The scizore gives you -1 to attack rolls. I don't think it's such a good weapon.
Its a bladed buckler. And sounds awkward to use your wrist would have no room to move, yep sounds like a -1 to me.
Here's a list of weapons courtesy of d20pfsrd. All weapons under simple and martial are weapons they can use.
For swashbucklers, a good weapon would be one-handed with high base damage and good crit chance (18-20 or 19-20) since they get improved critical for free at 5th level and crits give panache, which you'll need because it's limited by your charisma and having zero panache will dampen your combat effectiveness quite severely.
Rapier is the choice a lot of players go for since it fulfills the requirements. However if you want to deal lots of damage in a single strike go for the heavy pick. It misses out on having high crit chance but gets x4 to crit damage which can be devastating with improved critical.
The scizore, also known as the roman scissor, isn't that great a weapon in practice as it is in theory. Sure it has higher base damage than other piercing weapons but you have to keep in mind how unwieldly it is to use. It takes a full-round action to equip, you can't carry anything with the hand wielding the scizore, and you take a -1 penalty to rolls when attacking with it. Most importantly: although it gives you a +1 shield bonus to AC when not used in combat, this bonus does not stack with the bonus granted from other shields such as bucklers.
If you're looking to put in the feats or investments, a falcata nets you a 1d8 weapon that's got a crit of 19-20/x3. It goes well with Slashing Grace and you can ignore the Exotic Weapon Proficiency if you decide to play a Tengu.
Picks are also decent if you go dwarf, seeing as their FCB is related to those weapons.
-Rapier. Optimal crit range, piercing, one-handed, however no Dex-to-damage option until Fencing Grace is released.
-Katana. Optimal crit range, higher damage than the Rapier, qualifies for Slashing Grace, but requires an Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
-Cutlass/Scimitar. Identical to the Rapier, but qualifies for Slashing Grace for Dex-to-damage.
-Spiked Gauntlet. Piercing, light, doesn't interfere with other weapons, making it a good backup choice. No Dex-to-damage here either, but as a backup weapon that's less important. For an early game option, it's cheap to get one cold iron and one alchemical silver to bypass DRs. 35 gold for the pair.
Scizore is a total trap. Stay far away from it, it'll end up doing far less damage than any of the above weapons save the Spiked Gauntlet.
Well, for the normal finesse weapons, there is an existing dex-to-damage option: an agile weapon.
The good thing about swashbucklers compared to a lot of dex classes builds is that it is fine with just 1 weapon. It doesn't need TWF to keep up. So that means agile, which is usually prohibitively expensive with TWF, is more affordable for the swashbuckler. This turns it straight into a keen vs. improved critical argument of cost of enhancements vs. cost of feats.
Anyway, as far as general damage goes, it looks like precise strike is basically the same as a full BAB (with average strength for their level) using a 2 handed weapon. Which is a good thing, since that is kind of a standard of DPR.
The point of precise strike is that you get the swashbuckler up to the same playing field as rangers, paladins, and barbarians. With their weapon training thing on top of that, and a few nice tricks like parry riposte here and there, they make a fine melee combatant.
-Rapier demands Agile for a Dex-based Swashbuckler (which is, I assume, literally all of them), meaning you have to spend gold. For a game starting at first level this is probably not desirable, but it's much more palatable in a game starting with a high enough WBL to afford it. That said, some time in the near future we'll get Fencing Grace for the true feat vs. gold debate.
Eh, I've argued that you could go for a strength based swashbuckler before. 2 of the main attractions of dex builds, AC and reflex, are not that important for swashbucklers. Relfex is their good save, and they have decent enough AC since they are highly encouraged to go sword and board (+2 buckler and +2 armor cost less than a +3 armor; nimble eventually takes care of the light armor issue). So the only edge that cuts DEX out as the superior option for me is more AoOs (which is large enough thing for swashbucklers.
And If you spent those feats on something like power attack, then you damage will be enough that you are considered 'decent' (ie- on par with inquisitors and bards before they can grab the feat). At least, if you don't dump strength. Everyone is so giddy on doing that. I personally always go with a some combo of 14/16/14/14/10/10 when I have a melee class with a need for a mental stat. The spread is not that painful, it leaves room for decent enough loads, and prevents you from being 1 turn killed by a pair of shadows.
Anyway, with those stat assumptions, you are doing only 1 point of damage less than if you used dex to damage, and that difference is covered with power attack. You will be fine up until the time that agile is affordable.
Totally agree on gauntlets though. Always good to have backup, even if it is just plain nonmasterwork junk. Grab some daggers and wristsheaths too, since hey...you might want to do some ranged damage with that nice precise strike bonus. You don't have to be a flying blade to appreciate not being next to big uglies...
