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I recently saw a really good player use a swashbuckler. He was explaining it to me and i saw something a little off. He had chosen the feat dervish dance. which works great for a dex based melee character in POV. But he also was wielding a Buckler. When I told him that the Dervish Dance is negated by shields , he replied that the buckler is not "really" a shield. Im just looking for insight in this. Is it a shield or not?
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Yes, a buckler is considered a shield. I'm not sure where he got his information that it is not. It's listed in the shield section and it applies a Shield bonus to AC. So by the rules alone, it is considered a shield.
The only work-around that I have heard for Dervish Dance is Shield spell, or depending on your GM, you can sometimes use a Ring of Force Shield. Hope that helps!
Yeah, that is what I was figuring. i just wanted another opinion before I confronted him. I didn't want to get the GM involved unless it was absolutley needed. Thanks
No problem, glad to be of assistance. If he continues to argue you can even point out to him the description if the buckler which states that it is wielded, if he's one of those rules lawyer types who tried to use wording to try and prove a point.
If he wants to use his off-hand for something, point out the Flagbearer feat, it's a very popular option for anyone that uses Dancing Dervish and meets the Cha requirements.
Yeah he kind of is. And that is all im going to say about that.
Its really a shield. Its on the shields table.
Another nice use for the off hand is the swashbucklers flare: blue handkerchief.
that was my first argument. but you just can not win some times against people.
Also, the Dervish Dance text says "carrying" a shield not "wielding" a shield: "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."
So I would say you can't even wear the buckler strapped to your arm while using Dervish Dance, even if you're not getting shield bonus to AC. So for example, casters who wear bucklers can cast with their off hand ("You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn"), but they still wouldn't be able to use Dervish Dance.
Note that Dervish Dance states "carrying a...shield in your off hand."
You don't carry a buckler in your off hand, it's strapped to your arm.
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Thats not mutually exclusive.
Really? Because I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure I'm not carrying something in my hand if it's just strapped to my arm.Note that Dervish Dance states "carrying a...shield in your off hand."
You don't carry a buckler in your off hand, it's strapped to your arm.
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Thats not mutually exclusive.
You added the word "just" there. Take that out and try again.
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If the developer wanted you to be able to use a buckler, they would have put that exception in there. This type of rules lawyering based off the simple wording is why rules bloating happens... I dislike the phrase RAW vs RAI...
And this is what i have to look forward to when I talk to him about it next time.
You added the word "just" there. Take that out and try again.Really? Because I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure I'm not carrying something in my hand if it's just strapped to my arm.Note that Dervish Dance states "carrying a...shield in your off hand."
You don't carry a buckler in your off hand, it's strapped to your arm.
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Thats not mutually exclusive.This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm.Strapped to your forearm. Not strapped to your forearm and also held in your hand.
the "strapped to your forearm" is in the fluff text. SInce when does any rule come from the fluff?
the "strapped to your forearm" is in the fluff text. SInce when does any rule come from the fluff?So you're saying that the buckler is being held in your hand, but still allows you to use your hand pretty much perfectly for whatever else you want it to?
Besides, it's part of the rules text. If you're looking at d20pfsrd it edited it.
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler’s AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s AC bonus until your next turn. You can’t make a shield bash with a buckler.
ok, that i will admit fault. I do not have my books on me to see the original format...
i submit. i have been "lawyered".
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Note that Dervish Dance states "carrying a...shield in your off hand."
You don't carry a buckler in your off hand, it's strapped to your arm.
Seems pretty clear to me that the Dervish Dance feat was meant to exclude use or wearing of shields of ANY type, including bucklers. I suppose if we take this interpretation, then hey-- so long as you're not actively using your light or heavy shield, it's just strapped to your arm-- you're not "carrying it in your hand" anymore when you let go of the grip and stop defending yourself with it. Claiming the above as a defense for "I can use a buckler with dervish dance" is too much rules lawyering for me to put up with.
