Just to provide some insight yes I have looked into it but I'm just wanting a more direct answer to my question.
Would Feral Combat Training effect Brawler's Flurry the same way it effects Flurry of Blows?
From what I've read (which seems to mostly be from the play test) would indicate no, it doesn't work but I'd like to have a more direct answer if that's even possible.
Thanks in advance for the help
This is the quote of a FAQ I found on d20PSFRD
Quote: What does “with” in the Special line for Feral Combat Training mean for monks making a flurry of blows?
Normally a monk who has natural attacks (such as a lizardfolk monk with claw attacks) cannot use those natural attacks as part of a flurry of blows. Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.
The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.
So you can mix your natural attacks in with your flurry, however, you can't make a full attack with your flurry and then follow it up with secondary natural attacks.
Now, a more interesting question is whether your natural weapon attacks do the same damage as your unarmed attacks. Feral Combat Training says,
Quote: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike. Your unarmed strikes are augmented by increased damage die. Therefore, I would think that your natural attacks would do the damage of your unarmed strike. Further, your natural attacks should be magical, etc... for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
But does that mean it effects Brawler's Flurry the same way though? I know it'll effect the damage the same way but would it effect how the Flurry part works since Brawler's Flurry and Flurry of Blows are different
Let's step up your question a notch. What if you made a Brawler build that took the TWF chain? Yes, it would be duplicative in a sense, but now you could attack with your unarmed strikes TWFing and follow-up with natural attacks. Further, if you had Feral Combat Training you could then apply you unarmed strike damage and brawler's strike to you natural attacks.
This is a sacrifice, but would probably be worth it for a mutagen brawler who selects feral mutagen.
That is all I have got for you.
Jonathan DesLauriers wrote: But does that mean it effects Brawler's Flurry the same way though? I know it'll effect the damage the same way but would it effect how the Flurry part works since Brawler's Flurry and Flurry of Blows are different However they are different, it is not a difference with significance with regard to your question.
Further, the language for the Brawler says "A brawler with natural weapons can't use such weapons as part of brawler's flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler's flurry attacks."
Feral Combat Training changes the first part, but does nothing to change the second part.
But as far as I know without that feat neither can a Monk use natural weapons with a flurry of blows.
But that does basically give me my answer.
I just can't swing my idea, which is okay since I knew it wouldn't work but it was worth looking into.
I could easily go Monk but it doesn't fit the idea I have.
Thanks a bunch for the input though!
Well basically the thematic idea for the character is an escaped convict whose a tielfing brawler.
My basic idea was looking for a means of using claws or a bite attack in conjunction with unarmed attacks.
I know monks could use the Feral Combat Training with the Flurry of Blows to use any natural weapons they have with it.
Which it doesn't so I'll have to re-tool the idea and make the bite attack an opening attack when I do charges and the like then just switch to punches after the fact.
Jonathan DesLauriers wrote: Well basically the thematic idea for the character is an escaped convict whose a tielfing brawler.
My basic idea was looking for a means of using claws or a bite attack in conjunction with unarmed attacks.
I know monks could use the Feral Combat Training with the Flurry of Blows to use any natural weapons they have with it.
Which it doesn't so I'll have to re-tool the idea and make the bite attack an opening attack when I do charges and the like then just switch to punches after the fact.
But you can do what you are talking about one of two ways. The first way is to just take the TWF chain. Yes, its a little redundant, but it will allow you to attack with TWF and your claws.
The second way is to use Martial Flexibility to get access to TWF. You will have to be a dexterous character to qualify for TWF, but it is possible to pull off.
okay, my question is more or less the same, but I want to ask it a different way.
Here's my years-old white-haired witch build
white-haired witch 5/sohei monk 1/eldritch knight 6
You take Feral Combat Training (hair) in order to full attack with your hair. Fine. Relatively well-understood. Here's a new concept
white-haired witch 3/brawler 2/evangelist 7
Same base attack bonus at the end, and you get one level less of spells, but the good bit is more reach and for a Strength-patron witch, divine power. Not to mention whatever boon and the evangelist goodies.
You still want Feral Combat Training (hair), but the catch is you don't have flurry of blows: you have brawler's flurry.
Very simply: does this work?
Answer seems pretty obvious.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
emphasis mine.
