CR vs. No Magic

[keyafay]

I am writing a Module and I want to know what I should do when there is no magic vs. the CR. No magic items, no spells, nothing. Alchemical potions will exist.

How much would that raise the CR of the encounters?

[Cheburn]

A lot. Keep in mind that even your martial characters will have minimal Wealth By Level (since most of that usually is sunk into magic items), and that their AC and hit/damage won't scale at the normal rate. Healing is going to be a major problem (since even potions are "magic liquids"). Certain enemies (especially those with spells or SLAs) will be ~undefeatable. Many conditions that can be healed with magic will be debilitating, and might just merit the retirement of a character. And death will be very, very permanent.

I'd hesitate to even call such a game "Pathfinder," as you're neutering most classes (how much the class can still function will depend on what if you consider Supernatural abilities to be "magic").

What is the rational for wanting a "no-magic" module?

[thorin001]

It really depends on the creatures involved. DR will be the big killer as without magic many DRs are impossible to negate. Regeneration becomes much more powerful as it is harder to stop. All of the character's saves will be lower, so anything that forces them to save will be more powerful.

If you use vermin, animals, constructs, unintelligent undead, and similarly equipped humanoids then very little CR adjustment is needed.

[Greylurker]

Kind of depends on if it's a two way street. If you are limiting their enemies to no magic as well it's not too bad. Game works just fine if you are keeping it to Martials vs. Martials

Consider using the Vigor/Wounds rules from Ultimate Combat and Make Vigor easy to recover just from resting. This helps mitigate the need for healing magic a bit.

Be careful about using creatures with DR. Silver or Cold Iron should be as far as you go. Just try and drop clues for the PCs before they run into the creature or make certain to drop a matching weapon early on for them

Avoid Energy Drain monsters and be really careful about stat drain monsters. I'd probably consider such things at least +2 CR

Poison is a little more dangerous than it would be normally so at least +1 CR on anything Poisonous.

What kind of setting are you using

[Gnomezrule]

I think the issue should not be formulaic CR -4 or whatever your work is harder.

1- Use monsters that do not have defenses only magic can defeat. Either to not pick them or make it so mundane items that are made of silver, cold iron or whatever material you want effect them.

2- Adjust monsters so that their magical abilities do not overwhelm the reduced magical defenses of the party.

[ShadowcatX]

The first thing I would say for such a module is why would anyone want to play it? I show up to a game and I'm told my wizard can't cast spells, I'm going home, it doesn't matter what you do to encounters at that point.

The second thing I would say is don't be lazy. There is no formula for you changing half the rules of the game. Fighting a vampire in a no wealth game is vastly different than fighting a tiger in a no wealth game, even if they are the same cr.

[LazarX]

keyafay wrote:

I am writing a Module and I want to know what I should do when there is no magic vs. the CR. No magic items, no spells, nothing. Alchemical potions will exist.

How much would that raise the CR of the encounters?

By asking this question it shows that you're not bothering to think encounter design, and you're looking for a lazy man's shortcut. Forget the CR system and start THINKING. When you throw out a basic core assumption of the game you might as well forget about trying standard evaulation.

You know how some people practise chess by playing both sides? Experiment with encounter building by doing the same thing, and then once you think you have that down, get some of your best buds to playtest it for you. If they go down in flames or take more than what they should have them adjust their characters and try again. Once they find a party that works, have them create a few varitions of that party and see how it works again, and then take your best judgement on sending this encounter on someone not forewarned about it.

Any idiot can throw some boards together and call it a house. But it takes someone with patience and practised skill to build a house that won't fall down, won't leak in the rain, and keep you warm in winter.

You don't get that kind of skill by looking for shortcuts.

[Tacticslion]

To answer your question, more information is needed about the module and the nature of lacking magic. Does everyone lack magic, or only the PCs? What falls under "magic"?

- paladin abilities?
- barbarian abilities?
- bardic performance?

And so on.

The individual CR will change drastically based on the creature, what you're doing with it, and how you define "magic".

[voideternal]

Do supernatural abilities count as 'magic' for your question?

