Hey everyone, thanks in advance for your help here!
We will be playing wotw ap as indicated in the subject line. We will have a party of five players, but the GM is asking us to keep our character choices secret from one another, so I can't answer the inevitable questions concerning the other characters in the group.
I do know my base stats (to be assigned as I choose): 18, 16, 16, 12,11 and 8.
While I had been heavily leaning towards playing a zen archer monk tengu, I have also been considering a slayer or an alchemist. Obviously, there are some great choices for evil characters that would otherwise not be readily available for a predominantly good group.
It would be great to tap into the collective wisdom on these boards to hear suggestions for character class choices, race and builds through any level you may see fit (the deeper the better since we will get to a pretty high level eventually). We will get one campaign trait from the AP and likely a second trait, but that is yet to be determined.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Kinda difficult to provide advice without knowing what type of character you want or what role you're trying to fill. With those stats you could play pretty much any viable concept other than a melee Monk.
Likely looking towards being a damage dealer. I have a strong suspicion one player will go Cleric and another will go with either a Wizard or Sorcerer.
Personally given that the game is set in an alternate Britain and specifically calls out Oriental classes as not fitting in I would not play a Tengu it seems silly to me you would be the only one on the island which may also cause problems by making you easy to identify, I would use that and it would give you a lot of problems. But I am old fashioned and if it fits your group go with it.
Class any class can work, with those stats, as you say you don't know what the others are playing you can't fit around them. I recommend looking at the campaign traits seeing which crime inspires you designing a character idea which committed that crime and seeing which class fits the concept.
It is a good chance to play a Necromancer/Assassin/devil summoner which would not fit into a normal good aligned character
@Axelthegreat: yes, pretty sure one guy will play a Cleric. I do know this group very well-- all are long-time gamers who are very good players. None play the "min-max" style per se, although most do a good job of building characters. Basically, my question is what I should play in the abstract, knowing little about who will play what, though I suspect the Cleric and an arcane caster would be in the mix. Essentially the question is:What would you play if you were in my shoes?
Don't play a Necromancer. The AP goes out of its way to f&~+ you over, despite you thinking "Hey, this is the one game I can get away with it in!".
Circumstances seem to conspire to "Wipe the slate clean" of any undead minions you have at the end of every book.
I'm on the verge of playing a Dhampir antipaladin myself, that would give you plenty of self healing as well as all the good fun of dealing massive damage to good creatures.
Otherwise, 6 out of 10 classes in ACG have access to cure light wounds (one way or the other), 4 out of 6 in the APG and 5 out of 11 CRB classes, playing any one of those classes will let you use cure light wounds wands, if you just buy enough damn wands then healing shouldnt be an issue.
Also, if you go full arcane caster, there is an incredibly OP spell in Gods & Magic that turns a little of the damage from a spell you cast into healing for yourself. That is a perfect excuse for you to say "YOUR PAIN SUSTAINS ME!" as you fireball every hapless village you come across.
An alchemist would be a good safe choice. I don't know your group, but if your cleric tried to hold off on healing everyone, due to it being an evil game, some healing in reserve would be nice to have. And firebombing everything in sight is always fun.
Don't play a Necromancer. The AP goes out of its way to f$&! you over, despite you thinking "Hey, this is the one game I can get away with it in!".
Circumstances seem to conspire to "Wipe the slate clean" of any undead minions you have at the end of every book.
Question about this.
We have one player who's planning on using necromancy to have just one undead minion that he treats more like an animal companion. Would that be problematic?
From what I understand he wants to use humanoid undead like Skeletons, ghouls, wights, ect.
Evil Oracles/Shamans of Life can ONLY channel positive healing energy.
Personally given that the game is set in an alternate Britain and specifically calls out Oriental classes as not fitting in I would not play a Tengu it seems silly to me you would be the only one on the island which may also cause problems by making you easy to identify, I would use that and it would give you a lot of problems. But I am old fashioned and if it fits your group go with it.
