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In this thread, I will explain why I believe PFO needs to implement some form of a cooking/eating system at some point.
The reason why I believe cooking appeals to me in a sandbox is it ties in to two things:
One would be hunger. If you look at your paperdoll and see you are getting hungry and that affects your character's abilities, you will have a new dynamic beyond just keep your health up and gear repaired. This gives a more immersion. Even in the middle of a war, you have to worry about eating.
Two would be character overall nourishment. Seeing your character grow and change depending on what you feed them and how they exert themselves is a very cool mechanic. I don't even imagine it's that hard to put into play, even if you only put in certain visuals (like fat, normal, skinny), and of course that could affect their abilities.
This, coupled with the idea of having to rest (which I feel ties into cooking because they both align with overall character well-being... beyond just health bars), will make PFO a much deeper game. I am sure of it.
Since the game has drop recipes, I don't see why it would be too hard to have some simple cooking recipes to start, maybe some ales and such as well. Then add to it as more things are implemented.
Goblin Squad Member
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In this thread, I will explain why I believe PFO needs to implement some form of a cooking/eating system at some point.
The reason why I believe cooking appeals to me in a sandbox is it ties in to two things:
One would be hunger. If you look at your paperdoll and see you are getting hungry and that affects your character's abilities, you will have a new dynamic beyond just keep your health up and gear repaired. This gives a more immersion. Even in the middle of a war, you have to worry about eating.
Two would be character overall nourishment. Seeing your character grow and change depending on what you feed them and how they exert themselves is a very cool mechanic. I don't even imagine it's that hard to put into play, even if you only put in certain visuals (like fat, normal, skinny), and of course that could affect their abilities.
This, coupled with the idea of having to rest (which I feel ties into cooking because they both align with overall character well-being... beyond just health bars), will make PFO a much deeper game. I am sure of it.
Since the game has drop recipes, I don't see why it would be too hard to have some simple cooking recipes to start, maybe some ales and such as well. Then add to it as more things are implemented.
HeH then we could have bloatmages
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see hunger be a system that only gives negative effects past a certain point. Not something you are constantly having to top off to be at 100% effectiveness. Those kinds of systems just annoy me.
The regular "food buff" thing from theme-parks also is a crap system.
Basically I'd like it so if I make periodic stops at taverns and inns to rest and grab a bite as I travel the only time I need to worry about food is if I'm doing something that keeps me from a tavern for an extended period of time.
Such as running around enemy territory.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope whatever food system is implemented does more than just a food buff (which is pretty lame). The entire food system (farming and hunting, cooking, preservation and spoilage, inns ad taverns, brewing and distilling, etc). I know many people/players prefer eating a power pill to get 10% attack bonus, but that has been done, and is neither interesting nor deep. I do support food giving some sort of buff, but also think eating periodically should be a requirement to keep the food crafting system as deep as possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see an incentive to eat higher QL foods but if it can be done without "food buffs" that would make me very happy.
If food buffs absolutely must be implemented they should have an extremely long duration. Not be something you have to eat to regain every 10 minutes.
Basically an incentive to get the prime rib and fine wine when you go to the inn rather than bread and water. Not an incentive to carry around a stack of prime rib you keep having to pop whenever you notice your bonus is about to run out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Isn't the visit a tavern to restore power a variant on this? Consider how these might combine. The tavern cooks create the meals to restore power. The Kickstart Taverns come with NPC cooks, but these can be improved with PC cooks. Cooks facilitate production of campsite. Which may mean that cooks are refiners converting food, game, fish, herd, certain herbs with wood/coal to pantry item which is part of a crafted camp? Cooks could also be involved in transformation of BULK FOOD to support POI Taverns or even in support of settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like a good cooking system, but only once we have enough storage space for it. I've run into few in other games that don't take up a huge amount of the space a single character has available to him; some seem deliberately designed with more cooking components than one can store.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Cooking is probably delayed a little bit because doing it right requires lots of fiddly bits of design work.