It also depends on what you're fighting without magic. Fighting an incorporeal undead with no magic requires lots and lots of holy water, endurance, and patience. Fighting the standard goblin with no magic is easy if you're not a pure-caster.

[Tacticslion]

Holy water is only available by magic spell.

[voideternal]

Tacticslion wrote:

Holy water is only available by magic spell.

The OP says alchemical potions exist. Holy water is an alchemical weapon as per Ultimate Equipment. But if the players have no access to shops, then I agree that players will have trouble making holy water, as it requires a spell.

[Tacticslion]

Ah. Gotcha.

I was under the impression that anything the players could have access to via magic would be impossible.

I can see your take too, however.

That does raise further questions, though.

[Thomas Long 175]

Greylurker wrote:

Kind of depends on if it's a two way street. If you are limiting their enemies to no magic as well it's not too bad. Game works just fine if you are keeping it to Martials vs. Martials

I'd actually say it still doesn't work too well. While stat drains are horrific for martials, and DR will very much become a pain, I'd say you're missing the ones that will be the worst.

Any form of higher CR swarm will be nearly unstoppable. As long as they remain comprised of diminutive or such creatures its literally impossible to damage them with normal weapons. Things like alchemist fire will really only chip away at their hp bit by bit after they get enough hp.

While stat draining creatures in general will be a pain, incorporeals will be flat destruction to the party. With no magic and no magic weapons they have 0 ways to damage them, excepting of course alchemist potions (Though I'm not really seeing anything on the list short of cure spells that would damage incorporeals anyways)

In short, avoid things that are immune to non magic weapons.

Edit: Ah yes, holy water would do it. Though even then, holy water would damage very slowly in comparison to their touch attack no save strength damage most of them carry

[OilHorse]

ShadowcatX wrote:

The first thing I would say for such a module is why would anyone want to play it? I show up to a game and I'm told my wizard can't cast spells, I'm going home, it doesn't matter what you do to encounters at that point.

The second thing I would say is don't be lazy. There is no formula for you changing half the rules of the game. Fighting a vampire in a no wealth game is vastly different than fighting a tiger in a no wealth game, even if they are the same cr.

I wonder why you are showing up to a game where there is no magic with a magic using PC, as I am fairly sure that the players will be informed.

This guy is here looking for information. Why not actually help instead of going BADWRONGFUNDURRDURR.

Sheesh.

[wraithstrike]

There is no flat formula, and I would not change CR. What I do think you should do is be careful about the problems you give the players to solve, and be careful about which monsters you use. It is better if you keep the game at a low level unless you have other ways to compensate for lack of magic. Being permanently turned to stone by a medusa as an example might not go over well. IIRC you would need stone to flesh or break enchantment.

[Undone]

Suddenly Magic Bane Bandersnaches.

[Tacticslion]

I wish to clarify: while I may sound challenging to the OP, I am by no means telling you that this is a bad idea, only that in order to give better advice, we need more information to go on.

[Kayerloth]

wraithstrike wrote:

There is no flat formula, and I would not change CR. What I do think you should do is be careful about the problems you give the players to solve, and be careful about which monsters you use. It is better if you keep the game at a low level unless you have other ways to compensate for lack of magic. Being permanently turned to stone by a medusa as an example might not go over well. IIRC you would need stone to flesh or break enchantment.

To take this a step further decide what the options for the PCs are for a "condition" before it happens, ideally before the game even starts. In turn this leads back to what Tacticslion is saying about needing to know more about the details. Is magic something only the NPCs control? Is magic exceedingly rare even for the NPCs (or truly unknown - and presumably waiting to be rediscovered ... or why use PF rules in the first place when plenty of sci-fi rules are out there)?

I don't think there is an easy answer to the OP question and certainly not a flat increase of 'x' amount for 'y' defense.

[keyafay]

Things to clarify and keep in mind.

1. This is a custom Campaign, driving to a steam punk style.
2. I have changed potions from magic to Alchemical
3. I am utilizing encounters that will not require magic in order to defeat them.

