Throwing Daggers and Two Weapon Fighting

[Dr.FelixUrr]

Hi all,

I have been scouring the web looking for information on Two Weapon Fighting and Throwing Daggers for an upcoming character. This character is by no means "optimized."

I'm new to PF and a quick study but I am left with a lot of questions about how a full action looks like in terms of damage. The following is a sample build:

Human Rogue lvl 6

STR: 16
DEX: 18
CON: 13
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 14

BAB: +6/+1

Feats: Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Deadly Aim, +1 more

My questions are as follows:

1. How many daggers are thrown in a full round attack? I count 3 would be thrown (+6 -2TWF/off-hand +6 -2TWF/quick draw+1)

2. Why do I see a lot of non-fighter throwing weapon builds without a high STR mod. Is there a way to get extra dmg from DEX? (I thought feats like Weapon Finesse only added to your attack roll not dmg)

3. I can go the route of an archer instead of throwing weapons. But there is not STR mod added to dmg except for whatever STR bonus you get to your bow. Is this correct?

4. Although this character is not optimized at all, which would be better in terms of damage, archer or throwing weapons?

Thanks all in advance.

[fretgod99]

1. With Quick Draw, you can throw up to your BAB with daggers, plus the extra one from TWF. So you are correct that it would be 3 (4 if you got ITWF).
2. You wouldn't be able to get DEX to damage with a thrown weapon, so far as I'm aware. You're correct that weapon finesse only adds to your attack roll, which doesn't help you since that already happens when making a ranged attack, anyway.
3. There is an ability, Adaptive, that can be added to bows. That changes the STR modifier on a bow to match yours (or you can lower it if you'd like). It only costs $1,000, so it's a great one to get since it doesn't count as an enchantment-equivalent bonus.
4. Generally speaking, Archery >. That being said, play the build you want to play. If you like the idea of throwing, then stick with throwing.

[Jeff Merola]

As far as I'm aware, thrown weapon builds generally try to get their damage from something other than strength to avoid requiring a high Dexterity AND a high Strength.

Now, there's a way to focus Strength AND still use throwing weapons. The Belt of Mighty Hurling lets you use Strength instead of Dexterity on thrown weapon attack rolls.

[Zwordsman]

How do you have bAB 6 at rogue lv 6? Aren't they 3/4th class? I don't think they have Bab 6 until lv 8.
So 1 attack from BAB, 1 attack from Two weapon fighting. if your using daggers both only have -2 to hit.

2) Yeah, if you enchant the weapon you can get Agile weapon property on it which exchange dex for str in terms of damage. Though most builds don't have a whole lot of stats, so they focus on dex and skill poits or life over more damage.
3) Yeah only compbound bows give you str to damage in terms of bows.

4) Archery is almost always better. You can just fire way more arrows in a round than you can with a thrown item, and at much futher range.

THrowing: rapid shot two weapon fighting, improved and greater TWF. That'll net you 4 extra attacks but you get some serious serious -to hit with that line. (something like -2 on all main hand BAB based attacks, -2 on the first off hand, -5 on the second and -10 on the last. You'll have a hard time hitting with these, especially as a 3/4bab class. Thrown items have way less range (daggers have something like 10ft, chakram have 30ft) so you are far more likely to be attacked in close range, and far more likely to get ranged penalties for tossing past the first increment. Lastly, you have to carry enough daggers to throw often; or have a way to bring them back. There is returning enchantment but it's expensive and not that useful because itcomes at the end of your round and you must have enough hands to catch it. Blinkback belt is fairly cheap and is a good thing for this kind abiuld.

bow (and to a less extent xbow but bows are mechanically stronger)
rapid fire, many shots, I think there might be another feat..
with this you take something like -2? to all attacks, but you fire 3 extra on a full attack. but you can do it from like 100ft or more. The first range increment is pretty far so you'll less likely to eat ranged minuses.
So while yo uhave 1 less attack you are far far more likely to be able to hit, and far more likely to be in a situation to full attack fro mfar away. Lastly is you can carry many arrows very easily.

