Greatsword is slightly better with 2d6 damage over 1d12, crits notwithstanding. The difference won't come up that much so feel free to pick the Greataxe if you want.
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Between the two, Greatsword. 19-20 crit range while mechanically the same as a x3 modifier, will allow you to crit more often if you have feats or abilites that proc on critting.
Greatsword also has a higher average damage (7 vs 6.5) and is more reliable dpr because of a bell curve of 2d6 vs the more random output of 1d12.
The better option is a nodachi, or a polearm.
There's a 1 point difference in average damage between the Greatsword and Greataxe. The difference in Critical's is a 10% chance to do 4d6 (14 point average) v. a 5% chance to do 3d12 (19 point average).
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Between the two, Greatsword. 19-20 crit range while mechanically the same as a x3 modifier, will allow you to crit more often if you have feats or abilites that proc on critting.
Greatsword also has a higher average damage (7 vs 6.5) and is more reliable dpr because of a bell curve of 2d6 vs the more random output of 1d12.
The better option is a nodachi, or a polearm.
i have been using a glaive-guisarme on my oracle, who has not been built with one ounce of combat ability in mind, since level one and i apparently hit like a truck according to the DM, so polearms are indeed nice
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Greataxes.
Because lumber jackses.
if you have crit specific feats like Stunning Critical, the increased crit chance for Greatsword is better. Otherwise the difference is negligible. I like the Greataxe b/c I feel like my d12s are lonely.
Roughly 10% chance to do double damage versus 5% chance to do triple damage.
So:
2x*(.10)=.20x
3x*(.05)=.15x
Consider that the reality is complicated though. There are factors such as 20 always hits, so it's possible for the greatsword to roll 19 but still not even hit. Also, if overcoming DR or hardness, then the bigger single swing of x3 can be the winner. The numbers are still very close, but by a very small margin 19-20/x2 is slightly better than x3.
Just for fun, falcata vs Rhoka:
3x*(.10)=.30x
2x*(.15)=.30x
Like Brad says, if you're a half-orc without martial proficiency, greataxe. But otherwise greatsword.
The sword is more reliable, does marginally more damage, is better for crit-fishers and is less prone to random overkill or disappointment, so is definitely a better weapon for combat. OTOH, it's not a tool; don't try to bash your way through a door or chop down a tree with a sword.
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if you have crit specific feats like Stunning Critical, the increased crit chance for Greatsword is better. Otherwise the difference is negligible. I like the Greataxe b/c I feel like my d12s are lonely.
That was one of the silly little things that I liked about 4e. There was actually a reason to use the d12 Greataxe vs the 2d6 Maul.
In Pathfinder though - you're just being dumb by reducing your average damage by 0.5, increasing your overkill on the x3 crit, and making your weapon easy to sunder.
If you really want that x3 crit, just use an Earthbreaker. It's the same damage, and while you have the overkill issue, it's actually harder to sunder than a greatsword. (It also changes the damage type, but while piercing is inferior, bludgening & slashing are a wash.)
The only math reason to use a Greataxe is if you have proficiency from being a half-orc and aren't proficient with the other two. (Beats using a simple weapon.)
My understanding is that—feat and build specifics aside—the two weapons post similar numbers over an extended time frame. The greataxe just does it in a much more "swingy" way.
But, ya know, i'm not a statistician. Or even particularly smart.
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OP
is your character a dwarf y/n
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My understanding is that—feat and build specifics aside—the two weapons post similar numbers over an extended time frame. The greataxe just does it in a much more "swingy" way.
Nope - the greataxe will average 6.5 damage. The greatsword will average 7. (It's because the greataxe does 1-12 damage and the greatsword does 2-12 damage.)
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I would say those are similar numbers.
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So not much difference.....
Most of the time... no. But just remember every time that you roll a 1 on you die that with a greatsword/earthbreaker you'd have averaged 7. Not to mention that the greataxe is far easier to sunder. (only hardness 5)
Plus - unless someone in the party has butterfly sting or something, 19-20 is superior to x3 crit because with x3 crit you'll usually be doing overkill.
Not to mention that the greataxe is far easier to sunder. (only hardness 5)
Now I'm starting to wonder how much a PC usually faces sundering, becuase you've brought this up a lot and I've only faced it twice. Granted I'm still new to this, but still.
