We've been playing PACG for about 8 months now - been through RotR about half a dozen times, with 2, 4, and 6 characters, and with class deck characters.
We've also started a couple of play-throughs of S&S.
Across all of this, one thing constantly puzzles me:
What is the point of cards which let you evade monsters? (spells, items etc)
- don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to a free evade from time to time - Merisiel at the Guard-Tower, or generally any time when you have to summon a monster, but it doesn't matter whether or not you beat it.
Other than that though, the attitude seems defeatist.
Most times when I encounter a monster, and can't fight, so would want to evade, it's because I don't have the right combat spell in hand. However, if my casters take an evasion spell, that makes it even less likely that they will pick up an attack spell.
It's particularly galling in the class decks, where you have such a limited pool of spells - Zarlova can recharge Divine Attack spells, but the only spell in adventures 1-4 with those traits is Fear, which just evades.
Is there some kind of magic masterplan i'm missing? or are we just deliberately saddled with useless spells to make the game harder.
There are definitely times when you could win a combat but would rather not, IMO, such as running into a villain early. And there are monsters that have pre action checks that a character may not be able to handle so evading is the better option. Having said that, I never bother with evade spells either, except dominate.
|
Because early on, there might be monsters you can't handle without help. Because maybe your attack spell doesn't have enough umphf. Or when you're okay in combat but you come across a monster and you don't have a weapon in your hand but you do have caltrops.
A lot of the evasion items, I think, are banish. So when you go to rebuild your deck, you might not take that again.
I think evasion spells and items are nice for those early games when combat ... both weapon and spell ... aren't the best options.
Ezren with the Illusionist role can evade to the bottom of the deck. That's a useful trick, and not only against the Golems he can't play an Attack spell against. Hawkmoon focused on this ability in one of his Ezren builds.
Evading has other advantages too. The golems, as mentioned, can be avoided. Also monsters with before and after effects that would be a nightmare. Or even just shuffling the deck if you know what is on the bottom. For instance, the scenario where defeated hammerhead shark henchman go to the bottom of open locations, an evasion of something else would shuffle that deck up, increasing the odds of encountering one of the multiple henchmen in that deck soon.
If you can combine scouting with evading to get helpful shuffles, all the more beneficial. Or even just sending a combat weak character to a boon heavy location. Rather than take a risk on the encounter, evade it instead.
I too (other than the Illusionist Ezren) would generally prefer to defeat something instead of shuffling it, but that doesn't mean that sometimes evading it isn't your best option.
Evading a non-villain monster and putting it at the bottom of a deck is also equivalent to defeating it, provided you don't shuffle that deck.
Evading summoned monsters is pretty great too, like in the guard tower. We just always have our rogue go to the guard tower and evade every summoned bandit.
Makes life so much easier.
Also, you never know when you're just completely unprepared and think another party member should take over your location.
As I said in the OP, it's not that I NEVER think evading is useful - it's just that I think I'm most likely to need to evade because I used that spot an evading card, rather than a defeat the monster card.
If anything, evasion seems even less useful in S&S - all those sharks which can't be evaded.
I play Merisiel and use her evade ability early in a scenario if I have not picked up a ranged weapon. She fights with a combat of D8 (+D6 on recharge if alone). (max of 14) Not the best of odds.
But once you find you Returning Throwing Axe +1 she can fight with D12 + D8 + 1 (+D6 on recharge if alone). (max of 27) Big difference.
The OP talked about "cards that let you evade monsters", but most of you talk about Merisiel, who has an power feat that lets her evade monsters.
I think there's a difference here, evasion via ability is much better than evasion via a card, because you have to spend that card and it doesn't always come up when you need it.
I almost never bother with evasion via cards (I may put a single Web, or Cape of Escape but only because of side effects) and a card that straight up evades isn't worth it to me. But the ability is pretty good because it's reusable (and in the case of Merisiel, reusable without a cost).
- don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to a free evade from time to time - Merisiel at the Guard-Tower, or generally any time when you have to summon a monster, but it doesn't matter whether or not you beat it.
Other than that though, the attitude seems defeatist.
I wouldn't carry a card for this either, but I responded to the original quote part that said it seemed like a defeatist attitude. But I think it has it's place in making a smart move.
I think half of them have mental, making them useless against undead and a few other monsters.
