|
I am confused by something regarding these. First off yes i know they don't "stack" but that's where the line is blurring. To me (this is my take on this) stacking is if i'm using a katana (18-20) with keen (reduces it to 15-20)and get improved crit would then stack the bonuses and get another 6 points reduction instead of just the normal 3. I'm being told that's wrong though and even if i had keen and improved crit i would still be at 15-20. Can i have some help understanding this?
This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll. This benefit doesn't stack with any other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).
This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. This transmutation doubles the threat range of the weapon. A threat range of 20 becomes 19-20, a threat range of 19-20 becomes 17-20, and a threat range of 18-20 becomes 15-20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons. If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target. Treat shuriken as arrows, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.
Multiple effects that increase a weapon's threat range (such as the keen special weapon property and the Improved Critical feat) don't stack. You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as a claw.
Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.
Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.
This is all the relevant text. Your answer should be among them.
|
|
Pathfinder doesn't stack like that in the first place. It's always based on the base value not cumulative so if it did stack it would be a 3 point increase in the range, taking you from 15-20 to 12-20, not to 9-20. So, "it doesn't stack" means they don't combine at all.
Thats what i thought, I'm wanting to know if having keen and improved crit will take me to 12-20 or if its a waste of time to get improved crit
|
Pathfinder doesn't stack like that in the first place. It's always based on the base value not cumulative so if it did stack it would be a 3 point increase in the range, taking you from 15-20 to 12-20, not to 9-20. So, "it doesn't stack" means they don't combine at all.Thats what i thought, I'm wanting to know if having keen and improved crit will take me to 12-20 or if its a waste of time to get improved crit
it doesn't. It's a waste.
|
|
The reason i'm asking all this is because of the new swashbuckler class. If gives an ability that gives the effects of improved crit without being improved crit itself. So here is the question, which one is right?
(here is the ability discription)
Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every four levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).
Katana - crit range 18-20
Way #1 - Keen + improved crit + swashbucklers weapon training = 9-20 crit (3 points for each keen, improved crit, and weapon training)
Way #2 - Keen + improved crit + swashbucklers weapon training = 12-20 crit (one of the improved crit things doesnt stack)
Way #3 - Keen + improved crit + swashbucklers weapon training = 15-20 crit (even though all 3 of these are here only 1 works)
Which one is right?
Good news! That's 6000gp you can spend elsewhere now. More if you were planning to TWF.
It's still #3. It will not get any lower.Well...that makes being a swashbuckler and having a keen weapon useless...i think with any class where there is a crit thing build in, they should allow it to stack
It allows you to allocate the resources you would have spent investing in Keen elsewhere. Hardly a waste.
If you can't see how having a crit range of 9-20 or even 12-20 would be problematic, I would ask why you are so interested in acquiring a crit range like that. Pretty sure your answer will be that it's powerful as hell compared to most everything else available to martial characters, right?
|
|
It's still #3. It will not get any lower.Well...that makes being a swashbuckler and having a keen weapon useless...i think with any class where there is a crit thing build in, they should allow it to stackIt allows you to allocate the resources you would have spent investing in Keen elsewhere. Hardly a waste.
If you can't see how having a crit range of 9-20 or even 12-20 would be problematic, I would ask why you are so interested in acquiring a crit range like that. Pretty sure your answer will be that it's powerful as hell compared to most everything else available to martial characters, right?
I can see why it would be problematic for the 9-20 but right now we have a custom class playing in ours (a myrmidon) and he is criting like crazy. Also apparently my ability and keen do stack cause its part of my class (go me). But the main reason i want a high crit range isn't for the damage, its because of my class. I use Panache points and i get them back by scoring a critical hit, that's why i want more crit range.
This swashbuckler? Yeah, it stacks with that class.
|
|
Sorry, they still don't stack, even as a class ability. Your class ability provides improved critical, which does nothing with keen.
There really is no way in this game to get a better crit range than 15-20.
Your class ability, while using the relevant weapons, gives the improved critical feat. The improved critical feat specifically calls out not working with keen. Therefore your ability does not stack with keen.
Gains the benefit of, not the actual ability. I think this is a grey area at the moment. Its not improved crit only like it thus you cant use it as a reference but it is the benefits of it. I'm hoping Paizo will address this grey area. My GM says it stacks so i'm happy for the extra crit range but ya...since this just came out i just don't know.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If your GM allows those to stack, then more power to you but it would be a house rule. I'm playing a crit and Outflank based summoner in a campaign and I crit at least once per fight, usually more. 15-20 is plenty.
|
|
This swashbuckler? Yeah, it stacks with that class.
