their magic immunity says this:

Quote:

An iron golem is immune to spells or spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance.

Immunity itself says this:

Quote:

A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.

From that it seems no, but it also seems kind of silly that you can cast Angelic Aspect to make a golem grow wings but you can't cast fly on it.

Other spells with no SR that get a golem up a pit include Levitate and reverse gravity. There may be more but the search tools I was using aren't the best at sorting that particular variable.

[Blakmane]

boring7 wrote:

A question: Can a golem be buffed with things like the fly spell?

I think you answered your own question there. No, they can't be buffed with anything that is SR:yes. Angelic aspect is a personal spell that cannot be applied to the golem. Levitate works but doesn't really help: the golem cannot move sideways to engage opponents this way.

The best way to deal with flying is to have the golem rip chunks out of the scenery and throw them at the party (large/huge improvised weapons at a -4 to hit, doing maybe 1d10/2d6+STR damage). If the party is very high up, the golem retreats.

Although golems are mindless, this doesn't preclude SOME combat tactics --- think of it as programming. Any crafter worth his salt will take into account the possibility of flying/pits etc. These are still major golem weaknesses though, and the reason why golems on their own are really really bad encounters. Always pair them with a low ceiling, difficult terrain, additional monsters or a spellcaster.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Magda Luckbender wrote:

The alternate approach, which I've seen slice up many golems, is Create Pit followed by Summon Monster III. Summon a Lantern Archon to fly above the pit and zap the golem's touch AC with damage that cuts through all DR. Enhanced with Inspire Courage this is 10+ HP per round directly to actual HP totals. If it's a really big golem get multiple archons.

Yes, the Create Pit spells pretty much auto-neutralize most golems. It's then easy to destroy them. This is why wizards et al are Tier I.

Wouldn't golems be immune to summoned monsters?

[boring7]

no.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

I thought summoned monsters had to check SR. is that a change from 3rd edition or am I just remembering that wrong?

[Mojorat]

What type of golem was it? Killing most golem with AF would take forever. First dropping 4 alchemist fire in one round would result in 4d6 dmg followed by.... 1d6 dmg. Adding more doesn't make them burn more. Create pit is only 1rnd per level and most coleman have alot of hp.

[Undone]

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

I thought summoned monsters had to check SR. is that a change from 3rd edition or am I just remembering that wrong?

No it has "See Spell" because SR has an interaction for other spells.

[twells]

Silent Image works even better for shutting down golems (and constructs, and mindless non-incorporeal undead). Mindless = no chance they interact with a wall-type illusion.

[Blakmane]

twells wrote:

Silent Image works even better for shutting down golems (and constructs, and mindless non-incorporeal undead). Mindless = no chance they interact with a wall-type illusion.

This isn't true. As written, there is nothing stopping a golem from interacting with an illusion. 'Mindless' simply means they have no feats or skills and are immune to mind-affecting effects, RAW.

[Bacon666]

Golems are easy to hit, and lousy saves... So yes, the tactic mentioned by OP could work...

Gm tactic for comming golem figths should now be:

1: more of the same (this gives credits for good player thinking

2: flying Golems (as some1 wrote higher up, golem crafters should know that pits are very effective vs. Golems)

3: Golems with element immunities (golem crafter knows his golem wa fried by alchemist fire makes the next one immune/resistant to fire...)

4: Golems with backup (look at the party when their pit got dispelled... Or being fured.)

5: all of the above (campaign ending figth = high-level wizard, ranged damage backup, golem frontline a few divines to heal/make whole/disspell, all prepped for the elite party due to several levels of scrying...)

[twells]

Blakmane wrote:

twells wrote:

Silent Image works even better for shutting down golems (and constructs, and mindless non-incorporeal undead). Mindless = no chance they interact with a wall-type illusion.

This isn't true. As written, there is nothing stopping a golem from interacting with an illusion. 'Mindless' simply means they have no feats or skills and are immune to mind-affecting effects, RAW.

While that is technically true, a GM who directs a mindless creature to question what is before their eyes isn't really playing a mindless creature correctly now, are they.

And figments are not mind-affecting effects, so that does not apply. ( mind-affecting effects = charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)

Now, if you do not have eyes and are mindless, that is a different story ...

[GM_Solspiral]

Is the Iron Golem still healed by fire? Do that at some point.

[TriOmegaZero]

twells wrote:

While that is technically true, a GM who directs a mindless creature to question what is before their eyes isn't really playing a mindless creature correctly now, are they.

Mindlessly Kool-Aid-Manning the illusory wall is playing correctly.

[twells]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

twells wrote:

While that is technically true, a GM who directs a mindless creature to question what is before their eyes isn't really playing a mindless creature correctly now, are they.

Mindlessly Kool-Aid-Manning the illusory wall is playing correctly.

I do not get your response. Are you saying that it is guarding the illusion wall, or breaking through it a-la Kool-Aid style?

If it is breaking through Kool-Aid style, then it would probably have had to been instructed to do so, such as "If you see anything approach this area, follow it until you destroy it" or some other (simple) condition. In which case, it should also attempt to go through normal walls as well.

[TriOmegaZero]

twells wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

twells wrote:

While that is technically true, a GM who directs a mindless creature to question what is before their eyes isn't really playing a mindless creature correctly now, are they.

Mindlessly Kool-Aid-Manning the illusory wall is playing correctly.

I do not get your response. Are you saying that it is guarding the illusion wall, or breaking through it a-la Kool-Aid style?

I am saying that if you throw up an illusionary wall to stop it, it will attempt to break through the wall to get to you the same as if you used wall of stone.

[Jiggy]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

twells wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

twells wrote:

While that is technically true, a GM who directs a mindless creature to question what is before their eyes isn't really playing a mindless creature correctly now, are they.

Mindlessly Kool-Aid-Manning the illusory wall is playing correctly.

I do not get your response. Are you saying that it is guarding the illusion wall, or breaking through it a-la Kool-Aid style?

I am saying that if you throw up an illusionary wall to stop it, it will attempt to break through the wall to get to you the same as if you used wall of stone.

Or more to the point, it will react to the illusory wall in the same way as it would react to a real wall, regardless of what that reaction might be.

[twells]

Jiggy wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

twells wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

twells wrote:

While that is technically true, a GM who directs a mindless creature to question what is before their eyes isn't really playing a mindless creature correctly now, are they.

Mindlessly Kool-Aid-Manning the illusory wall is playing correctly.

I do not get your response. Are you saying that it is guarding the illusion wall, or breaking through it a-la Kool-Aid style?

I am saying that if you throw up an illusionary wall to stop it, it will attempt to break through the wall to get to you the same as if you used wall of stone.

Or more to the point, it will react to the illusory wall in the same way as it would react to a real wall, regardless of what that reaction might be.

What he said.

[TriOmegaZero]

twells wrote:

What he said.

Which is what I said.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

twells wrote:

What he said.

Which is what I said.

I say it too!!!

Wait. What are we doing?

[TriOmegaZero]

*casts silent image of a wall* U CAN'T C ME, TCG!

[Rogar Stonebow]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

twells wrote:

What he said.

Which is what I said.

I say it too!!!

Wait. What are we doing?

Can someone tell me what to say?