Class any class can work, with those stats, as you say you don't know what the others are playing you can't fit around them. I recommend looking at the campaign traits seeing which crime inspires you designing a character idea which committed that crime and seeing which class fits the concept.
It is a good chance to play a Necromancer/Assassin/devil summoner which would not fit into a normal good aligned character
Are tengu that rare though?
Ignoring the fact that 'animal people' are everywhere, and crows are similarly everywhere (we aren't talking about lion men here), tengu have a relatively large presence in the 'pirat-y' areas of the setting (so they are not just an 'foreign' thing as you judge the monk), and they are noted as being adaptive survivalists that can easily adopt the culture of wherever they happen to be (heck, they even have a racial trait focused on learning languages, which seems to add to that).
So even if there is not a native population of tengu (and honestly, part of me wants to imagine that there is in fact clans that stick the the back alleys and ghettos), the character would not have any more trouble than say...a half orc.
Personally given that the game is set in an alternate Britain and specifically calls out Oriental classes as not fitting in I would not play a Tengu it seems silly to me you would be the only one on the island which may also cause problems by making you easy to identify, I would use that and it would give you a lot of problems. But I am old fashioned and if it fits your group go with it.Are tengu that rare though?
Well, that's up to the Game Master, of course, but the designer of that particular adventure series created a very humanocentric world and populated it accordingly. As he expressed it, "extremely unusual or monstrous races are likely to be troublesome. [...] It will be more difficult to infiltrate anything if you are travelling with a a minotaur, goblin, or serpent man for example. Tread carefully with these choices."
Ignoring the fact that 'animal people' are everywhere, and crows are similarly everywhere (we aren't talking about lion men here), tengu have a relatively large presence in the 'pirat-y' areas of the setting,
I'm not sure where you got this; the word 'tengu' does not, in fact, appear anywhere in the text of the Way of the Wicked that I can find. Nor, for that matter, is there a single "civilized" anthropomorphic animal as a character that I can find easily.
The Way of the Wicked is specifically not set in Golarion, as it's a third-party product. Many of the things true of Golarion and Paizo's products are not true for this particular adventure collection unless the GM rewrites the material to make them so.
It would be great to tap into the collective wisdom on these boards to hear suggestions for character class choices, race and builds through any level you may see fit (the deeper the better since we will get to a pretty high level eventually). We will get one campaign trait from the AP and likely a second trait, but that is yet to be determined.
A witch is a great and thematic choice that will generally fit in well with almost any party, and can be very useful. Of course, it's a squishy caster, so if you're looking for massive damage, anti-paladin may be something you'd rather do -- and this game is rather made for anti-paladins.
The DM did express some concern re: the Tengu but then gave it the all clear. He is not the sort of DM to screw me over after clearing that as a viable choice.
I have also considered vivisectionist alchemist, possibly blended with Beastmorph or chirurgeon. Of course, in this event I would swap out sword trained for claws, unless it is just better to wait for feral mutagen.
Well, that's up to the Game Master, of course, but the designer of that particular adventure series created a very humanocentric world and populated it accordingly. As he expressed it, "extremely unusual or monstrous races are likely to be troublesome. [...] It will be more difficult to infiltrate anything if you are travelling with a a minotaur, goblin, or serpent man for example. Tread carefully with these choices."
Ah, but while goblins would not be appropriate for the county in the setting, it can hardly be said that they are rare or uncommon in the world. It is just that the 'LG' nation has taken care of its 'undesirables'. I will acknowledge that Tengu might be troublesome in this adventure though, due to the notorious reputation of theft and trickery associated with them, which would lead to prejudice in such a humongous culture (plus, he has a face that is fairly recognizable...although I want to see a master of disguise tengu just slipping into noble parties and wooing the ladies without people realizing he is a bird person, which is oddly doable with the minor race penalty)
And I understand this is a 3rd party product, and that it may well not have anything to due with the game setting...it is still a compatible product, and Pathfinder is a game that is rather closely tied to its setting with a lot of its options (such as anything that had to be renamed on d20pfsrd), so the question of 'does it count?' can get muddied sometimes.