Nobody really notices that "weak acidic" components are fungible, but most people know cooking well enough to know that hot peppers aren't used to preserve meat, even though they are 'spices'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps a food to increase stamina, another to boost encumbrance, and a different one to heighten perception. An oil of some kind to boost stealth, another to intimidate an NPC, a sweet treat to increase luck, a beverage to increase hit points...you get he idea. But I do still like the idea of cooking and eating, and all the associated gathering, refining and crafting skills being a vital part of the overall crafting system. It would add depth and boost the economy.
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I personally envision Eating/Drinking to being worked into the Resting system.
Say you take a few minutes to head into a local tavern, you order some food, drink, listen to a song by a local PC Bard to get an Energy Restorative effect that lets you head back into the wilderness without having to use any of the limited "refresh" abilities you have. What we want is a reason for players to hang out together socially in taverns, and HOW we achieve that is up to us, I think this is a great chance to inject some RP into our mechanics.
Players at field can carry and use rations as expendables to help give them a temporary and very slow form of energy regen, similar to what a Basecamp could achieve but at a rate comparable to their price differences.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Cooking is probably delayed a little bit because doing it right requires lots of fiddly bits of design work.
Nobody really notices that "weak acidic" components are fungible, but most people know cooking well enough to know that hot peppers aren't used to preserve meat, even though they are 'spices'.
This is the reason why we went to abstract "camping" to restore power for the near future. Making a cool system for what happens when you eat food has lots of fun possibilities. Making a system to craft food that doesn't require creating a number of component items greater than all the other craft skills put together is hard.
Comes down to everyone knowing how to cook and having feelings about what makes sense.
But if people would be happy with something on the same scale as the rest of the crafting system (e.g., refining scrub potatoes, buckwheat, or wild maize down into "basic starch", refining rabbit, grouse, or squirrel down into "basic meat", and crafting a pile of both into a "lesser meat sandwich") then I'll write up a cooking crafting system tomorrow ;) .
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cooking is probably delayed a little bit because doing it right requires lots of fiddly bits of design work.
Nobody really notices that "weak acidic" components are fungible, but most people know cooking well enough to know that hot peppers aren't used to preserve meat, even though they are 'spices'.
This is the reason why we went to abstract "camping" to restore power for the near future. Making a cool system for what happens when you eat food has lots of fun possibilities. Making a system to craft food that doesn't require creating a number of component items greater than all the other craft skills put together is hard.
Comes down to everyone knowing how to cook and having feelings about what makes sense.
But if people would be happy with something on the same scale as the rest of the crafting system (e.g., refining scrub potatoes, buckwheat, or wild maize down into "basic starch", refining rabbit, grouse, or squirrel down into "basic meat", and crafting a pile of both into a "lesser meat sandwich") then I'll write up a cooking crafting system tomorrow ;) .
That sounds cool though eating raw ingredients should have some value just not as much as a beautifully crafted feast.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd prefer cooking remain somewhat abstracted. I think that to some decree, the camping doesn't need to go into detail of what is available to eat - the best campsites have good food, the worst are sort of hardscrabble.
I'd like to see inns abstracted. While most of the inn upgrades might be focused on improving the basic living conditions, the best inns (ie, the ones that give max benefits in shortest time) might also need the kitchen functioning well to give full benefits. A well-functioning, high-standards kitchen might need game (mountain/forest food), meat from herds (hill food), and fish (water/swamp), as well as lots of bread and beer (plains food and drink) and wine (hills drink). A lesser inn with a more pedestrian table might be able to operate at full benefits with only a few types of food, but full benefits would be less than the maxed out inn. Food outlay would depend on usage; more visitors to an inn should also increase the food usage.