This hasn't been laziness or lack of thought for the set up. I have always believed in the saying “Two heads are better than one” so although I have a method that is working, I always like to look for ways of making it better.

I do like everyone’s input and I feel more confident in what I have created so far. The “Pure Steam” 3rd party book has been a great reference to this as well.

Thank You all for the feedback!

[Gevaudan]

Be really careful about using incorporeal creatures like shadows. One of them could pretty easily wipe a party with no magic, barring every player playing some sort of non-magic alchemist.

Two or three shadows at once is wildly dangerous to normal low level parties. Non-magic gimps really badly in that situation.

[LazarX]

keyafay wrote:

Things to clarify and keep in mind.

1. This is a custom Campaign, driving to a steam punk style.
2. I have changed potions from magic to Alchemical
3. I am utilizing encounters that will not require magic in order to defeat them.

This hasn't been laziness or lack of thought for the set up. I have always believed in the saying “Two heads are better than one” so although I have a method that is working, I always like to look for ways of making it better.

I do like everyone’s input and I feel more confident in what I have created so far. The “Pure Steam” 3rd party book has been a great reference to this as well.

Thank You all for the feedback!

The problem is that you're asking a question that assumes a standard type setting and a standard type campaign using the standard rules. You've gone far enough off the beam in all three axes, that the CR system isn't that meaningful anymore.

[Thomas Long 175]

Gevaudan wrote:

Be really careful about using incorporeal creatures like shadows. One of them could pretty easily wipe a party with no magic, barring every player playing some sort of non-magic alchemist.

Two or three shadows at once is wildly dangerous to normal low level parties. Non-magic gimps really badly in that situation.

Technically alchemical bombs are still non magical last I checked and incorporeal creatures are immune to every non magical form of attack. This would include elemental ones.

Holy water only works because it specifically calls it out in the ability.

Incorporeal Quality

Quote:

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.[/url]

[voideternal]

I don't know steam punk. Do ghosts even exist in steam punk? If not, then maybe incorporeality is not a concern as they don't exist.

In the OP, you said you were writing a Module. If you're writing a module for the general public, I'd keep in mind that some people like to keep using previous characters and run them through several different modules. If you flat out ban magic, your module might conflict with the people who are currently using full-casters.

[Kolokotroni]

keyafay wrote:

Things to clarify and keep in mind.

1. This is a custom Campaign, driving to a steam punk style.
2. I have changed potions from magic to Alchemical
3. I am utilizing encounters that will not require magic in order to defeat them.

This hasn't been laziness or lack of thought for the set up. I have always believed in the saying “Two heads are better than one” so although I have a method that is working, I always like to look for ways of making it better.

I do like everyone’s input and I feel more confident in what I have created so far. The “Pure Steam” 3rd party book has been a great reference to this as well.

Thank You all for the feedback!

Ok, so the campaign is steampunk style, does that mean that enemies are mostly humanoids? If thats the case and they also lack magic, the issue is limited.

Pacing will be a problem since players wont be able to recover from injury or negative conditions. Poisons for instance become extremely dangerous and debilitating in the long term. Things that do ability damage will be disproportionately powerful. And an inability to easily recover hit points (unless they are very cheap potions dont fix this problem) means fewer encounters per day are possible. Other then that, I'd say maybe assume CR is 1 higher for humanoid enemies (the lack of magic will hit players slightly harder then it does npcs, but not dramatically so).

But if you are including supernatural foes, vampires, monsters etc, there's no formula. The party will struggle against these kinds of foes without magical resources. It will have to be case by case, encounter by encounter, and expect potential party wipes.

Pace your campaign so the players are meant to encounter just one or two encounters per day. Dont do dungeon crawels, or big multi encounter locations. It will likely need to be episodic with several non-combat encounters punctuated by one or two combat encounters.

[Gevaudan]

Thomas Long 175 wrote:

Technically alchemical bombs are still non magical last I checked and incorporeal creatures are immune to every non magical form of attack. This would include elemental ones.

Alchemist's bombs are magical. They are supernatural.

Bomb (Su)

In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies.