Military Question (Cheliax)


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


I have a couple of questions about military matters and the lovely nation of Cheliax.

Namely, is there any listing of approximate military strength and numbers, composition of hellknights versus normal legions? And about what a typical garrison or fort might hold?

I didn't see anything really in the inner sea guide or the Cheliax specific splat book. Was hoping for some facts for a home game that is ramping up to possible larger scale warfare.

Thanks


2 days and no response? Maybe the lack of interest to militaria is the answer to your question, why there are almost no military details in the myriards of setting books. :)

Liberty's Edge

They have enough military force that, despite almost everyone disliking them, nobody's conquered them. But not enough they can afford to go on an offensive war of any size or length and still reliably maintain that kind of even partial unassailability.

That's all inferred from Cheliax's existence and attitudes and the attitudes displayed towards them by other nations, and that's all the info there is. The exact numbers of troops are up to the individual GM, as indeed they are for every other nation. Precise details on number of troops are something Pathfinder is only likely to provide if you wind up fighting them, and there has yet to be an adventure where you fight the entire military might of Cheliax, y'know?

Grand Lodge

No idea. But in Castles of the Inner Sea appears a Hellknight's fortress (Castle Everstand). Perhaps you can find some inspiration there. Of course it's in Varisia, not in Cheliax. Whatever...

Grand Lodge

Paizo's policy is to leave stuff like this open to individual DMs. Which is odd, I think, because we do have village, town & city populations even broken into Race percentages. But what can you do?

Grand Lodge

In old Iron Crown's MERP RPG there were always tables defining the level, class and weapons of the regional military officers and soldiers. Other times, uh?

Grand Lodge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
there has yet to be an adventure where you fight the entire military might of Cheliax, y'know?

Yet. is the key to the passage above. Who knows what may be coming up in the Cheliaxian AP.


I believe Mark Moreland recently mentioned a personal interest in doing an 'Armies of Golarion' book when he appeared on the Know Direction podcast. That would be nice, but it you want it you probably have to chivvy Erik Mona to get it to happen.

Grand Lodge

I think HEllknights are more probably officers and champions. Armigers (hellknight squires) would form the mass of the legions.

Grand Lodge

Roger Corbera wrote:
I think HEllknights are more probably officers and champions. Armigers (hellknight squires) would form the mass of the legions.

No they wouldn't. they're too few and too elite to do so. The mass of the legions would pretty much be ordinary soldiers. There probably are however elite units from each Hellknight order.

Scarab Sages

If you want some sample Chelaxian military units, done out in the Mass Combat format, check out Wayfinder 11.
It doesn't give total numbers of such units though.


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Cheliax description states, that it maintains a strong standing army. It´s not unrealitic to assume, that this means, that about 1% of the population is permanently working for Cheliax martial forces (note: martial forces, not army. More on this later).

Since the books never mention the total population of a country we have to run some numbers. Most of Cheliax cities described in the ISWG have a population between 1.000 and 20.000, simelar to Germany during the 15.Century, so I assume the population is divided between city and country as it was at this time (about 12% living in cities). Germanies biggest city at this time was Cologne with 40.000 people. Since Westcrown has 114.700 inhabitants, it would be easy to assume Cheliax has three times Germanies population of this time, but since beside Egorian most Chelish cities have less than 20.000 inhabitants, so I assume Cheliax has 2.5 times the inhabitants of Germany at 1400 (which was also the time Europe started to recover from the plague). This would be 35.000.000 people.

As I said before, about 1% percent (350.000) are in martial forces, however this includes town-guards. Unless there is an extreme danger elsewhere, these guards will most likely only defend the city they are stationed at. I am going to assume, that cities have all 1% in guard duty. This would mean, that 42.000 Chelixians are town-guards.
In a worst case scenario the militia can be rallied, which is 5% of the towns population.