But with the general set up and background of the race, if the GM acknowledges that they exist, then to they should have at least have at least some decent geographical spread to them, both due to their noted racial character and some of their racial abilities. Sure, GM can decide to change those same details, or provide some extenuating excuse why they don't spread, but that is between the GM and players.
It's really hard to go into cities with zombies and skeletons.Don't play a Necromancer. The AP goes out of its way to f$&! you over, despite you thinking "Hey, this is the one game I can get away with it in!".
Circumstances seem to conspire to "Wipe the slate clean" of any undead minions you have at the end of every book.
Question about this.
We have one player who's planning on using necromancy to have just one undead minion that he treats more like an animal companion. Would that be problematic?
From what I understand he wants to use humanoid undead like Skeletons, ghouls, wights, ect.
Umm yes it is... I don't see how this is a problem for
1. Creative Players2. Anything not in a city
Unless you're saying the organization we work for doesn't allow Undead?
Once again, a smart player will have his undead minion
1. Waiting outside town.
2. Portable in some way, such as inside a bag of holding.
3. An undead that can be passed as human and disguised.
4. Find a way to summon his undead minion to his side when necessary.
5. Will Animate Dead during combat since it's a standard action.
6. Whatever else a player will think of. I've never played a Necromancer, but someone who has probably has their own methods.
It sounds like this campaign just has the usual and expected problems of being a Necromancer, with the exception of the most important problem. The reason people don't play Necromancers is because the other player characters usually wont allow it, not because of townspeople and Paladins.
Once again I will be playing in this soon and would not appreciate any real spoilers.
I don't agree with the guy who was complaining about undead minions. In the first module you're too low level to have them until near the end. In the second module, heck yeah, you can have all the dang undead minions you want. In the third they work out pretty well too, although you do have to keep in mind that you're facing a lot of fire-themed good-aligned creatures. In the fourth and fifth they're both completely fine, and if you survive to the sixth module you can do pretty much whatever you please.
Doug M.
Within the book? They're fine.
But at the end of Book 2, the Horn just f%!$ing collapses with little warning, and there's not time to move all your minions out.
And at the end of Book 3, you can't escape over the mountains with your armies of skeletons and whatnot either.
Of course my Necromancer got Destruction'd at the end of book 3 anyway, and I came back with an Inquisitor and I'm much happier now.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, that's up to the Game Master, of course, but the designer of that particular adventure series created a very humanocentric world and populated it accordingly. As he expressed it, "extremely unusual or monstrous races are likely to be troublesome. [...] It will be more difficult to infiltrate anything if you are travelling with a a minotaur, goblin, or serpent man for example. Tread carefully with these choices."Ah, but while goblins would not be appropriate for the county in the setting, it can hardly be said that they are rare or uncommon in the world.
Huh? Sure it can. "Goblins are rare or uncommon in the world of Way of the Wicked." I just said it. It also happens to be true, as far as I can tell -- while there are some monstrous races that are rather common (and appear as recurring enemies of civilization), goblins don't get more than a passing mention.
Do not assume that Way of the Wicked is set in Golarion, or even that all Paizo products are set in Golarion. Paizo itself makes a very strong distinction between the Golarion setting and the Pathfinder ruleset. So the statement "Pathfinder is a game that is rather closely tied to its setting" does not ring true for me.
A Zen Archer, which you mentioned, is welcome in just about group not crowded with archers. It's adaptable and not feat deprived with the built-in class abilities, tough as nails (glass cannon indeed), can be a good scout, and has lotsa skills.
Given the hints you dropped about the evil aspect of this a.p., Vivisectionist has great role play possibilities and is solid mechanically.
Personally, the idea of an evil Bard is irresistible. With those stats, the world's your oyster. enjoy.
So Rynjin, would you say that a player who uses 1-2 higher hit die undead as companions has the same problems? It seems the Necromancer in my group is going to be a Wizard and the Cleric will be assisting with Desecrates when necessary.