I'm thinking that tying the abstract inn food to bulk food would drive some amount of trade - it gives mountaineers reason to build at least a few hunting camp Outposts. Also, the privations of war and sieges might be more significant when such supplies must be taken into account. When the inn used for an army's mess runs out of meat and is down to breadstuffs and water, it could take longer for Injury points to be healed and Power to recharge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally like the idea of giving a small boost to DI if your settlement has reserves of multiple food types. While those living on the plains might have a huge amount of wheat, for example, the locals might really love to have some fish now and again. This gives incentives to trade yet another resource, and would make for more human interaction.
Yes for cooking please, it adds to roleplay and honestly there should be travelling cooks. You give taverns bonuses when the staff or owners are great cooks. Better food and drink add to the value of a good tavern.
Add it please and cojoin it not only with campsites (which could just have npc cooks based on the quality of said campsite) but also for taverns.
Cooking is probably delayed a little bit because doing it right requires lots of fiddly bits of design work.
Nobody really notices that "weak acidic" components are fungible, but most people know cooking well enough to know that hot peppers aren't used to preserve meat, even though they are 'spices'.
This is the reason why we went to abstract "camping" to restore power for the near future. Making a cool system for what happens when you eat food has lots of fun possibilities. Making a system to craft food that doesn't require creating a number of component items greater than all the other craft skills put together is hard.
Comes down to everyone knowing how to cook and having feelings about what makes sense.
But if people would be happy with something on the same scale as the rest of the crafting system (e.g., refining scrub potatoes, buckwheat, or wild maize down into "basic starch", refining rabbit, grouse, or squirrel down into "basic meat", and crafting a pile of both into a "lesser meat sandwich") then I'll write up a cooking crafting system tomorrow ;) .
Well, I guess the issue is will crafting get more advanced? I am hoping it will and if a starter cooking system could be implemented now (assuming that it was essential as I said, even if at this point it was just hunger/cooking and the nourishment later), I'd say yeah. There is no reason not to throw it in.
Different meats, fish, veggies... could come later when there are more enemy types.
To me, the issue is getting those ingredients even in the game. If you have wild potatoes, buckweat, etc just spawning in the wild, you're already mostly there. Same with having rabbits running around. To me, the step from that to a workable cooking system is very small. Need to add liquids somehow, too, but basically you could have meat quality be the same as ore. Make some roast beef +2 etc.
Even if you divided it into vegetables, fruits, grain; water and milk; then meats like fish, game, beef, that would hold down a cooking system for now. And that's only a few things excepting that they would be subbed in the same way crafting is.
Then, of course, the issue is hunger system... So, my final thought is, once you get the things that can be used for cooking in the game (although they could def be drops) as well as some level of hunger, the rest should be pretty simple and doesn't have to go wildly overboard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Community seems divided on this issue so far.
I do not think that outcome of the vote sais anything, because of a typical flaw of ideascale, where people can just put up a multifaceted dea and then let people vote on......which part?
In this particular case the idea-poster proposes buffs for HQ food and possible negative effects for eating low quality food. So in fact he proposes a Buff system, and a random Skinnerbox that penalizes you for being cheap. Two completely different features yet people get to cast a single vote. I am for Food buffs in some fashion, but against the penalizing skinnerbox.
I hope GW does not base any development decisions on the outcome of any votes of that tool. Reading the comments could be useful, thought we also have these forums for that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not considering buffs, food consumables could be tied to emotes.
In "The Secret World", food items are a nice little coin sink, each item executing an emote after triggering. You can sip from cocktail glasses, soda cans and beer bottles, smoke cigarettes and cigars and eat tacos. Each time you want to trigger such an emote, you have to consume an item.
I've heard talk of how some think the tavern owners deserve something special - maybe the tavern could be selling consumables that trigger *smoking a pipe*, *eating a plate of food*, *drinking beer from a stein* etc.