No the one found in the new class guide
http://paizo.com/products/btpy978v?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Advanced-Cla ss-Guide
|
|
It's not a grey area...nobody questions it, at the end of the day, whatever you want to do in your homegame is your prerogative.
It seems like it is a grey area. I've looked at guides for this brand new character saying to either get keen blades or improved crit (they say the blades are better) because it stacks. I've had my GM say as plain as day that it does stack but it doesn't stack with improved crit (not saying it as a house rule just that it does) So i will say once more. I understand improved crit and keen dont stack fine. But as far as this ability goes (its more or less a better version of improved crit because it adds to hit and damage as well) it is a grey area and needs to be addressed formally by paizo.
I think its because in the decribtion of keen, "this does not stack with ANY other benefits that expand the crit range...".
The keyword is ANY, the spell and feat at the end are just examples and not the only ones it doesnt stack with. So ANY would mean any effect that increases ur crit range dos not stack.
not a spell, not a feat, not a class ability, nothing that increases crit range will stack with the keen enchant.
Nonetheless you've got a bunch of people telling you it's not a grey area.
It's not a grey area...nobody questions it, at the end of the day, whatever you want to do in your homegame is your prerogative.It seems like it is a grey area. I've looked at guides for this brand new character saying to either get keen blades or improved crit (they say the blades are better) because it stacks. I've had my GM say as plain as day that it does stack but it doesn't stack with improved crit (not saying it as a house rule just that it does) So i will say once more. I understand improved crit and keen dont stack fine. But as far as this ability goes (its more or less a better version of improved crit because it adds to hit and damage as well) it is a grey area and needs to be addressed formally by paizo.
There WAS one ability in 3.5 which did stack with either Improved Critical or Keen. And it was broken.
HOW it worked was that it increase the Natural Threat Range by exactly 1 number, meaning 18-20 became 17-20; this is how it got around the Keen/Improved Crit non-interaction. You would increase the Threat Range from 18-20 to 17-20, which is 4 numbers; you then double that value with either Keen or Improved Critical, which is 8 numbers, which means you threaten a Critical on a 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, or 13.
Again, this was completely broken, and was one of the worst designs Wizards of the Coast came up with in 3.5
|
|
It's not a grey area...nobody questions it, at the end of the day, whatever you want to do in your homegame is your prerogative.It seems like it is a grey area. I've looked at guides for this brand new character saying to either get keen blades or improved crit (they say the blades are better) because it stacks. I've had my GM say as plain as day that it does stack but it doesn't stack with improved crit (not saying it as a house rule just that it does) So i will say once more. I understand improved crit and keen dont stack fine. But as far as this ability goes (its more or less a better version of improved crit because it adds to hit and damage as well) it is a grey area and needs to be addressed formally by paizo.There WAS one ability in 3.5 which did stack with either Improved Critical or Keen. And it was broken.
HOW it worked was that it increase the Natural Threat Range by exactly 1 number, meaning 18-20 became 17-20; this is how it got around the Keen/Improved Crit non-interaction. You would increase the Threat Range from 18-20 to 17-20, which is 4 numbers; you then double that value with either Keen or Improved Critical, which is 8 numbers, which means you threaten a Critical on a 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, or 13.
Again, this was completely broken, and was one of the worst designs Wizards of the Coast came up with in 3.5
Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every four levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).
Again it says they get the benefit if conditions are met, that is the big grey area to me. Thats like saying that if you're using a keen scimitar your crit range is 15-20. But if you get dervish dance that same scimitar can also be piercing and now qualifies for this situation bonus but doesnt get it.
|
|
The swashbuckler ability does not specifically say it stacks with any other crit range enhancers, therefore it doesn't since Keen never stacks as per its own description and Imp Crit is what you are basically gaining via the class itself.
So this is not grey at all
I just posted under this but the grey area is the situational setting of it. Also by your logic the fact that it doesnt say it doesnt stack means it does.
|
|
It seems like it is a grey area.It's not a grey area. The rules are really really clear. And I'm a pedant who loves picking at rules! It specifically says that while using certain weapons you gain the benefit of the feat (and also some other bonuses). That is not and cannot be different in effect from having the feat (and also some other bonuses). If you had the feat, they wouldn't stack. So if you have this, they don't stack. And Paizo aren't going to clarify something this obvious.
There might be a certain amount of wishful thinking going on, but it isn't a grey area.
I've looked at guides for this brand new character saying to either get keen blades or improved crit (they say the blades are better) because it stacks.It's also possible (and not actually that unusual) for guides to have mistakes. Guides are generally written by fans and don't have a proofing process. People can make mistakes, especially when they're overly enthusiastic about something.