Brawler's Furry is an effect that augments unarmed strikes and monk weapons, just like FoB, so it looks solidly RAW.
FAQ wrote: Feral Combat Training: What does “with” in the Special line for this feat mean for monks making a flurry of blows?
Normally a monk who has natural attacks (such as a lizardfolk monk with claw attacks) cannot use those natural attacks as part of a flurry of blows (Core Rulebook 57). Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.
The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.
Brawler's Flurry works with Monk weapons. So FCT works with BF.
NikolaiJuno wrote: FAQ wrote: Feral Combat Training: What does “with” in the Special line for this feat mean for monks making a flurry of blows?
Normally a monk who has natural attacks (such as a lizardfolk monk with claw attacks) cannot use those natural attacks as part of a flurry of blows (Core Rulebook 57). Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.
The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.
Brawler's Flurry works with Monk weapons. So FCT works with BF. Yep, that's the way it reads to me. "use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon". I'd say BF is one of those special attacks.
I would say no, they do not work together.
First, feral combat training specifically addresses flurry of blows. Brawler's flurry is not flurry of blows. They're mechanically distinct abilities.
Second, brawler's flurry, unlike flurry of blows, grants you the two-weapon fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes and various weapons. Even if a natural attack were added to the list of viable weapons, gaining access to the two-weapon fighting feat through brawler's flurry would do you no more good than simply purchasing the feat normally.
That said, I like both feral combat training and brawler's flurry, I just don't think they work together.
Rhatahema wrote:
First, feral combat training specifically addresses flurry of blows. Brawler's flurry is not flurry of blows. They're mechanically distinct abilities.
The FAQ says that FCT "allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon". That means it does the exact same thing for both flurry of blows and brawlers flurry.
Monk: "Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon"
Brawler: "Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature."
Note both list monk weapons as being usable weapons. FAQ:"Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon" and "you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon". Flurry isn't the only attack to benefit from FCT but includes "special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon" and to me that sounds like brawler's flurry, a special "full-attack action" unique to brawlers.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9ozd
Rhatahema wrote: Second, brawler's flurry, unlike flurry of blows, grants you the two-weapon fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes and various weapons. Even if a natural attack were added to the list of viable weapons, gaining access to the two-weapon fighting feat through brawler's flurry would do you no more good than simply purchasing the feat normally. "A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry." and "She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability." So it's MUCH better than having to buy three extra feats you already get, using/enchanting multiple weapons and having to deal less damage with every extra attack.
Rhatahema wrote: I would say no, they do not work together.
First, feral combat training specifically addresses flurry of blows. Brawler's flurry is not flurry of blows. They're mechanically distinct abilities.
I agree that Flurry of Blows and Brawler's Flurry are distinct separate abilities. However they do both enhance unarmed strikes and monk weapons. The only reason Brawler's Flurry isn't mentioned under FCT is it didn't exist when that was written.
@Graystone: I understand your side of it. My I'm just saying flurry of blows is weird. Its mechanics are obscure and unique, and the only reason we know how it interacts with feral combat training is because the FAQ tells us exactly how. I'm just not sure what applies to flurry of blows applies to the attacks you make through brawler's flurry.
I'd boil brawler's flurry down to, "When making a full-attack with this ability, you have X feat when attacking with Y weapons, and your full-attack is modified as follows.." Even if a natural attack counted as Y, it gains no special exceptions with the granted feat, although it would be subject to the other modifications, if it could be used at all.
EDIT: Forgot to elaborate on this: two-weapon fighting reduces the penalties for fighting with two weapons. That alone doesn't let you use two-weapon fighting with your natural attacks, even if natural attacks are valid for use during a brawler's flurry.
However, the FAQ does say you can "use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon", which certainly leaves it open as a possibility. Not saying it's definitely the way I see it, just my interpretation. It's certainly a vague feat with an open-ended FAQ response. I miss the relative simplicity of 3.5 flurry. :)
@Bladelock: Yeah, that's probably true. But brawler's flurry also has it's own advantages, and thus shouldn't be assumed to have access to everything that applies to flurry of blows.
I'm not saying FCT works with Brawler's Flurry because it works with Flurry of Blows. It's RAW when you look at FCT and the description of Brawler's Flurry.