Could be quite popular, profitable for the tavern owners but still completely optional for players to buy into.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But if people would be happy with something on the same scale as the rest of the crafting system (e.g., refining scrub potatoes, buckwheat, or wild maize down into "basic starch", refining rabbit, grouse, or squirrel down into "basic meat", and crafting a pile of both into a "lesser meat sandwich") then I'll write up a cooking crafting system tomorrow ;) .
I'm sure plenty of people would appreciate it, but we can probably survive on our body fat until sometime in OE....
Community seems divided on this issue so far.
I do not think that outcome of the vote sais anything, because of a typical flaw of ideascale, where people can just put up a multifaceted dea and then let people vote on......which part?
In this particular case the idea-poster proposes buffs for HQ food and possible negative effects for eating low quality food. So in fact he proposes a Buff system, and a random Skinnerbox that penalizes you for being cheap. Two completely different features yet people get to cast a single vote. I am for Food buffs in some fashion, but against the penalizing skinnerbox.
I hope GW does not base any development decisions on the outcome of any votes of that tool. Reading the comments could be useful, thought we also have these forums for that.
I think Tynacle hit the nail on the head. Assessing where the community stands on a multifaceted item is not something Ideascale is good for. It is something a survey is good for, however. Ideascale and forum threads are handy for taking stock of what thoughts are out there on an issue.
I think, from what I am seeing here and on Ideascale, the community is united on the front of "There should be food," but disparate on how that system should affect game play.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Cooking is probably delayed a little bit because doing it right requires lots of fiddly bits of design work.
Nobody really notices that "weak acidic" components are fungible, but most people know cooking well enough to know that hot peppers aren't used to preserve meat, even though they are 'spices'.
This is the reason why we went to abstract "camping" to restore power for the near future. Making a cool system for what happens when you eat food has lots of fun possibilities. Making a system to craft food that doesn't require creating a number of component items greater than all the other craft skills put together is hard.
Comes down to everyone knowing how to cook and having feelings about what makes sense.
But if people would be happy with something on the same scale as the rest of the crafting system (e.g., refining scrub potatoes, buckwheat, or wild maize down into "basic starch", refining rabbit, grouse, or squirrel down into "basic meat", and crafting a pile of both into a "lesser meat sandwich") then I'll write up a cooking crafting system tomorrow ;) .
I would rather have a system where things are not nearly so fungible. Wait until you can afford a cook and a molecular gastronomist on staff and spend a month designing the system for the first or second major expansion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When Blizzard first introduced "Rest XP", they described it as a penalty that reduced XP to 50% of "normal" after losing the "rested" state. The community resoundingly rejected the idea. So, Blizzard kept the mechanics exactly the same, redefined "normal" XP to be that without the rested state, and described it as a [b]bonus[/i] that increased XP by 100% while the "rested" state was active. The community loved it.
Any idea that describes Food & Drink in terms of being "required" is going to face this same kind of resistance. Even if it's functionally identical, it needs to be phrased as a bonus when it's present rather than as a penalty when it's missing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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- I think adding cooking at some point in the future that follows the current crafting system (gathering, refining, crafting) makes sense.
- I like the idea of tying it into the Power recovery system. It should not provide a replacement for taverns/camps. Rather than allowing Power regeneration over time, perhaps a static return of specific amount based on Tier of food (1% of total power, 5%, 10% for Tier 1,2, 3), but only granting it once per day.
- Food emotes as mentioned above with no mechanical benefits could provide flavour and variety to the crafting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could do something similar to DDO
Eating food and drink allows for your power to regen faster, and you could tie this into the Camp/Inn/Tavern/Small Holding system. Essentially, we go to these places, get a small regen on power, and have to eat to really increase that output.
To make things simpler, all buffs from food could be tied into Power, Stamina, and Hit Points. No buff would actually increase your max, just increase your regeneration.
So lets break this down into food groups:
Grains, Fruits, Vegetables, Protein, Dairy
Forester: Grains, Fruits, and Vegetables
- Plant nodes could totally hold these, and they would be dependent upon which Hex Type they were in.
