The idea, in itself, is kind of simple. Alchemists can already throw their bombs 20ft, why not simply go even more heavily bomb focused and merge it with a ranged attack. Of course at that point you are losing your biggest advantage with bombs, which is that they target touch AC.
Or are you? If you make use of a fire-arm, then you can assuredly gain the advantage, right? Well, not so much. Explosive Missile limits you to one handed fire-arms so you either lose range or simply do not gain any range advantage, even if you multiclass into gunslinger...
Unless you multiclass into being a Bolt Ace. Bolt Aces have a unique Deed they can select at level 1 called Sharp Shoot. This ability allows their next attack to be touch AC as long as it is within the first range increment...which means you can bomb a single target at 30-120 feet multiple times a day depending on your crossbow of choice. At say, level 12, a BoltAce 1, Alchemist 11 can deal 6d6+ her Int mod to a single target across the map and effect them with any bomb variant she cares to use. Not too special until you realize you are so far away from your enemies that they can barely spit in your direction.
This can be combined with the Grenadier archetype to apply an additional effect, allowing an alchemist/gunslinger from level 3 onward to apply an Alchemic liquid or powder to her ammunition. This is a move action, while Explosive Missile is a standard Action, allowing you to use your full turn to deal the Bolt's damage, your Bomb's damage, the alchemic effect's damage, AND your Int mod in damage while using your Dex as an attack roll against your opponent's touch AC. If you care to go for Gunslinger 5 with this build you can also apply your Dex bonus on damage and deal higher critical hits, plus you'll get the ability to just blatantly ignore attacks of opportunity while loading your crossbow for free, a bonus to your AC, a free feat, and some precious full BAB progression, though you sadly do not get to strength your weakest save.
This just seems like a really cool combination, even if it isn't spectacularly damage efficient. With all the different bomb discoveries that allow you to debuff from a distance, it seems like a neat concept. Plus, you do not lose your ability to deal large amounts of AoE damage with your bombs if you want as you can just close in if you really need to. I just like the idea of being able to blind, confuse, grease, and tangle people across the map while also causing them to explode and forcing them to take damage from my Int and possibly my Dex as well. Of course the largest problem here is that the build is MAD and I am not sure if it could ever really be effective.
I guess the other option would be to go for a more Bow-centric character, but that has its own set of issues, namely that you are no longer going after touch AC but instead are trying to take down their full AC and there is a huge difference between the two. Besides, using a bow you would be very tempted into making use of STR, and at that point why not just be a mutagen Alchemist?
Anyway, this just seems like a really neat idea, but I'm terrible at optimizing this sort of thing. Any assistance would be really cool.
Huh, yeah, I'd try to get the Gunsmithing traded out for something...not sure why Bolt Aces get that and their starting fire-arm anyway.
Guess you are right about the Gunslinger, I just thought I'd be saving a feat or two since I could ignore AoOs when reloading and the extra combat feat would be nice...plus Dex on hits. But you are right, the extra bombs are probably super nice. What about Level 3 in Gunslinger for the lack of AoOs? Or is that not worth it, because those extra two levels basically save you a feat.
I've played almost this exact character with a gun, I got the one-handed part hand waved away, so I can tell you it works fine, you get a lot of mileage out of your bombs instead of nova damage, and force bomb is especially good for you.
Right, sorry, I always read Gunslingers as picking a Deed instead of getting all relevant deeds at their level. I'm bad at that.
Anyway, that is a good point, and thank you for telling me about the Hybridization Funnel, that helps a lot.
Alchemist +int to splash
Underground chemist rogue +int to splash/sneak attack on splash
Bolt ace +dex to crossbow
Crossbow fighter: +1/2dex to crossbow on readied
Focused shot +int to crossbow
Kirin style feats +int to damage
Hmmmmmmmm.... this might be a build
Fighter 3/Bolt ace 5/Underground chemist 4/ Vivisectionist alchemist 9
you could probably get some devilishly evil poison application to this stuff too....
How i'd do it?
Race Half-Elf:---(Racial heritage:Goblin first feat)
Get EWP free
Add burn burn burn into the mix.....
Beastmorph, Bramble brewer and vivisectionist all stack, so take that first level :D
Get Quickdraw ASAP!!!! Before rapid reload/rapid shot
Something evil will happen to me if I continue this, but don't forget to poison your.... flasks......?
