I need some help creating a rogue for my son and I read the guide online but it seemed a bit bulky. He is just wanting to play a sneaky character that gets to poke the bad guys. He is 9 years old so nothing terribly complicated (no dipping other classes etc) please. At this point, just a straight rogue.
We have access to the Core Rulebook, APG and ACG as far as Feats/Archetypes go.
What is his stat priority? If he takes the feat that gives his DEX to Hit, does that also translate to Damage as well, or is he still using his STR bonus on damage rolls?
Is there a specific race that fits the rogue character?
His goal is to sneak around, unlock traps, and stab the baddies in the back.
Thanks for any and all pertinent suggestions.
The Weapon Finesse feat only applies your DEX modifier to your attack roll. Damage bonus is still STR based. (Which I was somewhat embarrassed in my PFS game last night when I forgot that little bit of info.)
Rogues are fun to play. Make sure he remembers to apply his flank bonus +2 when he's flanking AND he gets his sneak attack damage then too! Otherwise, at low levels, rogues don't do much damage.
Stats, focus on Dex of course, and then I like str and int for skills. But, it will also depend on what you want down the road. Example, an archer rogue might want more strength for that composite bow. My Ninja needs CHA for the Ki Pool, etc.
Stygian Slayer can do what you ask better than the default rogue. I would recommend that. Better ability to hit, more hit points, only 2 less skill points. Has all the skills you listed.
For a sneaky type, I generally want Dex, Int (for skill points), Con in that order. Going Slayer you could reduce the Con a little if you wanted a Str bonus.
Weapon Finesse only gives Dex bonus to hit, not damage. Str is added for damage. If you want to do it from range with a bow, you need a composite bow rated to his strength.
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Specifically to answer your questions.
Weapon Finesse is dex to hit for the weapons it mentions. It does not substitute dex for damage--damage is still based off of str. If you want that, then you will need to use a very small subset of weapons and also use Slashing Grace. At this point it would be easier to be a Swashbuckler and take Slashing Grace. Or wait a few levels until you have a magic weapon and take the Agile property.
Small races specifically fit "Rogues" better as it gives them a bonus to stealth, gives them a higher to hit which they desperately need, and doesn't effect their sneak attack damage dice which will be the main source of damage (if you can ever get anyone in PFS to also flank).
There usually aren't very many traps. If there are, they can be avoided. Disarming traps isn't as necessary as simply seeing them first and then avoiding them.
I also suggest Swashbuckler. They have a much more easily attainable dex to damage. Slayer can also be played like a rogue and has full BAB which the rogue is sorely lacking. An urban ranger will be exactly what he wants unless he's stuck on the idea of sneak attack dice as urban rangers still have the trapfinding abilities.
Try not to think of the class names as their definitions. A "rogue" can be played by any class and a lot of them do it better than the class that actually has that name.
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If you want a sneaky character that pokes the bad guys, I'd say make your son a swashbuckler. It's more combat capable, you don't need to worry about hard to understand conditions like flanking to be successful, and it's more forgiving to novice players.
It fits the poking aspect - but they don't get stealth as a class skill.
If you can deal with not a rogue (they're not as bad as many here claim - but they're tricky to play well and require decent system mastery) then a slayer might be just the thing.
It's better than a rogue is a stand-up fight, but it still gets stealth, good skill points, and the ability to get through locks/traps.
Unlike a rogue - it isn't as dex dependant either. I haven't looked super close at higher level slayer abilities - but something like this might work - (I dumped charisma because I'm assuming a 9 yr old doesn't want to be the 'face'.)
Race: Human or Half-orc
Class: Slayer
Str:18
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:8
At first level he'd fight with either a sword & shield or a greatsword, and then at 2nd level he could pick up two weapon fighting as his slayer talent.
He'd get a bit of sneak attack starting at 3rd level, but they're not as dependant upon it as rogues are.
I know he is not interested in the Swashbuckler, but the Slayer is a good substitute for Rogue. I will sit down with him tonight and go over the class with him and see what he thinks.
He might enjoy playing a Half Orc as well. Give it the ability to Bite as an alternate racial. Interesting....
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I know he is not interested in the Swashbuckler, but the Slayer is a good substitute for Rogue. I will sit down with him tonight and go over the class with him and see what he thinks.
He might enjoy playing a Half Orc as well. Give it the ability to Bite as an alternate racial. Interesting....
Bite is a lot of fun, especially at low levels. Though it does tend to drop off a bit as you don't generally magic it up much, it's still worth taking a nibble with it, especially when it can potentially get a couple d6s of sneak attack.