Note: i believe there is a magic enchantment that supplements compound bows but I don't know much about it. I build almost soley throw and xbow builds.

[Rhatahema]

A distinction I missed for a long time is that there are two types of thrown weapons; melee weapons that can be thrown, and ranged weapons that are thrown. Which depends on where its listed on the weapons table. This can be important. For instance, a dagger isn't a ranged weapon, so you won't be able to benefit from abilities that specify "ranged weapons", including rapid shot (as zwordsman suggested) and many weapon enhancements. On the plus side, this distinction is why they benefit from the agile enhancement even while thrown. They're still a ranged attack when thrown though, so most options/benefits/penalties still apply.

Since it might come up, most ranged weapons that are thrown can also be used in melee, though usually less effectively, as specified in their description. Their classification as light or one-handed for the purpose of TWF is actually listed in the TWF section of the combat rules, oddly. Some newer published weapons lack this information.

4. I think that thrown weapons have some unique advantages. Concerning sneak attack, The knife master ups your SA damage with knives to d8s. Being able to switch between melee and ranged is fairly useful, and gives you more opportunities to sneak attack, such as flanking or the scout archetype's charge. You're not completely shut down by wind wall/fickle winds. With an agile weapon or a belt of mighty hurling, you're singularly dependent on Dex or Str, rather than dividing resources between both. So I'd say it's worthwhile.

[blackbloodtroll]

A Dagger is a Ranged weapon, and a Melee weapon.

You can enchant a Dagger with the Distance property.

If they were not, then Precise Shot would not work with Daggers.

[Zwordsman]

Edit:
BBT totally ninja'd me while I flailed around trying to figure out how to express myself and it became a paragraph. I'mma spoiler it for the pointlessness of it haha

TLDR (too long didn't read) version down below.

long version:

I'm pretty certain that when Thrown a dagger (and any melee weapon with a range increment on it) counts as a ranged weapon. It can be a ranged weapon but not a projectile. Thats why Rapid shot would work because it's a ranged weapon at the time. and why more than a few ranged centric feats specify Projectiles or bolt and arrow in their wording; since thrown weapons are not projectiles in Pathfinder (see enlarge and reduce person spells).
The range increment is only on weapons that are also classified as ranged weapons.
You can infact enchant a dagger with "ranged weapon qualities" such as returning and seeking and distance; but they offer you no help when you use it in melee so not the best investment for some characters. There are melee weapon enchantments that specify melee attack rolls. This distinction is why the Throwing enchantment exists-in order to throw without a penalty because it wasn't a ranged weapon prior to the enchantment. Do note: that there is only one enchantment set on a weapon. As far as I know; you can not enchant the ranged side and the melee side seperately .That is why daggers and the few other things are the only ranged weapons you can put agile on.
A melee weapon that has no range increment can be thrown as a ranged attack but will not be a ranged weapon; just a ranged attack roll. Those you could not rapid shot with.
Then there are ranged weapons you could melee with. Those typically have minuses to work in melee; but because they were made for throwing only their cost is much less.
Thats why anything with melee and ranged ability has much lower damage dice, because it can benefit in weird ways, such as the agile and rapid shot. and pure melee and pure thrown have larger damage dice.

At least thats how the groups and gm's I've played withand the a characters I've seen read it.

TLDR:

Daggers do count as melee weapon and ranged weapon; it has a ranged increment, and they can be enchanted with both properties. A melee weapon can be thrown via a ranged attack but does not become a ranged weapon (as you mentioned). Similarly a ranged weapon such as chakram and arrows can be used in melee but can not be enchanted as a melee because it isn't.
Weapons like daggers, and throwing Axes are the few inbetweens that count as both innately.

Though anyone with a good argument otherwise feel free. It would be an interesting distinction; though I don't see any benefits of it sadly though it would make some of premade characters have to be re built.