Eventually something like 2d6(Alchemist fireacid)+28(Assuming 18 dex/20 int) +1d4 +5d6 on a readied action, don't forget to say "to the first MUTHABRUTHA WHO MOVES ANYWHERE IN THIS ROOM, IMMA BLOW YOU UP"
Since this is a "Readied action" build, you can take your move actions to potion, and your swift actions to knowledge
And... well, if you're going Vivisectionist, how are you putting a bomb in the crossbow again?
Since that's kind of the glue that holds the whole thing together.
it's a personal choice honestly, you could do it without vivisectionist but using flasks is still viable
Considering you have alchemist fircid (Fire-acid 0m0), and you're sneak attacking on it, you'll be fine.
Actually i think the net damage is pretty close, i'm assuming you'd make it cheaply and efficiently anyways, and there's no limit per day on your flasks.
*Edit* The vivisectionist is also there because you shouldn't forget the value of a mutagen, especially a beastmorph mutagen that lets you have plant traits.
Drop the goblin and go for grippili, because they have an alchemist archetype too, and that sexy poison skin
Hell yeah underwater breathing XD
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Also, in regards to the Hybridization Funnel, each alchemical splash weapon is considered a separate item that is delivered simultaneously. Therefore you count your INT to damage twice, once for each splash weapon. Combined with the Grenadier Alchemical Weapon, you lose the splash but the target still takes the base damage of each of the two hybridized splash weapons as well as INTx2. I'm typing from my phone but I know that a tiefling with a prehensile tail has the action economy to draw the hybridized splash weapon, infuse with Alchemical Weapon and add their bomb to the same bolt/arrow with Explosive Missle in the same attack.
Non-Tieflings will need to confirm they can perform the same actions without the swift-draw tail option.
Vivisectionists do not get bombs. Kinda kills the purpose of a bomb build.
*Edit* The vivisectionist is also there because you shouldn't forget the value of a mutagen, especially a beastmorph mutagen that lets you have plant traits.
I understand that they do not get bombs, but they still get those bonuses to splash weapons, and it's just more cost efficient to have 1d6 sneak attack that can be applied to a splash weapon as opposed to 1d6 bomb damage which can only be used x times per day. The sneak attack can stack with all your other damage output, making you a brutal switch hitter once you drink your mutagen.
Vivisectionists do not get bombs. Kinda kills the purpose of a bomb build.
*Edit* The vivisectionist is also there because you shouldn't forget the value of a mutagen, especially a beastmorph mutagen that lets you have plant traits.
I understand that they do not get bombs, but they still get those bonuses to splash weapons, and it's just more cost efficient to have 1d6 sneak attack that can be applied to a splash weapon as opposed to 1d6 bomb damage which can only be used x times per day. The sneak attack can stack with all your other damage output, making you a brutal switch hitter once you drink your mutagen.
You can't apply precision damage to a splash/aoe attack. So it's not cost efficient at all.
Ryzoken, you forgot about the Alchemist's Tentacle discovery. Sure it would take up your level 2 discovery but you only need Explosive Missile at level 4 so you had one to "burn" anyway.
So it is easy enough to have 3 limbs even without being a Tiefling, though I think you would still need quickdraw to draw the alchemic weapon unless you had something else that allowed you to draw the flask as a swift action.
Regardless, you would be able to do that without having to ever drop the shield since it could be carried around by your tentacle. Not sure if that is as effective but it is pretty neat and as you said, quite a lot of damage.
Does grenadier let you put a bomb on the arrow? I thought it was just for alchemical items.
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A typical turn at level 5 would appear to be:
Free: stow quickdraw shield
Free: draw alchemical weapon (previously hybridized via funnel)
Move: Alchemical Weapon the hybrid alchemist fireacid to xbow bolt
Standard: prime bolt with bomb, load, and fire, spending a grit to hit touch
Free: draw quickdraw shield
...
I thought you only got 1 free action a round, am I incorrect?
Ok, kool.
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I do not think it is much of an issue as the Grenadier ability reads that they can "infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question."
This seems to imply to me that the move action is consumed to apply the alchemic weapon to the ammunition, which includes drawing the alchemic weapon from where-ever it was stored. Perhaps that would be up for GM discretion, but that is how I read it.