I've had my GM say as plain as day that it does stack but it doesn't stack with improved critThen your GM got it wrong. Bear in mind, GMs are people too and can also make mistakes. :-)
Ability gives you the effects of improved crit. Improved crit does not work with keen. Ability does not work with keen. Not hard.
The good news is: you don't have to spend money on a keen weapon. And you get a bonus plus effectively a free feat at 5th level, when the feat itself would only be available at 8th. So it saved you a feat, which is really good.
Also, seems that Improved Critical DOES stack with Bless Weapon:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bless-weapon
Also, 5th level is (hopefully) the earliest it's possible to combo those two effects. So go out, get an oil of bless weapon, stab up some evil people, and be happy about having a really good option three levels early rather than hoping to get it better.Also, if the homebrew other...
See if this was posted at the beginning it would have been a lot more helpful. Just saying "No it doesnt work" doesnt really help even if you say it 5 different ways. And as to the "Paizo aren't going to clarify something this obvious" comment. By clarify i meant put it as a little bit in the ability description itself not make a press release or anything. "Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): blah blah blah (does not stack with keen or improved critical feat) blah blah blah" Anyways thats the end of this thread
|
|
I just posted under this but the grey area is the situational setting of it. Also by your logic the fact that it doesnt say it doesnt stack means it does.The swashbuckler ability does not specifically say it stacks with any other crit range enhancers, therefore it doesn't since Keen never stacks as per its own description and Imp Crit is what you are basically gaining via the class itself.
So this is not grey at all
Keen says it doesn't stack with anything.
You are gaining, for all intents and purposes, the IC feat and you cannot stack 2 instances of the same effect.
Since this ability was written the most recent if it was supposed to be able to stack then it would be written that it is a specific exemption to the long standing general rules for Keen and stacking 2 instances of the same ability.
Nothing grey what so ever
Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a
swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage
rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons.
While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of
the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage
bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th level
(to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).
Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.
Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.
KEEN
Price +1 bonus
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Weight —
This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll. This benefit doesn't stack with any other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).
KEEN EDGES
School transmutation; Level inquisitor 3, magus 3, sorcerer/wizard 3; Domain murder 3CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one weapon or 50 projectiles, all of which must be together at the time of casting
Duration 10 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)DESCRIPTION
This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. This transmutation doubles the threat range of the weapon. A threat range of 20 becomes 19-20, a threat range of 19-20 becomes 17-20, and a threat range of 18-20 becomes 15-20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons. If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target. Treat shuriken as arrows, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.Multiple effects that increase a weapon's threat range (such as the keen special weapon property and the Improved Critical feat) don't stack. You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as a claw.
There, plain as day, is the definitive proof. There is no "Grey Area". Even if you think the Swashbuckler ability allows other effects to stack, which it really doesn't because you are under the effect of the Improved Critical Feat penalties and all, those other effects don't allow it from there end.
You get one increase to Threat Range in Pathfinder, period. Even if you gain the "benefit of the Improved Critical Feat" no other source in the game will play ball with that.
If anyone is telling you any of these abilities stack officially, they're either lying, didn't read the rules, or don't understand them. That one example above from Adamant Press doesn't really count, as that's not designed by Paizo; Paizo has never, and probably will never, print any ability which stacks with Keen, Keen Edges, Improved Critical, or any similar effects.
Your DM can houserule otherwise, but realize that will only be a houserule, not an official rule.
I agree the rules are clear - improved crit and keen edge don't stack. However, I think they should because the benefits are not the same type of effect. Improved crit is a learned technique with a weapon, whereas keen edge is a property of a weapon.
So a fighter who has learned to use a weapon in such a way that it increases damage - even if he's using a normal, non-masterwork weapon - should be even more dangerous when weilding a magically sharp one.
Perhaps a compromise house rule could be to grant the benefit of the Critical Focus feat whenever a character with the improved crit feat is using a keen version of the weapon he chose for the imp crit feat. You'd be more likely to confirm your crits, but you wouldn't be threatening a crit on a 12, which is what I assume the designers were trying to avoid.
If that character then took Crit Focus for reals, I might consider stacking the bonus to +8, or allowing two confirmation rolls at +4. This person would confirm a lot more crits than the average bear, but I don't feel like that would be over-powered.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
First, this is a very old thread and most of the people you are responding to aren't around anymore.
Second, I'm pretty sure this was a change from 3.0 to 3.5. It was a mechanical limit to prevent certain builds that threatened criticals on 9-20.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
First, this is a very old thread and most of the people you are responding to aren't around anymore.
Second, I'm pretty sure this was a change from 3.0 to 3.5. It was a mechanical limit to prevent certain builds that threatened criticals on 9-20.
You are correct on your second point. That was a deliberate change in the 3.5 update.