His plan is to have pet Fast Zombies/Bloody Skeletons that he keeps around for fighting things.
I disagree with Rynjin's assessment slightly.. while obviously within the boundaries of the adventures you probably aren't going to save like 400 minions.
But, if you have 1-2 "super minions" that should be no problem.
By limiting yourself, as well... I can't see any GM who would screw you over and arbitrarily kill all your minions. Unless, he's looking for you to go nuts and make some new ones ( in a most foul way )
Well, that's up to the Game Master, of course, but the designer of that particular adventure series created a very humanocentric world and populated it accordingly. As he expressed it, "extremely unusual or monstrous races are likely to be troublesome. [...] It will be more difficult to infiltrate anything if you are travelling with a a minotaur, goblin, or serpent man for example. Tread carefully with these choices."Ah, but while goblins would not be appropriate for the county in the setting, it can hardly be said that they are rare or uncommon in the world.Huh? Sure it can. "Goblins are rare or uncommon in the world of Way of the Wicked." I just said it. It also happens to be true, as far as I can tell -- while there are some monstrous races that are rather common (and appear as recurring enemies of civilization), goblins don't get more than a passing mention.
Do not assume that Way of the Wicked is set in Golarion, or even that all Paizo products are set in Golarion. Paizo itself makes a very strong distinction between the Golarion setting and the Pathfinder ruleset. So the statement "Pathfinder is a game that is rather closely tied to its setting" does not ring true for me.
You never said that quote, that goblins are apparently rare in the WORLD, rather in the campaign's main country with its highly developed system of military and bureaucratic might (presumably- I don't know jack really). I just presumed that they were a plague in 'other places' based off of your statements so far and a vague memory of glancing over the player docs...like a year ago.
So alright, I am unfamiliar with this campaign, and I am allowing my knowledge of Golarion to bleed out too much. That still doesn't mean that there isn't room for creatures like tengu to exist (either that, or I am rooting for team evil since it is a bigger supporter of diversity. I'm sure hell could find a place for goblin orphanages, if only to use them as sweat shops).
Paladin! Of a God other than the only God allowed to be worshiped in Talingarde. (Note that this would make you just as much a criminal as a worshiper of Cthulhu.)
Any acceptable class is going to work, play whatever you want.
@Rynjin, the events that you mention affect everyone, not just necromancers. (And the AP specifically acknowledges this.)
But not everyone invests a significant amount of character focus and resources into persistent minions that don't persist The slate gets "wiped clean" for everyone, but in a way that hits necromancers a lot harder than, say, transmuters or archers.
The Bard is a very interesting suggestion indeed given the obvious role that one would play in trying to overthrow one regime in favor of a sinister secret organization.
If I were to go this route, I would almost certainly be human or half-elf (unless someone has a better suggestion that would not stick out like a sore thumb).
And it seems that many here have indicated that either the Dervish or the Archeologist archetypes do well. Any suggestions for a really good bard build for this particular AP?
|
I'd really suggest giving Douglas Muirs guide to the Diabolist a look, I think this AP would be perfect for a conniving devil summoner, you value Cha & social skills so you'll have plenty to do RP wise and in manipulating the poor good fools you encounter, whilst also having all the usual goodness a caster (whichever you prefer) brings PLUS a growing host of infernal minions that only become more powerful as you level and really fit in with the theme of the AP.
Here's a pretty good Bard archer using Arcane Duelist. Put Dexterity as high as possible. Not my build, taken from for more details:
Bard archetype is Arcane Duelist, which gives this build several feats, the ability to cast in medium armor, the ability to magically enchant her bow, and the ability to save her party from fear effects. She gives up many traditional bard abilities to get the mentioned abilities, but she keeps some important ones like Inspire Courage, Fascinate and Dirge of Doom.
[This build's] role in the party is Buffer / Range Damager / Controller / Secondary Shield / Secondary Healer / Scout / Leader.