And while it rarely (I've never seen it do so) comes up in PFS, it's nice to have something to fall back on when in a situation where you don't have your gear. (Captured and now escaping/going somewhere that weapons are all peace-bonded etc)
In PFS though - darkvision is amazing. There are several sessions where Darkness is used to great effect (and the standard PFS ruling on Darkness is more powerful than RAW) and darkvision lets you ignore it entirely.
Ha! While looking over the Slayer I like the "Ranger" trained Slayer myself with Archery as his focus. Make him Human and he starts with the bonus feat and can start right off firing into melee at no penalty. Perhaps we will roll up twins! One Archery based and the other Two Weapon Fighting based. And as an archer, I will just need to be within 30 feet of my target to take advantage of Sneak Attack and Point Blank Shot bonuses.
Then, we each take alternating skills so we can cover the range of available skills at first level.
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Ha! While looking over the Slayer I like the "Ranger" trained Slayer myself with Archery as his focus. Make him Human and he starts with the bonus feat and can start right off firing into melee at no penalty. Perhaps we will roll up twins! One Archery based and the other Two Weapon Fighting based. And as an archer, I will just need to be within 30 feet of my target to take advantage of Sneak Attack and Point Blank Shot bonuses.
Then, we each take alternating skills so we can cover the range of available skills at first level.
Depending upon how much you want to power-game - here's something that I've considered if I ever play a Slayer.
1 - take the Blade of Mercy trait - lets you do non-lethal with slashing weapons at no penalty with +1 damage
2 - Get Enforcer - lets you demoralize as a free action (make opponent shaken) whenever you do non-lethal damage (and lasts longer than normal) - makes the half-orc more valuable as they get +2 intimidate
3 - At level 6, pick up Shatter Defenses - it lets makes any shaken opponent flat-footed against your attacks (which gives you sneak attack damage)
Heck - if you're going double slayer and he picked up Blade of Mercy/Enforcer, at level 6 you could both pick up Shatter Defenses as the feat doesn't specify that it has to be in melee - both of you go after whoever he demoralizes.
Of note though - the tactic may well be a bit much for a 9 yr old to keep track of. *shrug*
If he decides to go with slayer, and still wants to deal with traps then at second level get the Trapfinding talent. Or if you are allowing traits from outside books I'd suggest getting the Trap Finder trait from Mummy's Mask.
If he decides to go with slayer, and still wants to deal with traps then at second level get the Trapfinding talent. Or if you are allowing traits from outside books I'd suggest getting the Trap Finder trait from Mummy's Mask.
** spoiler omitted **
Best way to play a rogue if you dont need to be a skill monkey for the party
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I will be brutally honest.
Stick with a single weapon rogue for uour 9 year old sons first character.
The thing about the advanced players guide classes is that they are for players who have mastered the basic game mechanics. He will become overwhelmed i believe on more difficult class aspects.
Rogue is like the weakest class but can still do well in PFS play. The reason ot is weak is because of its saves, base attack bonus, and dire need of sneak attack to work gor them to be contributing to a fight. But the class can survive with the right group make up and a little moxie on his part.
There are 2 ways to build a single weapon rogue.
Dex based or brute rogue.
Brute rogues are pretty rare at PFS tables. A brute rogue swings a 2 handed weapon s imiliar to a fighter.
Dex rogues use a rapier or 1 handed weapon and uses dex for both attack and damage. Getting dex to damage takes either a feat or agile weapon enhancement.
With a 20 point buy I recommend these point buys: (without racials)
Dex rogue- str 10, dex 17, con 14, int 10, wis 12, cha 10
Brute rogue- str 17, dex 12, con 13, int 10, wis 12, cha 10
Dont give him negatives...that is more for experienced players.
Best combo you could pair with him would be a flanking buddy. Since your more experienced I recommend what ever...but a arcane bloodrager would be brutal to pair with him.
Talked with my son a bit tonight and he wants to play a small, sneaky character who throws daggers/axes at range, and stabs things up close. Im guessing a buncha daggers and a rapier.
Im thinking Wayang as the race, since it does not have the STR penalty on a small race.
Rogue? Slayer? Maybe Ranger?
<chuckles>
He went slightly off the board with a Nagaji Stygian Slayer.
STR 16
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 10
Light Armor and Most likely a 2 Handed Weapon.
As far as Feats go, what should he be focusing on for sneaky goodness. Is there a specific set I should be looking for?
Please remember that he is not trying to create a perfectly optimized character, he is simply rolling a character that he will have fun with.