|
| 60 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Creating a new character for PFS and I love the idea of the shield brawler. The Captain American fan in me, I guess.
But upon reading the shield brawler I have some question. I'm hoping there's some official clarifications that haven't made it to the FAQ.
1) Is the shield champion proficient with shields as weapons?
Normal brawlers are proficient with the close weapon group, so brawlers are proficient with shields as weapons but not as shields.
The shield champion changes proficiencies to:
A shield champion is proficient with all simple weapons. She is also proficient with light armor, and with bucklers, light shields, and heavy shields. This replaces the brawler's weapon and armor proficiencies.
It doesn't specify the shield proficiency as a weapon, so it would just be the armour proficiency. That means by RAW the brawler archetype that fights with a shield takes a non-proficiency penalty on attack rolls with shields. That doesn't seem right.
2) Are brawlers considered to have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat?
At 11th level the shield champion gains Shield Master as a bonus feat. However, they must meet the prerequisites. And one is a Two-Weapon Fighting.
However the class feature brawler's flurry says:
Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature.
A brawler would get no benefit from a Two-Weapon Fighting as any time they attack with two weapons they gain the feat. But it doesn't say they gain the feat for meeting pre-requisites and they don't have it when not attacking or just making a single attack.
3) Does the brawler get its AC bonus when using a shield as a weapon?
The ability reads:
At 4th level, when a brawler wears light or no armor, she gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and CMD. This bonus increases by 1 at 9th, 13th, and 18th levels. These bonuses to AC apply against touch attacks.
She loses these bonuses while immobilized or helpless, wearing medium or heavy armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load.
It looks that by using a shield in any way causes them to lose the bonus, even if not gaining AC from it.
4) Does a thrown throwing shield with spikes apply its spike damage?
A throwing shield says:
Neither a shield's enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply on your attack or damage rolls.
But the throw shield ability says:
The thrown shield deals the same damage as a shield bash, and any damage increases from shield spikes apply to this attack.
Which is the specific in this case?
1. It's been stated that the Shield Champion is intended to have proficiency in shields as weapons. If your GM is a b$#** about it, take the Shield Trained trait.
2. They are, when they Flurry. This is awkward but it basically means you lose Shield Slam and Shield Master when not using Brawler's Flurry (or the Throw Shield variant).
3. Seems to me you lose the AC bonus unless you were to use a shield as an improvised weapon, and then you lose all the nice shield benefits.
4. Specific trumps the general. Throwing Shield gets no Shield Spikes enhancement.
1. A reasonable DM would let you have proficiency in shields, but if you are in PFS you are out of luck without taking the trait.
3. This always felt like an oversight to me. The AC bonus should have been traded out or modified to make the archetype more cohesive.
4. I don't think you have to throw a throwing shield though. You should be able to throw any kind of small or large shield. I would recommend a quickdraw shield for switching from ranged to melee attacks as a free action.
|
|
2. They are, when they Flurry. This is awkward but it basically means you lose Shield Slam and Shield Master when not using Brawler's Flurry (or the Throw Shield variant).
Except you gain Shield Master as a bonus feat, not Shield Slam, which is a prerequisite.
So you need to get Shield Slam using a regular feat choice, but that feat also requires Two-Weapon Fighting.
Wat
You gain TWF when you flurry. That means you qualify for Shield Slam and Shield Master, but you lose their effects when you you are not flurrying, because then you lose two-weapon fighting.
Wat
You gain TWF when you flurry. That means you qualify for Shield Slam and Shield Master, but you lose their effects when you you are not flurrying, because then you lose two-weapon fighting.
If you get the actual feat, you don't have this issue.
|
|
3. This always felt like an oversight to me. The AC bonus should have been traded out or modified to make the archetype more cohesive.
Agreed. Sadly, there seems to be a lot in this archetype (and book) that seems to have been an oversight.
The absence of a detailed FAQ is also frustrating.4. I don't think you have to throw a throwing shield though. You should be able to throw any kind of small or large shield. I would recommend a quickdraw shield for switching from ranged to melee attacks as a free action.
Throwing shields double the range, from 10 feet to 20.
And a throwing shield allow you to unclasp and throw as a free action. A quickdraw shield just lets you put it on as a swift when moving.|
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Wat
You gain TWF when you flurry. That means you qualify for Shield Slam and Shield Master, but you lose their effects when you you are not flurrying, because then you lose two-weapon fighting.
That's the catch (and question), can you use a feat you only sometimes possess to qualify for other feats?
If it's okay to use TWF from flurry to qualify for a feat doesn't that also mean you can use martial flexibility to qualify for a feat?
|
|
Here
Thanks.
However, the official clarification seems kinda weak.
It's part of an update to the playtest, but an update that never made it to the final book. So it's as valid as any other playtest revision. The point could be argued that the reason they didn't add it to the actual text was because they chose not to allow the brawler to qualify...
|
1. If you are proficient with shields you are proficient with them as armor and as a weapon. The normal brawler is only proficient with them as weapons, thus why it was called out.
Source? Shields are specifically listed as Martial Weapons on the weapon tables. The only please where shield proficiency is listed on classes is in the armor section. Clerics have proficiency in Shields listed in armor, but only simple weapon proficiency. Finally, there is the Shield Proficiency feat, that makes no mention of using one as a weapon.
1. If you are proficient with shields you are proficient with them as armor and as a weapon. The normal brawler is only proficient with them as weapons, thus why it was called out.
2. Clearly the Devs must intend for the brawlers version of TWF to be a sufficient Prereq for Shield Master and Shield Slam. To think otherwise would lead to an absurd result. Basic rules of interpretations say to never adopt a position that leads to absurd results.
1. No, according to this FAQ posting. With the way Shield Champion is written, it's proficient in shields as defense. The normal brawler was only proficient in shields as weapon because of the close weapon group proficiency, which shield champion loses. The writer of the archetype, Jim Groves, has stated (link here) that he intended the shield champion to be proficient in shields in both armor and martial weapon, but acknowledges that as written it's no good for PFS.
2. The OP is right that how shield champion is written, they lose the benefits of Shield Slam and Shield Master when charging or single-attacking, however they picked it up as regular or bonus feat but still relying on Brawler's Flurry TWF for prerequisite. Only way to prevent that is to pick up TWF as a regular feat on their own. As absurd as that is, the ACG requires HEAVY errata and fixing before it's fully usable with minimal issues.
Except the shield champion changes their proficiency.
For number 4 I would agree with Driver_325yards
The basic Shield Bash damage of the shield is increased with Shield Spikes.
Even though the Throwing Shield's damage when thrown is not modified buy Shield Spikes, because it is no longer a Shield Bash, the melee Shield Bash damage is and that's what is being referenced by Throw Shield class ability. But the range increment is referenced because the Throwing Shield is still a Shield and has a range increment of 20 feet, so you use that for range increment.
Something that caught my attention though is: How does the Bashing quality work with the Throw Shield class ability?
I have figured that the "acts as a +1 weapon" doesn't work because it's not being used to Shield Bash, and the Bashing ability specifically calls out when doing a Shield Bash for that. I think that the increased size damage works because it doesn't state that it has to be used as part of Shield Bash. Just that it is considered to be a weapon of 2 size categories larger (in regards to it's damage.) But it does state at the beginning of Bashing that the shield with this ability is designed to Shield Bash....
Something that caught my attention though is: How does the Bashing quality work with the Throw Shield class ability?
This is a good question, and now that the thread's already been necromanced - you get the enhancement bonus on a +X shield either as an AC or weapon bonus, based on what you used it as, for the duration of that turn, yes?