Campaign Traits / Feat Progression: Traits) Reactionary and Exile; Human Feat) Point Blank Shot; 1) Precise Shot; 3) Rapid Shot; 5) Deadly Aim; 7) Weapon Focus (Shortbow Composite); 9) Manyshot; 11) Clustershot; 13) Whatever
Sounds like you're getting a lot of good advice for what you want to build.
If I was playing WotW, I would want an evil enchanter sorcerer to make people do whatever I wanted them to do. I think this would go over well in an evil campaign and let you not only be the "face" of the party, but allow you to do some really evil things.
I've seen builds that involved cross-blooded sorcerer using the bloodlines of fey and infernal to increase your DC's or fey and serpentine to enchant more than just humans (sounds less important in WotW).
Thanks everyone for all the great advice and my apologies for being a bit all over the place on what I want to play. Our group games once per month and plays multiple games, so whatever I end up playing will be played for a long time unless he/she gets offed (not an unlikely occurrence given that I have lost four characters so far in this GM's Shackled City AP).
After all the discussion I will probably go with a Bard given the many remarks concerning the intrigue and skills that will really help with this particular adventure path. Sorcerer would also be very effective in and out of combat from what has been said here, but I do suspect another player will be running one.
Also, thanks much for helping out while holding back on big spoilers!
I'd really suggest giving Douglas Muirs guide to the Diabolist a look, I think this AP would be perfect for a conniving devil summoner, you value Cha & social skills so you'll have plenty to do RP wise and in manipulating the poor good fools you encounter, whilst also having all the usual goodness a caster (whichever you prefer) brings PLUS a growing host of infernal minions that only become more powerful as you level and really fit in with the theme of the AP.
The only problem would be how Diabolist trivializes almost every possible encounter.
I had the chance to play a kitsune fey sorcerer, but only for book 1.
Awesome with realistic likeness!
That said, a rogue, slayer, swashbuckler could be very cool too.
And then eventually go into shadowdancer.
You can be that sinister person with a shadow companion then.
So Rynjin, would you say that a player who uses 1-2 higher hit die undead as companions has the same problems? It seems the Necromancer in my group is going to be a Wizard and the Cleric will be assisting with Desecrates when necessary.
His plan is to have pet Fast Zombies/Bloody Skeletons that he keeps around for fighting things.
I'd say they have it even worse because they'll get caught in the crossfire of repeated Holy Smites, get wrecked by Ghost Paladins, or something equally rigged to kill anything undead.
You're hard pressed to find anything that makes a worthwhile minion. There's a few things in each book that are cool, but they usually end up getting killed very quickly.
Well, yes and no.
Spoiler:The two events affect everyone who has minions, cohorts, conjured monsters, or what have you. And, after all, one of the underlying themes of that AP is that minions are meant to be sacrificed. Makes sense, right?In the case of Book Two, I don't think the necromancer has that much to complain about. Any of his creatures within commanding range have a reasonable chance to escape alongside the party. If he has skeletons or whatever spread out all over the Horn, then okay, they're likely to be lost. But honestly, if the DM has been running that module properly, they will have been lost already in one of the waves of assaults on the Horn. Not a lot of skeletons or zombies are going to be left standing after the mud elemental, the silver dragon, the frogman revolt, and all the other craziness that goes down in the last pages. The module pretty explicitly says "everything but the kitchen sink", so at the end of the day the PCs should be pretty pleased if /they/ survive, never mind their cohorts, minions, animal companions, or undead cannon fodder.
Also, at those levels (6-10) undead legions really aren't that big a deal yet. A 9th level necromancer won't have that many creatures, won't have spent that much money on them, and they're not all that powerful. Losing them is a PITA but not a serious setback. And it's not as if you're going to have any trouble finding fresh dead bodies. This is an AP where you create a lot of those.
In the case of Book Three, everyone who can't teleport or get on a flying mount is going to die, fair enough. So you have a lifeboat situation. That's actually awesome. It means your evil characters get to bicker and squabble over who gets taken along -- Alice's cohort, Bob's fiendish companion, Carol's undead minion? And then at the end you get to fly off leaving everyone else to their doom. Come on! That's totally worth losing a zombie or two.