I will say that wearing spiked gauntlets with your (numerous) ladyfriends (or manfriends, depending on the character) is a bit too kinky for my blood though. Although...that might be why vampires sucked my blood on a couple different occasions while I was defenseless.... And thus all ladykillers should take knowledge: religion and knowledge: planes just in case of a 'funny' GM.
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I actually don't own the advanced class guide, I just thought making a thread full of information for the swashbuckler will be helpful.
If anything, im planning on a halfling swashbuckler who uses a starknife as a backup, a shortsword for emergency stabbing and a cutlass for main. He will mostly be there to annoy the crap out of the target. Not actually murder them.
-Rapier. Optimal crit range, piercing, one-handed, however no Dex-to-damage option until Fencing Grace is released.
-Katana. Optimal crit range, higher damage than the Rapier, qualifies for Slashing Grace, but requires an Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
-Cutlass/Scimitar. Identical to the Rapier, but qualifies for Slashing Grace for Dex-to-damage.
-Spiked Gauntlet. Piercing, light, doesn't interfere with other weapons, making it a good backup choice. No Dex-to-damage here either, but as a backup weapon that's less important. For an early game option, it's cheap to get one cold iron and one alchemical silver to bypass DRs. 35 gold for the pair.
Scizore is a total trap. Stay far away from it, it'll end up doing far less damage than any of the above weapons save the Spiked Gauntlet.
Well, for the normal finesse weapons, there is an existing dex-to-damage option: an agile weapon.
The good thing about swashbucklers compared to a lot of dex classes builds is that it is fine with just 1 weapon. It doesn't need TWF to keep up. So that means agile, which is usually prohibitively expensive with TWF, is more affordable for the swashbuckler. This turns it straight into a keen vs. improved critical argument of cost of enhancements vs. cost of feats.
Anyway, as far as general damage goes, it looks like precise strike is basically the same as a full BAB (with average strength for their level) using a 2 handed weapon. Which is a good thing, since that is kind of a standard of DPR.
The point of precise strike is that you get the swashbuckler up to the same playing field as rangers, paladins, and barbarians. With their weapon training thing on top of that, and a few nice tricks like parry riposte here and there, they make a fine melee combatant.
A swash with TWF and prof in Saw-toothed sabers can get dex to damage in both hands after slashing grace.
A swash with TWF and prof in Saw-toothed sabers can get dex to damage in both hands after slashing grace.-Rapier. Optimal crit range, piercing, one-handed, however no Dex-to-damage option until Fencing Grace is released.
-Katana. Optimal crit range, higher damage than the Rapier, qualifies for Slashing Grace, but requires an Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
-Cutlass/Scimitar. Identical to the Rapier, but qualifies for Slashing Grace for Dex-to-damage.
-Spiked Gauntlet. Piercing, light, doesn't interfere with other weapons, making it a good backup choice. No Dex-to-damage here either, but as a backup weapon that's less important. For an early game option, it's cheap to get one cold iron and one alchemical silver to bypass DRs. 35 gold for the pair.
Scizore is a total trap. Stay far away from it, it'll end up doing far less damage than any of the above weapons save the Spiked Gauntlet.
Well, for the normal finesse weapons, there is an existing dex-to-damage option: an agile weapon.
The good thing about swashbucklers compared to a lot of dex classes builds is that it is fine with just 1 weapon. It doesn't need TWF to keep up. So that means agile, which is usually prohibitively expensive with TWF, is more affordable for the swashbuckler. This turns it straight into a keen vs. improved critical argument of cost of enhancements vs. cost of feats.
Anyway, as far as general damage goes, it looks like precise strike is basically the same as a full BAB (with average strength for their level) using a 2 handed weapon. Which is a good thing, since that is kind of a standard of DPR.
The point of precise strike is that you get the swashbuckler up to the same playing field as rangers, paladins, and barbarians. With their weapon training thing on top of that, and a few nice tricks like parry riposte here and there, they make a fine melee combatant.
A relatively small loophole, and one that take a rather large amount of investment in order to take advantage of (EWP, weapon focus, and slashing grace; this is not even getting into the TWF feats that are needed).
And honestly? While that set up might be nice for other classes, I think it is slightly wasted on swashbucklers. Ignoring the fact that precise strike is lost (it is meant to put one 1 handed weapon on par with a 2handed one; this is just a classical 2 handed vs TWF argument), the swashbuckler does not have too much actually going for it as far as TWF is concerned. They lack things like sneak attack or challenges, so they mostly just have to rely upon their swashbuckler's weapon training. And as such, they fall behind even a regular fighter since the fighter can at least grab dueling gloves to get a nice +2 to attack and damage on each hit.
Overall, the twin saber build is nicer for Daring Champion archetype Cavaliers, who have their fantastic damage bonus from their challenge ability. The regular swashbuckler seems like it is much more of a chassis for non-TWF sword and board, as well as throwing.