On the use of the hand while wearing a buckler-- well, since the (real) buckler's handle (rigid or strap) slides over the palm and stays in place without needing to grip it (if the strap/handle is properly fit/adjusted anyway)-- yes, you can make all sorts of gestures with your hand and/or grab and do things with it... depending on what you're trying to do, the buckler might get in the way though. The buckler can also be used to deliver a pretty nasty punch (especially if you strike someone with the edge, not the flat, even more so if you've sharpened the edge; and folks were known to put spikes on bucklers and slap with them)-- too bad you can't do any kind of shield punch/bash/etc with the buckler under PF rules.
The buckler as written up in its PF description would work about as well in the real world as the starknife (the whole "strapped to the arm" but not held/controlled with your hand at all bit).... but it's a game-- who needs realism?
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In searching to see if any Designers have ever commented on this, the word "buckler" only turns up 3 results from Sean K Reynolds (none relevant), and 1 result from Jason Bulmahn (here).
Although Jason's comment isn't addressing the issue that this thread is about, I think this line is worth quoting:
To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler.
Emphasis mine.
Now let's look at Dervish Dance again:
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Notice the difference? The Swashbuckler ability specifies no shields, other than a buckler, and Dervish Dance specifies no shields (and no exceptions).
I think that's telling.
Which is, incidentally, stupid; a buckler is by definition gripped in the hand.
DnD bucklers are strapped to the arm and can be used by archers without removing them… it is not the same thing as the renaissance buckler of history.
Note that Dervish Dance states "carrying a...shield in your off hand."
You don't carry a buckler in your off hand, it's strapped to your arm.
Seems pretty clear to me that the Dervish Dance feat was meant to exclude use or wearing of shields of ANY type, including bucklers. I suppose if we take this interpretation, then hey-- so long as you're not actively using your light or heavy shield, it's just strapped to your arm-- you're not "carrying it in your hand" anymore when you let go of the grip and stop defending yourself with it. Claiming the above as a defense for "I can use a buckler with dervish dance" is too much rules lawyering for me to put up with.
On the use of the hand while wearing a buckler-- well, since the (real) buckler's handle (rigid or strap) slides over the palm and stays in place without needing to grip it (if the strap/handle is properly fit/adjusted anyway)-- yes, you can make all sorts of gestures with your hand and/or grab and do things with it... depending on what you're trying to do, the buckler might get in the way though. The buckler can also be used to deliver a pretty nasty punch (especially if you strike someone with the edge, not the flat, even more so if you've sharpened the edge; and folks were known to put spikes on bucklers and slap with them)-- too bad you can't do any kind of shield punch/bash/etc with the buckler under PF rules.
The buckler as written up in its PF description would work about as well in the real world as the starknife (the whole "strapped to the arm" but not held/controlled with your hand at all bit).... but it's a game-- who needs realism?
I would much prefer being able to shield bash with the buckler as well
Why does he even want to use dervish dance? there are other feats better suited for the swashbuckler.
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Want to be even more frustrated by this debate? According to this thread, this exact question has been answered in an FAQ. Good luck finding where, though; I sure can't.
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Tell him to take Slashing Grace, same effect, no shield restriction.
Why does he even want to use dervish dance? there are other feats better suited for the swashbuckler.
Slashing grace isn't out yet, so its currently your only way to get dex to damage at the early levels.
Why does he even want to use dervish dance? there are other feats better suited for the swashbuckler.Slashing grace isn't out yet, so its currently your only way to get dex to damage at the early levels.
You mean fencing grace?
Slashing grace is in the ACG.
Dervish dance requires you to use a scimitar, slashing grace can use any one handed slashing weapon.
slashing grace requires a feat dervish dance doesn't, dervish dance requires two ranks in dance.
Look at the cover of the ACG and then tell Wayne Reynolds. :pWhich is, incidentally, stupid; a buckler is by definition gripped in the hand.DnD bucklers are strapped to the arm and can be used by archers without removing them… it is not the same thing as the renaissance buckler of history.
This is yet another case of rules/mechanics =/= history/art.