However the ruling on FoB does support that it is also RAI.
Well, I'll make one last comparison, then I'll let my argument rest. Don't want us to start running in circles. Brawler's flurry states the following:
Braweler's Flurry wrote: Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability. If you took feral combat training (bite), here's how I'm reading it:
Quote: Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature (including her bite attack). She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability. Because the TWF feat only reduces the penalties for two-weapon fighting, I don't see the logic in saying you can suddenly make iterative and off-hand attacks with your bite. Though I can see the argument that the FAQ on using FCT with FoB sets a precedent for it working that way.
I can see what you're saying Rhatahema, but the way I see it when you're using FCT and one of those special attacks using a monk weapon you are using the natural attack as a weapon instead of a natural attack. To me, that's what "allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon" means. It didn't just add 'monk' to the natural weapon but allows you to treat it as a monk weapon. So it's:
Normal attacks: treat natural weapon as natural weapon.
Flurry attack: treat natural weapon as manufactured weapon with the monk ability.
Brawlers flurry attack: treat natural weapon as manufactured weapon with the monk ability.
SO I totally agree with your quote of brawlers flurry + FCT. I'm just looking at the "monk weapon" part as changing how you use the natural weapon. You also have to remember that brawlers flurry is more than just TWF. It's a special "full-attack action" that gives you that feat plus other stuff. It also allows you to use a single weapon as if it was two weapons and deal full damage with it.
A brawler with natural weapons can't use such weapons as part of brawler's flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler's flurry attacks.
Mark Seifter wrote: Ragoz wrote:
Does Brawler's Flurry count as as Flurry of Blows for the feat Feral Combat Training? A brawler does count as a monk for feats and can use monk weapon during a flurry but doesn't have the class feature.
It doesn't include text to say it counts as flurry of blows, so it doesn't on its own. If you feel like changing it for your home game, though, no reason you couldn't.
I'd say you asked the wrong question Ragoz. He's 100% correct that flurry and brawlers flurry are two different things and don't count as each other. That isn't the same as saying that brawlers flurry doesn't benefit from FCT. On top of that, as a dev post it is inherently unofficial. The only official rules are errata/FAQ's and the books.
I'd direct you to the actual FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9ozd
If Mark reads this, I'd ask him what he thinks taking both FCT FAQ's into account. Does he think FCT allows (or should allow) the use of natural weapons in a brawlers flurry? While his reply would be unofficial, I still like to hear his thoughts.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
What does “with” in the Special line for Feral Combat Training mean for monks making a flurry of blows?
You don't meet the special requirement for this feat using Brawler's Flurry.
As Ragoz has pointed out, the FAQ entry is concerning:
Quote: Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature. In order to even qualify for that line, and the additional clarification from the FAQ, you must be a monk. So bringing up that FAQ entry in regards to brawlers is ultimately moot. If you're not a monk, completely ignore that line of the feat.
That leaves us with:
Quote: While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike. In my opinion (and expect table variation), that says you can apply "rider" effects that would go along with unarmed strikes to your selected natural weapon. This does not allow it to be used with Brawler's Fury nor does it increase the damage dice of your natural attack. In order for the effect to apply, it must be an additional effect rather than something that modifies or applies to the base nature of your natural attack.
The FAQ on using feral combat training with flurry of blows adds a lot of very specific rules text that draws very little from what's actually written. It doesn't do well at setting a precedent for how to apply the feat to other abilities because it pulls rules from thin air. I agree the logic would be consistent if the feat accomplished comparable things through brawler's flurry, but it would be expanding considerably on what the actual feat says it does.
That said, I don't think the way feral combat training functions will always be entirely clear. It's a feat that where rules confusion is inevitable. But on this particular example, so long as both sides of the argument are represented for someone looking up the answer, I'm content.
Well said.
Sometimes the rules just aren't clear, and without clarification, we just have to rely on the GM and players doing the best they can.
This feat totally _should_ apply to brawlers too, but as someone mentioned earlier, brawlers came out after it was made, so... yeah.
I agree with Rhatahema to a point. Without the FAQ clarifying things, many things would be up in the air. Heck without the FAQ's, I'd say you wouldn't be able to use monks unarmed damage...