BTW, if you are playing past Book One, ask your DM to blow $10 and pick up the bonus book that includes MinionQuest. No - GIVE your DM $10 to pick up MinionQuest. Because, trust me, you really want to play MinionQuest.
It is a big deal when you've made it your entire class focus, to the point of taking a PrC that makes you better at it.
Other minion masters don't generally have that kind of trouble, because a Conjurer or Diabolist or what have you has minions that are probably A.) Going to be intelligent enough you don't have to specifically command them to GTFO and B.) Is likely to have Teleport or Dimension Door as a spell-like.
I had undead all throughout the Horn. None of them were killed in the Boggard revolt, Silver dragon attack, Mud elemental attack (the Mud elemental actually murdered a bunch of Boggards, which helped). I lost exactly one minion: Trithraxus, the Gorgimera Fast Zombie, while fighting some sort of Good Outsider, and I was fine with that since he was helpful for a good long while and died in combat.
Why? Because I invested 5 class levels and an Oracle mystery to making my minions strong and tough enough to survive weaksauce s&&~ like a few Boggards attacking a bunch of Fast Zombie crocodiles or Fast Zombie Hydras with max HP per HD created under a shrine boosted Desecrate.
Only for the end of the book to be a literal "Rocks fall" scenario, flushing thousands of gold down the toilet.
And "finding corpses" isn't an issue, but finding POWERFUL ENOUGH corpses IS. A human Zombie/Skeleton is basically worthless. Likewise many of the angels fought in Book 3, since their main thing is their Spell-Likes and Su abilities, and their combat capabilities as Medium creatures who can no longer use weapons or fly very well was limited.
I got around that by making some Huge Necrocrafts (which served as armies for the army combat section, and were damn good at it), but they acted mostly as guards for the taken town (helpful when the Griffin army came in thinking they were tough s$*+ and got slapped out of the air), and were too large t come dungeon crawling with us.
It wasn't until the end of the book that I really found a suitable corpse (Rocs...the Giant I traded to Asmodeus for a couple of Fiendish minions), and was Destruction'd by the Planetar end boss not long after.
None of the other party members had that issue, since the party consisted of me, an Anti-Paladin, a Barbarian, and an Arcane Trickster. We each had a Cohort (non-combat useful free things given by the DM to help with Organization stuff), but since all of them were spellcasters, they were doing all right. My Cohort (a Cleric of Barbatos) grabbed everybody, cast Communal Air Walk, and then Dimension Doored them out. The other armies (Fiendish Medusa and Oni) could fly. My skeleton armies and Necrocrafts were left to rot.
I had at that point decided I wasn't going to be playing my Necromancer any more anyway, so the Destruction just helped things along. Having a class feature that is consistently and repeatedly either worthless in day to day life (Useful for guards and army combat, but that is a small portion of the game) or taken away from you is frustrating and un-fun.
that really sucks to have that happen.. but i guess you try to throw a monkey wrench at the gm...
If they are all gonna die to the mass army, or whatever.. you could command them to "walk 50 miles that way". If they stay they are destroyed... so giving them an order like that.. some "may" survive, especially if you have a kind GM, or one who realises you spent a dump truck of cash on them.
I would recommend a dhampir anti-paladin or any race + Knight of the Sepulcher (anti-paladin archetype). This allows you to be a very self-sufficient character. You can heal yourself, have some spells, and still lay down a smack down. You will be durable due to your awesome saves too.
that really sucks to have that happen.. but i guess you try to throw a monkey wrench at the gm...
What monkey wrench did I supposedly throw?
I would recommend a dhampir anti-paladin or any race + Knight of the Sepulcher (anti-paladin archetype). This allows you to be a very self-sufficient character. You can heal yourself, have some spells, and still lay down a smack down. You will be durable due to your awesome saves too.
But what about positive energy? Oh wait, anyone who uses that to attack you will do piddly damage that requires a save!