Speaking of Enchantments. For this kind of build, that involves throwing a lot of daggers. I favor a +1 Agile Wounding dagger. But I favor it because : the bleed can get pretty decent for things that do bleed; especially if you have a blink back belt and TWF/quickdraw (throwing the same 2 daggers over and over). Agile is for damage. Realistically, even with sneak attack (which you probably won't be getting off this way very often) you won't be the damage power house, but with agile and wounding you can keep damage going always. Bleeding on a mage will either bleed them down slowly while making their casting harder, or make them stop their bleeding with an action or make their healer use a healing (which they might not have done otherwise). So it builds up.

4) Yup sneak attack requires you be within 30ft which is def throwing range. If you do get the scout archetype, you could get Charging Hurler feat line as well. If you ended up wanting to always do the moving throwing once a round for sneak attack, you could pick up two handed thrower feat, and the hurling belt to go all str either throwing daggers, or something bigger.

I would likely stick with scout (knife master if it stacks; and you can deal with loss of the class effects from both archetypes) and go with charging hurler and later normal hurling. The problem with that of course is your very limited in how much you can attack in one round if your always required to move. So choice is yours in that case.

But! as you specified TWF and Rogue, is the rogue class set? Otherwise you can pull this idea off much better in the form of a Slayer or Swashbuckler.

Edit2: Oh. So I don't know much about this but look up perfect style, and the air school... Hopefully someone who knows more can come by but I think that it lets you full attack with thrown and move. (assuming it does like I thought it does) you could in theory combine with TWF and Scout archetype to move 10ft to gain sneak attack damage while throwing your knives.

[Dr.FelixUrr]

Zwordsman wrote:

How do you have bAB 6 at rogue lv 6? Aren't they 3/4th class? I don't think they have Bab 6 until lv 8.

You found me out. I goofed and meant to use level 8 instead of 6. Thanks for catching that.

fretgod99 wrote:

1. With Quick Draw, you can throw up to your BAB with daggers, plus the extra one from TWF. So you are correct that it would be 3 (4 if you got ITWF).

2. You wouldn't be able to get DEX to damage with a thrown weapon, so far as I'm aware. You're correct that weapon finesse only adds to your attack roll, which doesn't help you since that already happens when making a ranged attack, anyway.
3. There is an ability, Adaptive, that can be added to bows. That changes the STR modifier on a bow to match yours (or you can lower it if you'd like). It only costs $1,000, so it's a great one to get since it doesn't count as an enchantment-equivalent bonus.
4. Generally speaking, Archery >. That being said, play the build you want to play. If you like the idea of throwing, then stick with throwing.

Thanks for the clarification fretgod99. I agree on point #4. My intent with that question was to foresee any unforeseeable problems with either weapon. I'm starting to see that my throwing dagger build is a bit of a switch hitter and that is starting to require more feats than I was hoping to spend on it. I'm now starting to consider using a bow.

Another reason why I don't think I can carry out my throwing dagger build is that my GM is only allowing CRB and the APG. So that means no agile enchantments and no blinkback belts.

From everything that I've read, throwing weapon builds really don't get much love and I'm starting to see why. I'll have to talk to my GM about maybe allowing a few enchantments or items from outside of the two rulebooks. Wish me luck!

[Mike Franke]

Knife master and scout are good. Precise shot is necessary. The trait river rat can up your damage a little. I would go with rapid shot over two weapon fighting especially at low levels. Blink Back Belt allows you to enchant 1 weapon instead of needing dozens of daggers.

You have to work hard to make a throwing build competitive but I have had a lot of fun playing mine. I went the weapon master fighter route with a dip into knife master and scout rogue as the build is really feat intensive so you need those fighter feats plus weapon specialization and weapon training help make up the damage difference for using a low damage weapon.

[Rhatahema]

PRD, Weapons wrote:

Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons include thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

That's where I'm reading the distinction, in addition to their placement on the weapons table. By definition, a thrown weapon that's "effective in melee" (presumably indicated by its classification as a melee weapon) is not a ranged weapon, by my read.

If a thrown dagger can't benefit from precise shot because it's not a ranged weapon, that wouldn't be a problem because the penalty for firing into melee only applies to ranged weapons.