Miner: Spices, like Salt
Junk: Could have lower quality versions, rubbish, and other things that could pass for Grains, Fruits, and Vegetables.
Combat: You could add deer, rabbits, and other animals that not only give protein, but also give spoils and pelt drops.
Farms: You could give the option of a Dairy Farm, as your farm, and it produces slightly less Bulk Food for some dairy.
You could eventually add several gathering skills specifically for food, but this will allow integration directly into the current system.
Apothecary - Could make spices, liquids, and other flavor based items, including protein stocks, vegetable medleys, and lots of other things.
Gemcutter - break/grind the salt and other hard spices
Tanner - Could double down as the butcher
Farmer - Could grind the grains and make cheese
Cooking - and now we have come full circle
This system would allow for integration into our current system. Most of the recipes and drops would be added to existing nodes and refiners, with a change to how farms work, adding a farmer refining skill, and the actually cooking craft skill.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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My 2CP -
XP/performance bonuses for eating/drinking - nay
XP/performance penalties for NOT eating/drinking (for an extended time) - yea
speedier and/or (limited) remote recovery of power by eating/drinking - yea
integration into existing gathering/refining skillset - yea
creation of additional skills/feats to support a cooking system - nay
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...and the new Peter Capaldi Dr Who's favored weapon is a spoon.
SPOILERS!
Well, how the system was in MO (which was a good start but could be tweaked) was you had 'reserves.' You had health, stamina, mana. When you used any of them, they would deplete. Over time your health and stamina would actually decrease if you didn't keep your reserves filled. You would also lose weight and go into different weight classes.
On the other hand, you could fill them and gain stats (up until a certain point when your 'weight class' began to take away from your attributes.)
There were issues... one being that for some reason obese people got huge gains to intelligence. They also ended up with quite a bit of health even though the attribute penalty took away from health. They still had more than anyone else.
Again: some people may oppose the idea of needing to eat because it's 'just another thing to do.' But it allows for another profession, another way to customize your character ( given that they can gain in a similar fashion.)
So you can have a fat dwarf or a skinny elf. The beauty of such a system, to me, is more in its relation to hunger and body change, the food is just how it happens.
Eating foods that give you buffs seems just like normal consumables and pretty boring.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The more complex the better as far as I am concerned. A deep gathering system (farming, gathering, hunting), a robust refining system (preparing raw foods, combining items for ingredients, perhaps with spoilage and preservatives included and a full menu for food items, drinks, and special recipes. Not everyone would enjoy being a farmer, gatherer, or cook, but then not everyone enjoys PvP either, and that is in the game plan. If you are going to do foodstuffs at all, go all out and make the food system as deep as any other crafting system, or more so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Crazy idea what if food rather then camp sites restores power. Better prepared food restores more power. If a pc is out in the woods and needs to regain power they could attempt to hunt and forage for some food or use trail rations prepared at a camp site/small holding/settlement level kitchen for greater benefit. This could be a hell of a dynamic for siege warfare too as the seiger would require a suplly chain to remain effective and the settlement being seiged would only have the food they had stored or smuggled in .
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a most want food.
We are split into two camps: Do you actually need to eat food? and You need to eat food.
Meaning some people want their to be a system in place where you HAVE to eat, some don't want this in place.
I think we are also split on what kinds of buffs/debuffs food provides.
So, we want food/cooking.
If we used the system I suggested, it would at least get us Cooking, which everyone agrees on. That is the first step, and the step that is needed before any other step is really talked about.
Pyronous, with the system I suggested they could easily allow Gathered and Refined goods to be eaten. That way you can forage for food. "Oh, hey look, I just found some raw carrots!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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A fully developed food/cooking AND music system will be a very welcome set of features for many people, and will complement the rest of the existing features nicely.
As most things, the developers can design a full fledge system that ties into all 4 pillars/aspects of the game, and use the full range of skills and make it a vital part of a settlements growth, and implement a basic version during EE and improve it as time goes on.