I personally don't like Evasion spells either. The opportunity cost is too great if your character isn't built around it.
|
I think there's a difference here, evasion via ability is much better than evasion via a card, because you have to spend that card and it doesn't always come up when you need it.
You also have evasion via ability + card, a la Olenjack, who evades with allies. I actually think that is a benefit, since it helps him cycle through his deck.
I wonder if anyone would use an evade card if it didn't take up one of the cards in their hand? That seems to more or less be the issue here, like with armor - holding on to it until you need it.
I bet most of us would at least consider a card that worked like this:
You can display this card next to your character card.
Bury this card from your hand or while displayed by its power to evade your encounter.
---
And I can almost guarantee we would all give this one a try:
Bury this card from your hand or deck to evade your encounter.
It's unconventional, and limits design space in that you have to always be able to know that it's in your deck (so cards that bury from your deck and keep them facedown, for instance, could never be made), but I'm just brainstorming so it doesn't really matter. It seems kid of OP to me anyway, unless it's late in the adventure.
I tend to carry an evasion spell if the character I'm playing can use cards in their hand for other purposes than what is printed on the card, such as Lem's recharge power. For example, my CD Seoni has Confusion in her deck. If she runs into a monster and there is a weapon based character at her location, she can play the spell to evade and pass the monster off to someone who doesn't need to discard to fight. If she's alone, she can always choose to discard the spell to use her spontaneous attack spell.
|
Even not counting in my hand I'd never carry an evasion spell Orbis. Make it not count towards my deck size (yes I know, and agree, that is stupid) and I'll run one. Assuming, of course, only an evade spell could be used that way. Otherwise I'd take pretty much any other card to use without counting towards deck size.
There are only 3 events that would cause me to evade. As Merisiel, if I have bad odds, because it's free and has absolutely no drawback. As Ranzak, because if I can't kill it, someone else still can. If a "for your combat check" card lets me evade if I fail.
Well, and times when I don't have a choice (Plugg and Scourge).
Early in RoTR when I was playing Lem with a Valeros at the table, I enjoyed having an Invisibility in my deck for monsters I just wasn't equipped to handle. It had the side benefit of succeeding at a Stealth check, and being Lem I was never concerned about cards clogging up my hand. Eventually I found a spell I wanted more, of course.
|
|
I feel like Lem and Valeros sticking together would just be amazing. A free d4 (and eventually good pluses) to every combat for Lem, and Lem recharging any cards he doesn't need to do the same for Valeros on any kind of check? Nothing would go to waste either. Strength weapons for Valeros, Dex for Lem, all the spells get used. You won't ever be disappointed just by the type or traits of a boon.
I feel like Lem and Valeros sticking together would just be amazing. A free d4 (and eventually good pluses) to every combat for Lem, and Lem recharging any cards he doesn't need to do the same for Valeros on any kind of check? Nothing would go to waste either. Strength weapons for Valeros, Dex for Lem, all the spells get used. You won't ever be disappointed just by the type or traits of a boon.
Valemros!
Even not counting in my hand I'd never carry an evasion spell Orbis. Make it not count towards my deck size (yes I know, and agree, that is stupid) and I'll run one. Assuming, of course, only an evade spell could be used that way. Otherwise I'd take pretty much any other card to use without counting towards deck size.
There are only 3 events that would cause me to evade. As Merisiel, if I have bad odds, because it's free and has absolutely no drawback. As Ranzak, because if I can't kill it, someone else still can. If a "for your combat check" card lets me evade if I fail.
Well, and times when I don't have a choice (Plugg and Scourge).
What if it wasn't a spell? There is no card type you'd give up on any typical character that you'd be willing to add such a card for?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Let us say you come upon a monster bane card that deals one force damage before the encounter and one fire damage after the encounter.
Let us also say you only have 1 card in your character deck and no characters currently have a Cure spell handy.
Would you rather have an attack spell in your hand at that time so you can defeat her? Or would you rather have an evade spell in your hand so you can avoid her?
These types of special situations are why having an evade card in your deck is useful. Having attack spells out the hiney can be useful for defeating things, but there are times when having utility spells can be useful, too.
Let us say you come upon a monster bane card that deals one force damage before the encounter and one fire damage after the encounter.