As for Hellknights, this is a little bit trickier. Knights were part of nobility, and the Hellknights traditions makes it a little hard to assume anything. For sanity reasons I assume all knights (Hellknights and others) are noble, and hope the numbers will add up anyway. Nobility was also about 1% of the population. However a large part of Cheliax nobility includes schemers and spellcasters. I am going to assume that a fifth of nobility pursues military carrers and knighthood in orders supporting Cheliax, and two thirds of these people joining the Hellknights. That means 7.000 commanders and Hellknights.

Now Spellcasters. Again all official ones noble, again about a fifth able to cast spells. Of this 7.000 I would say 10% joins (or at least helps reguarly) the military. 700 Wizards for Cheliax army.

Asmodeus clergy is warlike, and his priests and monks will support Cheliaxs war-machine. With monk cloister and battlefield clerics it´s safe to assume that about 5.000 men from Asmodeus church support military efforts (to few real world comparisons to be more exact).
Clerics of other gods may heal the wounded.

So Cheliax has:
308.000 common soldiers
42.000 town guards and policemen
7.000 nobles (which includes many Hellknights)
700 Wizards
5.000 Monks and Clerics of Asmodeus (plus several healers)
An unknown number of devils, summoned as needed

If you want to know the numbers of sailors in the navy, you will have to look up different material, since Germany pretty much didn´t have any warships at that time.

Note that the numbers will rise if Cheliax is preparing for war


Wayfinder 11 has a short article on this very subject (pp 36-39). It's mostly about Kingmaker-level battle forces rather than individuals.

Grand Lodge

sylvansteel wrote:

Cheliax description states, that it maintains a strong standing army. It´s not unrealitic to assume, that this means, that about 1% of the population is permanently working for Cheliax martial forces (note: martial forces, not army. More on this later).

Since the books never mention the total population of a country we have to run some numbers. Most of Cheliax cities described in the ISWG have a population between 1.000 and 20.000, simelar to Germany during the 15.Century, so I assume the population is divided between city and country as it was at this time (about 12% living in cities). Germanies biggest city at this time was Cologne with 40.000 people. Since Westcrown has 114.700 inhabitants, it would be easy to assume Cheliax has three times Germanies population of this time, but since beside Egorian most Chelish cities have less than 20.000 inhabitants, so I assume Cheliax has 2.5 times the inhabitants of Germany at 1400 (which was also the time Europe started to recover from the plague). This would be 35.000.000 people.

As I said before, about 1% percent (350.000) are in martial forces, however this includes town-guards. Unless there is an extreme danger elsewhere, these guards will most likely only defend the city they are stationed at. I am going to assume, that cities have all 1% in guard duty. This would mean, that 42.000 Chelixians are town-guards.
In a worst case scenario the militia can be rallied, which is 5% of the towns population.

As for Hellknights, this is a little bit trickier. Knights were part of nobility, and the Hellknights traditions makes it a little hard to assume anything. For sanity reasons I assume all knights (Hellknights and others) are noble, and hope the numbers will add up anyway. Nobility was also about 1% of the population. However a large part of Cheliax nobility includes schemers and spellcasters. I am going to assume that a fifth of nobility pursues military carrers and knighthood in orders supporting Cheliax, and two thirds of these people joining the...

Amazing work!


Thanks, but I may have made a few few mistakes
Yesterday I read a few desciptions of medieval battles featuring ten-thousands of knights. It might be better to say 2/5 of the nobility are pursuing knighthood (since this calculation actually includes risen peasants.)
Also the statement that Germany had no fleet to speak of at the time is wrong. While Germany itself had no fleet (and no army for that matter, the king or emperor called his nobles to bring him soldiers in times of war) at this time the Hanse was already operating. The Hanse was a trade-alliance between several cities in northern Europe, and German cities made the bulk of it´s members. The Hanse was powerfull enough to wage war on their own, and had to defend themselves against contant pirate attacks (nothern europe was the focus of piratry, before the spanish found gold in the new world).

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