As far as the FAQ and brawlers flurry, the FAQ goes beyond JUST "Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.". I clarifies that that means but it's not limited to flurry.
"Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks": This is flurry.
"use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon": This isn't about monks flurry. This is where brawlers flurry comes in.
Byakko: If you think the FAQ has nothing to do with Brawlers flurry, what do you think "use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon" means and refers to as it's clear that monks flurry is covered in the first part. Do you think that brawlers flurry is something other than "a special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon"? IMO the explanation that the line means that the natural weapon can be used as if it were a monk weapon reaches MUCH farther than just flurries.
I think it's pretty clear the faq is for monks using flurry of blows. There really isn't some gray area considering the name of the faq is "for monks making a flurry of blows". None of the faq applies to anything else besides a monk using flurry of blows as much as I want it to which is why I had asked Mark Seifter in the first place.
"Lazarus, come out!"
Just for clarification...
If you have three natural attacks (say from Feral Mutagen) along with Brawler's Flurry and Feral Combat Training say at level 4, how many attacks can you make as a full-round action?
2, FCT lets you use that natural weapon instead of a fist/weapon in your flurry. So instead of punch/punch you could Bite/Bite.
Chess Pwn wrote: 2, FCT lets you use that natural weapon instead of a fist/weapon in your flurry. So instead of punch/punch you could Bite/Bite. So I would be better off not using flurry and instead use the three natural attacks?
croftstr wrote: "Lazarus, come out!"
Just for clarification...
If you have three natural attacks (say from Feral Mutagen) along with Brawler's Flurry and Feral Combat Training say at level 4, how many attacks can you make as a full-round action?
Taking the FCT entry in Ultimate Combat alone, brawlers aren't included.
Taking the FCT FAQ alone, the feat really just makes the claw or whatever a monk weapon, so it does work for brawlers flurry.
Taking them together, the FAQ is merely explaining the mechanism by which the entry (which still is specific to monks) works. Arguably.
But that's silly. All those rules are pre-Brawler and pre Sacred Fist and Elemental Ascetic and such. In a home game, I say it works; under that home rule which is arguably aligned with RAI, 4 Brawler with three natural weapons could have in a full-round attack:
- 2 attacks using flurry, any of which can be the natural attack chosen by FCT.
- 3 attacks, all natural, primary or secondary as prescribed by their type
- 4 attacks, the first being a manufactured/unarmed weapon and the other three being your 3 nat attacks as secondaries
- 5 attacks, the same as above but you have to get two-weapon fighting from something other than flurry (like martial flexibility) and the off-hand is at half STR damage
Argendauss wrote: croftstr wrote: "Lazarus, come out!"
Just for clarification...
If you have three natural attacks (say from Feral Mutagen) along with Brawler's Flurry and Feral Combat Training say at level 4, how many attacks can you make as a full-round action?
Taking the FCT entry in Ultimate Combat alone, brawlers aren't included.
Taking the FCT FAQ alone, the feat really just makes the claw or whatever a monk weapon, so it does work for brawlers flurry.
Taking them together, the FAQ is merely explaining the mechanism by which the entry (which still is specific to monks) works. Arguably.
But that's silly. All those rules are pre-Brawler and pre Sacred Fist and Elemental Ascetic and such. In a home game, I say it works; under that home rule which is arguably aligned with RAI, 4 Brawler with three natural weapons could have in a full-round attack:
- 2 attacks using flurry, any of which can be the natural attack chosen by FCT.
- 3 attacks, all natural, primary or secondary as prescribed by their type
- 4 attacks, the first being a manufactured/unarmed weapon and the other three being your 3 nat attacks as secondaries
- 5 attacks, the same as above but you have to get two-weapon fighting from something other than flurry (like martial flexibility) and the off-hand is at half STR damage Oh, so the brawler's flurry would never apply to the natural attacks for something like: bite, claw/claw (from flurry), and other claw?
croftstr wrote:
Oh, so the brawler's flurry would never apply to the natural attacks for something like: bite, claw/claw (from flurry), and other claw?
If I'm understanding you right, no. Flurry specifically excludes adding natural attacks as secondaries after your iterative flurry attacks. Feral combat training does nothing to change that and never did (and was nerfed even further insofar as it was errata'd to only apply to feats and a special case of monks treating selected nat weapons as monk weapons).
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