Let us also say you only have 1 card in your character deck and no characters currently have a Cure spell handy.
Would you rather have an attack spell in your hand at that time so you can defeat her? Or would you rather have an evade spell in your hand so you can avoid her?
These types of special situations are why having an evade card in your deck is useful. Having attack spells out the hiney can be useful for defeating things, but there are times when having utility spells can be useful, too.
Well, I have this habit of always being the Devil's advocate, so I'm debating both sides.
I'll let you say that. What I'll say in return is that it was bad play/planning that got you there to begin with. It's generally avoidable to get down to that low of health and then encounter a monster that deals auto-damage. You can plan out the party to have a healer (whether through abilities or cards) if you don't already have one, take something like a Staff of Minor Healing / Surgeon yourself, play Armor (yuck [lol]), simply be more cautious, or, when it comes down to it, not explore when you're inches from death.
Personally, I need a great deal of space before I include one in my deck. I need a sufficient amount of KILL ALL THE THINGS, exploration, weakness shoring (usually anti-barrier tech, but could be something like a card to help with wisdom checks or self-healing), character specific tech (like potions for Damiel, or healing cards if I'm the healer), and THEN, if I have space, I'll look for stuff like evades. Usually this only leaves the item and armor slot. And armor is very similar to an evade card, when it comes down to it. So, the only "evade" card (technically it's not even one) I've taken with any consistency is the Medusa Mask.
EDIT: It's all about the opportunity cost. If it wasn't so high I'd be much more amenable to the idea of armor/evades etc. For instance, on a Dex-based character, I'm thrilled to take the Buckler Gun. I love that card. Or like the hypothetical cards I mentioned earlier that don't clog your hand, those are cool. Such as Sanctuary found in the emerald Codex - that's a card I LIKE to pull with the codex's triple spell power. But usually the choice is between an armor or evade card that I'll use once in a blue moon and NEED half as often, vs a card I'll use quickly every time I draw it. So I don't typically take them.
|
|
Orbis - doesn't matter the card type. If all it does is evade, I don't want it. It's getting discarded at the end of my turn and I pray to every god of Pathfinder that it gets cured last. If it does something in addition to evade, I'd consider it. Caltrops were alright in my opinion, but the banish killed them for me.
Firedale - as Orbis said, being in that situation is poor planning and you shouldn't be in that position. If I'm that close to death, we aren't risking me getting in a fight till I can get healed.
To put it plainly, I'm pretty sure I hate evades (pure evades, with no other benefits) more than Orbis dislikes armor. His opinion seems to be "Armor is nice when you need it, else it's a waste of a card spot and you rarely need it". Mine on evade is like that, minus everything before the comma.
I did like Medusa's Mask as Sajan though. There was no worry about finding the monster on later explores, and with all those blessings I just skip past the one guy I didn't want to waste cards on.
Mentioning the Medusa Mask just made me think of something... wouldn't that card be great in S&S, specifically once you get the Man's Promise? Put the villain to the side, then burn blessings from the blessing deck to empty out his location first. That way you wouldn't miss out on any loot.
I don't know that it would be THAT broken. That's really an inefficient use of the blessings deck. Cool, though.
|
|
We usually use the Man's Promise, and get at least 10 explores from the blessings deck per scenario. All depends on your strategery. Until the new scenario with 3 villains, anything that burns the blessings deck is horrible (and that scenario can go die in a gutter, slowly and painfully. It was brutal)
We usually use the Man's Promise, and get at least 10 explores from the blessings deck per scenario. All depends on your strategery. Until the new scenario with 3 villains, anything that burns the blessings deck is horrible (and that scenario can go die in a gutter, slowly and painfully. It was brutal)
Why do you explore with it, generally? To make better use of til-end-of-turn cards like Potion of Heroism and Spheres Spells?
Because, generally speaking, you're giving up an entire turn, free explore and all, just for one explore.
|
|
We don't have any Spheres in our party, and Heroism rarely benefits from using the ship power. It's when we want to burn through a location, but don't want to move everyone there to do it and risk not temp closing locations if we find the villain.
As for giving up a turn -- that blessing either gives me an explore now, or the next player one next turn, and they're going to get their extra explores from cards no matter what. It really doesn't slow anything down or cause problems with time. It isn't like we do them all at once or anything, we pace ourselves and make sure not to if we aren't in a really good position time-wise. Until Adventure 3, time was rarely a factor. However, this new one definitely looks like it'll give you a run for your money on time just between the second and third scenarios.