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Not to mention that the greataxe is far easier to sunder. (only hardness 5)Now I'm starting to wonder how much a PC usually faces sundering, becuase you've brought this up a lot and I've only faced it twice. Granted I'm still new to this, but still.
It varies. As you level sunder can be a great tacitc, especially against low hardness weapons such as greataxes/bows as even though they probably have back-up weapons, they doubtlessly aren't magiced up much if at all.
A lot of GMs will avoid using sunder because they don't want to break their players' toys. It really isn't that big a deal though once the combat is over, as a single casting of Make Whole (if the caster is high enough level) and spamming Mending will fix them without any problems.
So... it depends.
On the chance of a crit, I like having the x3 from the axe. Axe is also cheaper, so It's good for arming angry mobs or whatever.
As mentioned above, crit is the meaningful separator here, though it's still a minor difference. Sadly, on the average 19-20/x2 is the same as x4. Not x3. That's just on the average case and there are exceptions but bigger crits are worse than wider crits on the average.
4x*.05=.2x
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Time to make a new Great Axesword!
As mentioned above, crit is the meaningful separator here, though it's still a minor difference. Sadly, on the average 19-20/x2 is the same as x4. Not x3. That's just on the average case and there are exceptions but bigger crits are worse than wider crits on the average.
4x*.05=.2x
Uh, no. They're equal in that they both increase your damage by 10%, excepting edge cases like needing a 20 to hit. x4 is equal to 18-20/x2, for a 15% increase.
As mentioned above, crit is the meaningful separator here, though it's still a minor difference. Sadly, on the average 19-20/x2 is the same as x4. Not x3.
Totally incorrect. You're forgetting that the greataxe still hits on a 19, just not for massive damage. If you assume you hit on a 15 or better (the other cases are similar), you get the following effects:
Greataxe: 1x on 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 3x on a 20, for a total expected damage of 8x divided across twenty numbers.
Greatsword: 1x on 15, 16, 17, 18, 2x on 19 or 20, for a total expected damage fo 8x across the same numbers.
Viking Irishman's guide came to the same conclusion, by the way. 20/x3 and 19-20/x2 are identical.
The easiest way to think about it, in my opinion, is to use a roulette wheel analogy. If you hit on an X, put a chip on every number from X on up (e.g., 15, 16, and so forth). If you do a x2 critical on a given number, put an extra chip on the number(s) where you crit. If you do a x3 critical, put two extra chips on those numbers, and three extra chips on a x4, and so forth.
Then count how many chips you have. A 20/x4 gives you three bonus chips, equivalent to an 18-20/x2. A 19-20/x3 actually gives you four bonus chips, and is a better weapon. Et cetera.
Over the long run, the difference in average damage is negligible (approximately 0.5 points, spot checked at level 1, 6, and 12).
It really comes down to whether you like to do more impressive-sounding damage when you crit. And flavor.
I had mathed it out on a spreadsheet not long ago. Between the two, the greatsword had a better expected damage (average damage x hit % for every AC requiring a 2-20 on the die), even factoring in crits, except for when both were keen, then the greataxe had better expected damage.
So if you expect to go keen or improved crit, go greataxe.
I wish to point out if the dm allows your witch to have the broken slumber hex, you want to use the great axe to cdg and not the greatsword. You may even want to use a x4 scythe.
Why I disallow the slumber hex. Starting your turn next to an axe should not be a save or die event.
Certain class mechanics may also favor one weapon over the other. For example, a 19th level fighter with the "two-handed fighter" archetype can automatically trigger a critical threat as a standard action, making the greataxe more desirable than a greatsword (though, in this case, a warpick or scythe would be even more desirable than a greataxe).
In term of power, the great sword will do better late game (and will be weaker than the Nodashi). It always bugged me that a nodashi wielding barbarian will be weaker than the classic great axe barbarian... So I did a houserule were keen and improved critical stack, but add +1 to the range instead of doubing it (so you can have a 18-20/x3 great axe beside a 16-20/x2 scimitar, wich is a little bit better imo.