I did find this sentence in the magic weapons section: "Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks." So that supports your argument. Any other rules you can quote? The returning property is listed under "ranged weapon special abilities", and there are certainly returning daggers out there, but the only limit placed by the description is "This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown". So it's not the best example.

I might be reading too much into it or missing something. Rules language isn't always used consistently, so it's difficult to gauge intent (which might have even varied between authors). I'd certainly prefer for thrown daggers to qualify as ranged weapons.

[Michael Sayre]

Just a bit of advice, I'd drop Deadly Aim from your current line-up of feats. You're already taking TWF penalties with the dagger and your 3/4 BAB just isn't going to support that many penalties. Consider taking Precise Shot and Point Blank Shot instead, and think about putting a Rogue Talent towards Minor Magic and using Arcane Strike for your extra damage.

[Gwen Smith]

(For some reason, parenthesis turn into hash marks...)

Rhatahema wrote:

PRD, Weapons wrote:

Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons include thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

That's where I'm reading the distinction, in addition to their placement on the weapons table. By definition, a thrown weapon that's "effective in melee" (presumably indicated by its classification as a melee weapon) is not a ranged weapon, by my read.

Why are you reading the relative clause as applying to both nouns? Generally, a relative clause refers to the closest noun, so parsing the sentence would get you:

Grammar wrote:

Ranged weapons include thrown weapons

Ranged weapons include projectile weapons
Projectile weapons are not effective in melee

If we look at the context of the sentence, we see that they are drawing a distinction between two groups (melee and ranged) and that one subset (thrown) belongs to both groups:

PRD (emphasis mine) wrote:

Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons include thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

If you parse the whole paragraph, you get:

Grammar wrote:

Melee weapons are effective in melee

Some melee weapons can be thrown

Ranged weapons include thrown weapons
Ranged weapons include projectile weapons
projectile weapons are not effective in melee

In context, it seems pretty clear to me. However, even out of context, it's a big stretch difficult to apply the relative clause to both nouns here, especially since all the writer had to do was leave out the first noun to make it clear.

Hypothetical wording:

Quote:

Ranged weapons include thrown or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

Here, "thrown" and "projectile" both modify the same noun, and that noun is also modified by the relative clause. So parsing this sentence gets you:

Grammar wrote:

Ranged weapons include thrown weapons

Ranged weapons include projectile weapons
Ranged weapons are not effective in melee

But they didn't do that. They included the first "weapons" after "thrown", which leaves "thrown weapons" abandoned on the other side of the conjunction from the relative clause.

Rhatahema wrote:

If a thrown dagger can't benefit from precise shot because it's not a ranged weapon, that wouldn't be a problem because the penalty for firing into melee only applies to ranged weapons.

If everybody ruled this way, I'd probably be OK with saying that "thrown weapons aren't ranged". Sadly, I have never, ever seen a GM rule this way, ever.

Rhatahema wrote:

I did find this sentence in the magic weapons section: "Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks." So that supports your argument. Any other rules you can quote? The returning property is listed under "ranged weapon special abilities", and there are certainly returning daggers out there, but the only limit placed by the description is "This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown". So it's not the best example.

In Ultimate Equipment, the weapons table includes a column called "Range":

Weapon qualities wrote:

Range: Any attack at more than this distance is penalized for range. Beyond this range, the attack takes a cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment (or fraction thereof) of distance to the target. For example, a dagger (with a range of 10 feet) thrown at a target that is 25 feet away would incur a –4 penalty. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot up to 10 range increments.

And a bit earlier, it says

Melee and ranged weapons wrote:

It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on the following weapon tables)...

So any weapon in the Melee Weapons tables that has a numeric entry in the "Range" column is designed to be thrown. Clearly, these are weapons that are effective in melee and are also effective as thrown weapons. If "cannot be used effectively in melee" is an intrinsic part of the definition of "ranged weapon", then there would be no "Range" column on the Melee Weapons tables.

Also, some of the thrown weapons in the Ranged Weapons table include notes about what happens if you wield them in melee:

Weapon descriptions wrote:

You can wield the chakram as a melee weapon, but it is not designed for such use; you take a –1 penalty on your attack roll with the weapon and must succeed at a DC 15 Reflex save or cut yourself on the blade (half damage, no Strength modifier). You do not need to make this save if wearing heavy armor.