Yes, historically bucklers were held in the hand. Yes, historically bucklers were used to punch opponents.
However in this case we're discussing written rules mechanics... which often don't reflect EITHER history or common sense. Stinks, huh?
Edit: For the record, I think the rules SHOULD have them held in the hand and SHOULD also support holding another item/weapon in that hand... probably not spell casting though. But I also recognize that that's not how the rules were written.
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Look at the cover of the ACG and then tell Wayne Reynolds. :pWhich is, incidentally, stupid; a buckler is by definition gripped in the hand.DnD bucklers are strapped to the arm and can be used by archers without removing them… it is not the same thing as the renaissance buckler of history.This is yet another case of rules/mechanics =/= history/art.
Yes, historically bucklers were held in the hand. Yes, historically bucklers were used to punch opponents.
However in this case we're discussing written rules mechanics... which often don't reflect EITHER history or common sense. Stinks, huh?
Edit: For the record, I think the rules SHOULD have them held in the hand and SHOULD also support holding another item/weapon in that hand... probably not spell casting though. But I also recognize that that's not how the rules were written.
I didn't say that wasn't how the rules are; I said the rules are stupid. There's a difference. :p
Look at the cover of the ACG and then tell Wayne Reynolds. :pWhich is, incidentally, stupid; a buckler is by definition gripped in the hand.DnD bucklers are strapped to the arm and can be used by archers without removing them… it is not the same thing as the renaissance buckler of history.
its long been discussed multiple times, art is art, and used liberally, and has nothing to do with how the rules work…
However, I like that buckler much better, and should get the ability to shield bash (punch) with it.
but if you used it that way, it wouldn't work how it is described (you can't use a bow or fight two handed with it strapped to your arm)
I didn't say that wasn't how the rules are; I said the rules are stupid. There's a difference. :pLook at the cover of the ACG and then tell Wayne Reynolds. :pWhich is, incidentally, stupid; a buckler is by definition gripped in the hand.DnD bucklers are strapped to the arm and can be used by archers without removing them… it is not the same thing as the renaissance buckler of history.This is yet another case of rules/mechanics =/= history/art.
Yes, historically bucklers were held in the hand. Yes, historically bucklers were used to punch opponents.
However in this case we're discussing written rules mechanics... which often don't reflect EITHER history or common sense. Stinks, huh?
Edit: For the record, I think the rules SHOULD have them held in the hand and SHOULD also support holding another item/weapon in that hand... probably not spell casting though. But I also recognize that that's not how the rules were written.
the strapped buckler on the arm goes ALL the way back to 1E unearthed arcana in the same book as the original AD&D barbarian, and some schmo who had no idea the term "buckler" didn't literally mean, buckled to your arm.
it's been sacred cow'd copied and pasted eva since.
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I didn't say that wasn't how the rules are; I said the rules are stupid. There's a difference. :p
And I agree. :)
why is there even an arguement about this? If you want to use a Buckler get Slashing Grace, if you dont, use Dervish Dance. there is functionally no difference between the two if you are using a Scimitar.
why is there even an arguement about this? If you want to use a Buckler get Slashing Grace, if you dont, use Dervish Dance. there is functionally no difference between the two if you are using a Scimitar.
dervish dance requires 1 feat tax and 2 ranks of a skill (dance)
slashing grace requires 2 feat tax, but allows you to choose a weapon other than the scimitar.so…there is a difference.
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And as most people in this thread have pointed out to you, your interpretation is seen as extreme rules lawyering, and against the spirit of the game. Your likelihood of not being able to use your Buckler in PFS is high, unless you can find evidence that supports your view (outside of your own argument).
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So, if we are still talking about a Swashbuckler... why would the player want to use a scimitar with Dervish Dance (I mean this doesn'd invalidate the discussion about bucklers) ?
A Swashbuckler requires the a light or one-handed piercing weapon for among others the Menacing Swordplay and Precise Strike deeds. If he has Slashing Grace, he can use a scimitar for said deeds, but then Dervish Dance only serves to allow the character to use his dex instead of str for attack rolls.