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it fits cause its much eaiser for a halfling to use a shortsword without getting laughed at than it is for them to use an oversized needle. Starknife is 100% better than a spiked gauntlet, it can be thrown. A ranged weapon that can be used at close range is one of the best things an adventurer can have.
Starknife is 100% better than a spiked gauntlet, it can be thrown. A ranged weapon that can be used at close range is one of the best things an adventurer can have.
The point that makes the spiked gauntlet so good is not that it's the best weapon. The point is that you can just wear one all the time and not worry about finding yourself unarmed and needing to draw a weapon, it's a backup.
A starknife is fine, but you still need to draw it. That said, it's not an either/or choice - you can have both. Then you aren't unarmed after you throw your starknife.
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Am I the only one who feels the archetypes for the new class guide kinda stink? They kinda just tacked a few features from the new classes into the old ones. If you wanted to make something neat, give us more prestige classes. Like a spirit summoner who summons ghosts. Or a divine version of the magus. No, I don't count ranger as that. I was thinking more along the lines of oracle casting+fighter.
I think there is an archetype for exactly what you sound like you wanna do. I forget which one though.I actually don't own the advanced class guide, I just thought making a thread full of information for the swashbuckler will be helpful.
If anything, im planning on a halfling swashbuckler who uses a starknife as a backup, a shortsword for emergency stabbing and a cutlass for main. He will mostly be there to annoy the crap out of the target. Not actually murder them.
mouser
A relatively small loophole, and one that take a rather large...A swash with TWF and prof in Saw-toothed sabers can get dex to damage in both hands after slashing grace.-Rapier. Optimal crit range, piercing, one-handed, however no Dex-to-damage option until Fencing Grace is released.
-Katana. Optimal crit range, higher damage than the Rapier, qualifies for Slashing Grace, but requires an Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
-Cutlass/Scimitar. Identical to the Rapier, but qualifies for Slashing Grace for Dex-to-damage.
-Spiked Gauntlet. Piercing, light, doesn't interfere with other weapons, making it a good backup choice. No Dex-to-damage here either, but as a backup weapon that's less important. For an early game option, it's cheap to get one cold iron and one alchemical silver to bypass DRs. 35 gold for the pair.
Scizore is a total trap. Stay far away from it, it'll end up doing far less damage than any of the above weapons save the Spiked Gauntlet.
Well, for the normal finesse weapons, there is an existing dex-to-damage option: an agile weapon.
The good thing about swashbucklers compared to a lot of dex classes builds is that it is fine with just 1 weapon. It doesn't need TWF to keep up. So that means agile, which is usually prohibitively expensive with TWF, is more affordable for the swashbuckler. This turns it straight into a keen vs. improved critical argument of cost of enhancements vs. cost of feats.
Anyway, as far as general damage goes, it looks like precise strike is basically the same as a full BAB (with average strength for their level) using a 2 handed weapon. Which is a good thing, since that is kind of a standard of DPR.
The point of precise strike is that you get the swashbuckler up to the same playing field as rangers, paladins, and barbarians. With their weapon training thing on top of that, and a few nice tricks like parry riposte here and there, they make a fine melee combatant.
I guess I could be missing something. I do agree that it is feat intensive. But a twf swash with sabres can do everything a one weapon swash can do twice with only a -2 to hit.
Well, you can't precise strike while TWFing.
I guess I could be missing something. I do agree that it is feat intensive. But a twf swash with sabres can do everything a one weapon swash can do twice with only a -2 to hit.
so…you can use precise strike when you move, and TWF when you full attack, still versatile and useful.
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Good point kes, Im a bit out of shape with pathfinder. Pretty much, aside from weekly meetings in providence, this is the only connection I have to pathfinder. I would sell my entire family to asmodeus to play through all of the modules. I wish so hard for a RI pathfinder society, but alas!
Anyways, How about a swashbuckler with a trident? Its one handed.
so…you can use precise strike when you move, and TWF when you full attack, still versatile and useful.Well, you can't precise strike while TWFing.
I guess I could be missing something. I do agree that it is feat intensive. But a twf swash with sabres can do everything a one weapon swash can do twice with only a -2 to hit.
It is hardly any more amazing than a fighter that grabbed a double weapon though (since those can be 2 handed).
My problem is that, while yes, a swashbuckler can do this. But does he have very much incentive to do so? It is not like he has sneak attack, challenges, favored enemies, or smite. Heck, even monks and brawlers (Whose flurries copy TWF) have the advantage of things like getting 2 handed power attack damage. There are not as many huge incentives to actually do TWF.
So the question is: What do you actually DO with TWF when you are a swashbuckler? At best, you have some weapon expertise and the swash buckler's weapon training. Nice, but not overly so. Especially since everyone seems so afraid to pile on other damage boosters like power attack.
EDIT: oh, kestral287- I am also in love with the warrior. Now there is a class/archetype that could take advantage of slashing grace for TWF (dex+weapon training+dueling gloves+mutagen+weapon expertise+power attack).