...
(Hunga munga) Also called a mambele, danisco, goleyo, njiga, or any of many lesser-known names, this three-bladed dagger is intended for throwing but can be used as a melee weapon.
...
A javelin is a thin throwing spear . Since it is not designed for melee, you are treated as nonproficient with it and take a –4 penalty on attack rolls if you use a javelin as a melee weapon.

Note that bows, crossbows, and firearms do not have these types of notes. That becomes especially interesting when you look at the description of the bayonet:

Weapon descriptions wrote:

Bayonets are close combat weapons designed to fit into the grooves or muzzles of crossbows and firearms. They allow you to make melee attacks with these weapons but render them temporarily useless as ranged weapons. Attaching or removing a bayonet is a move action.

Now, what do bows, crossbows, and firearms have in common that makes them different from chakrams, javelins, and hunga mungas?

They are all "projectile weapons that are not effective in melee."

[Rhatahema]

@Gwen Smith: Why are you ignoring the word "that"? I think your read should be

Quote:

Ranged weapons include thrown weapons

Ranged weapons include projectile weapons that are not effective in melee

Aside from that, I never said that line indicates ranged thrown weapons cannot be used in melee, only that they're "not effective". Which I saw expressed in the various penalties you receive for wielding those weapons in melee (as you listed). On the other hand, there's a projectile weapon that is effective in melee (halfling sling staff) and a ranged thrown weapon that's equally effective in melee (hunga munga), so I guess that line about effectiveness doesn't serve much point however you look at it.

Anyway, I don't think my read is nonsense, but I'm persuaded it may be wrong. Where I'm uncertain is the difference between how a weapon is used and what a weapons is, which you see contradictory rules logic applied to in the FAQs on lances and bastard swords. But if there's a consensus that melee weapons are ranged weapons when thrown, then I'll let it rest. I agree that the rules should be that way, anyway.

[Gwen Smith]

Rhatahema wrote:

@Gwen Smith: Why are you ignoring the word "that"? I think your read should be

Quote:

Ranged weapons include thrown weapons

Ranged weapons include projectile weapons that are not effective in melee

I'm not ignoring "that"--I simply replaced the relative pronoun with the noun it refers to: "projectile weapons".

It's hard to show a full diagram of a sentence in ASCII, but this is the basic concept: when parsing a sentence, you need to split it into the individual clauses and phrases. Basically, you break it down to the individual thoughts and figure out how they fit together.

The sentence consists of two separate thoughts. It has an independent clause with a compound direct object ("Ranged weapons include throw weapons or projectile weapons"), and it has a dependent clause introduced with the relative pronoun "that" ("that are not effective in melee"). By default, all pronouns refer to the closest noun, so you can replace the relative pronoun with the closest noun ("Projectile weapons are not effective in melee").

Rhatahema wrote:

Aside from that, I never said that line indicates ranged thrown weapons cannot be used in melee, only that they're "not effective". Which I saw expressed in the various penalties you receive for wielding those weapons in melee (as you listed).

But you ignored the much more common phenomenon: all the melee weapons with numerical values in the "Range" column--and the very existence of the "Range" column in the melee weapons table. That's the most compelling evidence.

Rhatahema wrote:

Anyway, I don't think my read is nonsense, but I'm persuaded it may be wrong. Where I'm uncertain is the difference between how a weapon is used and what a weapons is, which you see contradictory rules logic applied to in the FAQs on lances and bastard swords. But if there's a consensus that melee weapons are ranged weapons when thrown, then I'll let it rest. I agree that the rules should be that way, anyway.

I didn't say your read was nonsense, and I apologize if it came out that way.

As far as the distinction between what a weapon is and how it's used, think of it as a Venn diagram. There are ranged weapons and melee weapons, and there are some weapons that fall into both categories (where the categories overlap). For those weapons that are "switch hitters", you use the rules based on how the weapon is used.