Wish we had a rules lawyer about this.
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I do not think it is much of an issue as the Grenadier ability reads that they can "infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question."
This seems to imply to me that the move action is consumed to apply the alchemic weapon to the ammunition, which includes drawing the alchemic weapon to the ammunition, which includes drawing the alchemic weapon from where-ever it was stored. Perhaps that would be up for GM discretion, but that is how I read it.
Yes, that is correct. Only a move action is required to infuse an alchemical weapon with this ability, not two move actions (one to retrieve, another to apply.)
The wording does not say that the Alchemist is directly applying the liquid onto the ammunation, but simply that it's "infused" with it. It's vague, but as written, it doesn't require it to be drawn.
The "quickening" of the action cost simply allows an Alchemist to eventually full-attack with it at level 6. Otherwise, they'd never be able to perform multiple attacks in a round (such as Rapid Shot) with an alchemical weapon as they'd be spending their move actions to draw them. Adding an extra d6 for Alchemist's Fire is hardly game breaking for a 3/4 BAB class, especially compared to pure Fighter archers or Zen Archer Monks.
The Alchemist class in general breaks all sorts of common rules. Their Extracts function similarly to potions, except that only a standard action is required to drink one; no move action is required to first draw the Extract. Same with bombs. In a single standard action, the Alchemist is, "Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb..." (APG).
YES. Thank you ThreeEyedSloth, that is how I thought it was written.
two levels in the underground chemist rogue archetype allows for quick draw alchemical weapons, and i think eventually putting sneak attack on them (though that doesn't apply to this build)
Yupyup that's exactly what I was getting at in my prior statements. Underground chemist rogue is needed for this build honestly., might as well two dip it to gain access to rogue talents via additional rogue talent
I built a tiefling crossbow alchemist, and then bolt ace just fell into my lap. Can't say i'm mad.
Here's what i've learned...
I've had fun with casting darkness on crossbow bolts,
don't forget screaming bolts and tangle bolts from the magic item section. 1-2 of each
Just use cold iron bolts, 24-7, switch to silver if needed.
Weapon blanch is awesome
Have the extracts which make you a better archer. Honestly, a flying archer with darkvison and see invisibility can be better than a human zen archer monk sometimes.
You can apply the effect to a peice of ammunition 1 minute prior to battle. I think that would significantly help cut down on the early action economy issues as well.
I just figured out that you can basically guarantee a hit thanks to the fact that alchemists have access to True Strike, which functions as a back-up incase you run out of Grit, so Wisdom isn't actually as important as it might previously seem.
I think I am actually going to make the whole character up and post them.
I agree, it is a trade of action economy for accuracy; however you are playing with a lot of consumables and having a back-up strategy is important since wasting a shot uses up a fair bit of consumables.
It is a first level extract, perfect to help you early game, especially considering you will be out-damaging everyone else on the table for quite a while. At 5th level with like 18 INT, as a small creature wielding a light cross bow, you deal 5d6+12 for an absolute minimum of 17 damage. At a maximum, you deal 42 damage.
A fifth level fighter with a Greatsword and 18 STR and power attack deals 2d6+10 for a minimum of 12 and a maximum of 22.
You can almost double a Fighter's damage early game, so it actually ends up about even on the action Economy. Especially since you can cast True Strike on the same turn you infuse your ammunition and then move and shoot on the next round. This allows you to save Grit.
Also, you cannot take a Wisdom Headband I am sorry to say. Intelligence just does too much for you giving you 3x your modifier in damage. You need a Headband of Vast Intellect until you can afford a Headband of Mental Prowess. Once you have that, you do not need True Strike all that much anymore. I agree that either 10 or 14 is the score you should have for Wisdom, but you also need at least 14 in Dex (preferably 16), a (Hopefully) decent con, and the highest Intelligence you can manage. Con can be kept lower if you go for HP every level, but then you are pretty limited on Bombs since you didn't take a race that gave you bombs. Your choice of preferred class bonus is basically Bombs, HP, or Discoveries. Incidentally, Ratfolk are GREAT for this build.
You can also go for 12 on Wis if you play a race that gives you a minus 2 to Wis. You can take a -2 to Strength, Charisma, and Wis...Con, Dex, and Int not so much. Maybe con if you are suicidal...I mean, confident. Yes, confident.