I think the math people are looking for is:
x2 modifier = 100% more damage
x3 modifier = 200% more damage
19-20 x2 = 10% x 100% more = 10%
20 x3 = 5% x 200% more = 10%
Also,
20 x4 = 5% x 300% = 15%
18-20 x2 = 15% x 100% = 15%
19-20 x3 = 10X x 200% = 20%
It slants slightly towards the x3 if you're making attacks that won't even hit on the really high end of the spectrum, which is negligible. Coup de Grace is way, way more lethal with the Greataxe too. People talk about averaged-out damage being more ideal; perhaps, though there are certainly potential situations where a x3 critical would have finished a foe that a x2 critical didn't. For some reason people seem to discount that outliers can be enough-to-kill as well as overkill. Every swing of a scythe says "do you feel lucky, punk?".
Remember that each +1 of enhancement bonuses adds 2 to the weapon's hardness and 10 to its HP.
Sneak attack with the greataxe my all time favorite.....since first edition!
So if you expect to go keen or improved crit, go greataxe.Sorry - but you are wrong. No spreadsheet is needed. The greatsword simply does more damage.
Well, I was doing the sheet with a particular character's stats in mind, so it's possible that the Strength bonus (being tripled on a crit) was what tipped it over, but the expected damage was definitely higher. It's possible that without any Strength bonus at all, the greatsword retains its superiority even with an improved crit range. I'll recreate the spreadsheet and see.
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Well, I was doing the sheet with a particular character's stats in mind, so it's possible that the Strength bonus (being tripled on a crit) was what tipped it over, but the expected damage was definitely higher. It's possible that without any Strength bonus at all, the greatsword retains its superiority even with an improved crit range. I'll recreate the spreadsheet and see.So if you expect to go keen or improved crit, go greataxe.Sorry - but you are wrong. No spreadsheet is needed. The greatsword simply does more damage.
It doesn't matter. The greatsword ALWAYS averaged 0.5 points more damage. Sure - all of the damage will be tripled on a greataxe, a greatsword will be doubled twice as often.
The ONLY two times the greataxe would have any sort of advantage are
1. When you don't have to roll for a crit - such as when an ally has Butterfly Sting.
2. When the greatsword's crit range is larger than their to-hit range. Such as with keen or improved crit, it's crit range is 17-20, but you need to roll a 19 to hit the target in the first place. In that particular instance, the greataxe would be better.
And in both of those cases, the earthbreaker would be better than a greataxe.
I can only assume that you misunderstand improved crit/keen & think that they add only 1 point to the crit range. They don't. They double the range.
The only thing that tips the maths in favour of the axe is the edge case of needing a 20 to hit*, in which case it's marginally better. In all other cases it's marginally worse. Unless you get a special ability like forcing a crit threat.
*19-20 if keen
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Well, I was doing the sheet with a particular character's stats in mind, so it's possible that the Strength bonus (being tripled on a crit) was what tipped it over, but the expected damage was definitely higher. It's possible that without any Strength bonus at all, the greatsword retains its superiority even with an improved crit range. I'll recreate the spreadsheet and see.So if you expect to go keen or improved crit, go greataxe.Sorry - but you are wrong. No spreadsheet is needed. The greatsword simply does more damage.It doesn't matter. The greatsword ALWAYS averaged 0.5 points more damage. Sure - all of the damage will be tripled on a greataxe, a greatsword will be doubled twice as often.
STAND BACK! SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET!
.... and it's me.
Yeah, I just rebuilt the same chart, and found that the greatsword does in fact edge out the greataxe at all points where the modifiers are even. So that raises the question, what the hell did I miss on that other spreadsheet?
I can only assume that you misunderstand improved crit/keen & think that they add only 1 point to the crit range. They don't. They double the range.
No, you can also assume that I entered a formula wrong. I have to re-examine that spreadsheet when I get back to work, and it's off the network, so I can't pull it up here.
So, moral of the story: don't listen to me.
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So, moral of the story: don't listen to me.
For what it's worth, your willingness to reconsider your chart and freely admit your mistake makes me much more likely to listen to you in the future.
This forum could use more posters like you. :)
I think the spreadsheet ignores you get automatic critical on a cdg and an automatic 3x is better than an automatic 2x.
Sleep hex, sleep spell, and hold person are out there.
I think the spreadsheet ignores you get automatic critical on a cdg and an automatic 3x is better than an automatic 2x.
Sleep hex, sleep spell, and hold person are out there.
Yes, it does.