I would encourage the people in this thread who feel more passionately about these ideas to work together, create a draft outline of the system, and submit these revised ideas on Ideascale (since we know the devs are keeping on eye there). :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tanner - Could double down as the butcher
"This jerky is sure tough"
"I didn't say jerky, I said jerkin. Put keep on chewing, it makes the leather softer"Medieval tanneries were so foul-smelling they were placed outside the towns - I doubt anyone would want meat stored there.
also:
"ooh, a junk node: maybe we'll find something to cook!"
jokes aside: yes, appetizing idea but not vital enough for the first few months.
Not sure about the cooking idea because the "days" in the game go by so fast. You would have to continually stop and eat each "day".
Maybe something that could be added into the taverns though, that might work.
I am for a system where hunger accumulates slowly unless you are doing something intense. So, if you are just sitting in town, you wouldn't have to eat, but if you went on an adventure or if you were fighting a war, you would have to plan your rations or take penalties.
Could become interesting, as well. I mean, there are many places it can be taken if it got more serious. There could be a way to apply pressure on a settlement (by occupying a nearby hex, or whatever) and, thus, increase their hunger gain, and starve them. haha.
I mean, I can see why people wouldn't want those things because they make things more complicated for both the programmers and the players. However, I can't imagine these things would be very hard to implement and each little thing like this that goes into the game, the more 'hardcore' it becomes.
I could rattle off ideas on just the concept of cooking for quite some time, but the main thing I would like to see is it getting in the game, even as a bare bones system, in hope that it will grow into something essential.
A fully developed food/cooking AND music system will be a very welcome set of features for many people, and will complement the rest of the existing features nicely.
As most things, the developers can design a full fledge system that ties into all 4 pillars/aspects of the game, and use the full range of skills and make it a vital part of a settlements growth, and implement a basic version during EE and improve it as time goes on.
I would encourage the people in this thread who feel more passionately about these ideas to work together, create a draft outline of the system, and submit these revised ideas on Ideascale (since we know the devs are keeping on eye there). :)
Double post.
Just saw this. Yeah, I mean, what happened to bards? I am for everything in a game like this. You can't really go wrong. I'd draw the line at having to use the bathroom, but anything up until that is good to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Medieval tanneries were so foul-smelling they were placed outside the towns - I doubt anyone would want meat stored there.
Storing barrels of "aged" urine for bleaching--along with the other organic matter used for tanning--quickly explains some of the early "removal laws", requiring distance from the town. Without knowing about the existence of micro-organisms, one realises they accidentally stumbled upon a vital sanitation measure as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We already have "power" which will force players back to camp/tavern occasionally. Can't remove/bypass that system since by now people have spent good money to buy the permanent and temporary structures that restore power. Don't want to add (imo) an identical parallel system, only restored by food rather than rest.
I think the power system closes some doors when it comes to what food could do in the game. I think power in an abstract way encompasses hunger but I suppose they could maybe be split apart somehow.
Playing versions of the game with more features implemented will perhaps show some gap that a food system can fill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm all for a cooking and eating system that treats food as a necessary fuel instead of a magical boost. We've spoken about this before, many, many months ago.
Ideally, the quality of food you eat, and where you eat it, would be linked to some sort of social mechanic. If Sir Oswald dePosh is seen regularly eating baked potatoes at Ye Olde Spud-u-Like, he'd lose social standing, whereas Arthur the Adventurer's regular visits to the best restaurant in town should benefit him somehow.
Such a mechanic is pie in the sky in an MMORPG, of course (hehe).
So yes, consider this a vote for non-magical food and drink.
I'm also hoping for magical and non-magical potions, of course.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bookmarked for inclusion in the soon to be updated EE FAQ thread; and for new people to add new insight to the topic on hand. :)
Food and ale, a subject dear to every dwarves heart. Going to be keeping an eye on this for future development. Later, will add the Ideascale link (if I can find it).