We usually use the Man's Promise, and get at least 10 explores from the blessings deck per scenario. All depends on your strategery. Until the new scenario with 3 villains, anything that burns the blessings deck is horrible (and that scenario can go die in a gutter, slowly and painfully. It was brutal)Why do you explore with it, generally? To make better use of til-end-of-turn cards like Potion of Heroism and Spheres Spells?
Because, generally speaking, you're giving up an entire turn, free explore and all, just for one explore.
That's what I thought at first, but I've found more uses for it. For example, if one character is more equipped for a location, they should be the one using a greater portion of the explores.
It's also great for boons that last until the end of the turn like you mentioned. Also in locations that do nasty stuff when you start your turn there (it was great in the final scenario of Part 2, for example)
Hmm, I bet if we tried we could make a one-turn-kill (OTK from other card games) - a way to beat a scenario in one turn. Of course, there would be a judicious amount of luck involved (nothing like pre-errata Resto), but I wonder if we could come up with a build that theoretically COULD do it.
Perhaps an exercise for another thread, however.
The problem will be running out of hand cards. Without Resto, this can be difficult to over come. Things to look for:
*Will need a weapon or sphere spell, etc to make combat checks
*Can't afford scouting unless you get to replace the scouting card (see Ezren)
*Need a way to change locations mid turn, ala Potion of Flying or Giant Badger (if it's even in S&S), and multiples of them
*Need to be able to deal with barriers
Also, are we specifying solo? Three locations seems almost too easy. I was thinking something you could get luckily dealt and say to your friends, "Guys... I got this." Because that would be hilarious. (Although a jerk move depending on the playgroup; I wouldn't do this in OP probably)
---
My first shot at it (solo):
RotR Lini (anyone surprised?)
-Appropriate dex feats
-One Hand Size Feat
-Appropriate d4+x feats
-At least 3 card feats, need a weapon and two items
-Cards:
--Good dex weapon, best you can get with only revealing
--Tortoise ally (Double reveals)
--Potion of Flying
--Potion of Flying
--Potion of Heroism
--Potion of Heroism
Ship: Man's Promise
Thoughts? I think the Tortoise might have a better option. But it needs to be a reveal option. And this is assuming the Tortoise does what I think I remember - that it reveals to reduce one damage like the Ring of Protection. It would stop stupid Enchanters.
I'm going Damiel, only need one Flying, and non-attack spells give d10+3 (without feats) for Arcane and Divine. Things like Call Weapon for a Fire Lance.
Why only one Potion of Flying? It goes to the bottom of Damiel's deck, doesn't it?
Vee have vays of making it come back.
Yeah, but that's just Tot Flask, or some other card in your hand, right? Which is functionally no different than just starting out with another one in your hand.
It only reduces Combat Damage.Thoughts? I think the Tortoise might have a better option. But it needs to be a reveal option. And this is assuming the Tortoise does what I think I remember - that it reveals to reduce one damage like the Ring of Protection. It would stop stupid Enchanters.
Eh. Oh well.
There's an ally that lets you put the bottom card of your deck on the top, right?
For what it's worth, it is already possible to beat one particular scenario in one turn. The Lady's Favor can actually be beaten by succeeding against Goblin Keelhauling on turn 1, as has been mentioned in these forums before.
It is the biggest in game advantage of being a subscriber!
It is the biggest in game advantage of being a subscriber!
Somehow I ended up with 4 copies of the card o_o I think 3 of them came from Gencon (a friend gave me theirs, and I was accidentally given 2 at the Paizo booth), and 1 from subscribing.
I was only going to use one, but my boyfriend snuck the other 3 in when I wasn't paying attention :P
Like Mechalibur says, sometimes explores need to happen in a certain order, and you might be stuck waiting for a few turns because you have one character who's good at closing a critical location while the others can't go.
Because of the requirement of discarding from the blessing pile, it's often hard to take advantage of because it only helps you while you're ahead on blessings versus closes. At least the Man's Promise gives you the most important part of the turn for it, and allows characters whose hands are clogged to try and burn out their hand faster.