Like the title says, I'm trying to find a good use for a shaman. Specifically there usefulness over a Witch. I don't really get their roles in and out of combat, so if someone could enlighten me, that'd be great.
Thanks.
They're pretty much a Divine Witch. Cast a spell here and there while supplicating in between with hexes.
They also get some solid battlefield control from the Druid and some neat blasty spells. Oh and they maintain most of the good Cleric Remove Blank spells so they're pretty solid for leaving slots open.
I like the Possessed Shaman archetype. Makes for a very skillful full caster.
Shaman is a very potent class that has a pretty amazing chassis. Compared to the Witch, it has a bigger HD, a higher BAB, more spells (thanks to its Spirit Magic), access to the whole arcane list (thanks to Wandering Hex), and the ability to loot all the solid Witch Hexes. It even has a higher base skill points (though the Witch will have more thanks to being INT focused). Not going to lie, it's my new favorite class. Though at least some of that may be my complete aversion to the PF Cleric.
Really, you can do a lot with Shaman.
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I think Shaman is more comparable to the Oracle than it is to the Witch, simply because it has a very similar level of versatility.
Comparing to the Witch is almost apples and oranges. They share powers that happen to be called "Hexes" (which work somewhat differently from each other) and cast spells (somewhat different types) - that's about it.
I am currently experimenting with a Speaker of the Past Shaman, and I have to admit, it really is satisfying. I think the thing you have to understand is that while it is tempting to make most divine casters into some sort of battle cleric, the shaman (in my opinion) is a little different.
For starters, when it comes to hexes, I wouldn't play a shaman in the same way I would a witch. For example, where a witch can excel at de-buffing and such, I believe a shaman excels at versatility and support. Hexes such as tongues, disguise, flight, feral speech, and healing really make the shaman a great out of combat skill monkey (the spell list can also help with this as well).
In addition, having access to revelations from both the ancestor and time mysteries is EXTREMELY useful. Things such as Time hope, Phantom Touch, Rewind Time, and even Spirit Shield all just add a lot of fun goodies to what the Shaman can do.
Now yes, I imagine u CAN play a battle cleric if you really wanted to, but for me, I find that a support Shaman (or healer) is probably the way to go. Their spell list is kinda limiting in some regards (at least when compared to the oracle or cleric), but if u mostly focus healing/buffing the party you should be pretty good.
I personally enjoy the life spirit the most, which gives me access to the life link hex (which is very useful for keeping party members alive). Plus, the spell list is pretty good for the most part, and the abilities u gain are are very useful (channel energy as a swift action for the win).
I think Shaman is more comparable to the Oracle than it is to the Witch, simply because it has a very similar level of versatility.
Prepared casting vs Spontaneous is a world of difference in versatility.
Shaman is a very potent class that has a pretty amazing chassis. ... Not going to lie, it's my new favorite class.
Unfortunately with praise like this, given Anzyr's implied extremely high powered play style from prior threads, this invokes an almost automatic ban of the class at my table.
I'm going to do more research into the class details, but this makes me not allow it by default.
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Knee jerk banning, got to love it, seriously, review and ban what ya like, honestly blood money shenanigans is all I worry about in my game, maybe my players are different, who knows YMMV
One other thing, if the Shaman scares you, the arcanist will make you run, and I believe it is the best new player arcane their is firmly a tad below the base wizard.
Knee jerk banning, got to love it, seriously, review and ban what ya like, honestly blood money shenanigans is all I worry about in my game, maybe my players are different, who knows YMMV
Yes, prohibiting something that seems dubious until researched in more detail is definitely 'Knee-Jerking'. It would be so much better to allow a player to take the class, then yank it away from them after a few sessions of play.
I'll explain a few of the spirits. Life is not as good as has been advertised. Life Link only affects dying characters so they are stabilized at a distance with a bit of health to get them closer to zero. Channels require you to be heavily invested in Charisma to get any use, and that causes MAD issues that I thought we had brought up to the devs during the second round of playtesting. Spirit magic is fair, since it is a copy/paste of the Life Oracle's mystery spells.
Heavens Spirit has a solid list of spirit magic (due to copy/pasta of Heavens Oracle Mystery spells), but there's only one genuinely must have hex for it. That's Heaven's Leap by the way, and you would most likely have that either at 2nd level by mainlining that spirit or at the first chance for Wandering Hex.
Lore Spirit is the other MAD spirit, as the most notable hex requires all three mental stats to have positive values for optimum effect. That's just so you can add Sorc/Wiz spells to your Shaman spell list. The spirit magic list is lackluster due to the same reasons the Heavens list is so good. There is another decent hex that lets you use Wis instead of Int for your knowledge checks, but the others aren't that good.
Battle Spirit may be the second best spirit for a Shaman to mainline if they aren't going for a specific archetype. Spirit magic provides a lot of combat utility, which given previous statements isn't that surprising. There's a couple of decent hexes that work if you want to be a more melee Shaman, as well as some debuffs to throw. And the spirit abilities aren't too shabby either.
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Shamans UGGHHH What are they good for? Absolutely Nothing.
So far, the consensus is that Heaven spirit is the best with Battle as the second best. Wind is oddly the number 3 from what I've gathered, but that's more because the Shaman spell list has more spells you can critically hit with for the stagger effect of one hex. Nature is probably the fourth best due to spontaneously converting prepped spells for Summon Nature's Ally, being difficult to kill without save or suck, and eventually turning your familiar into Battle-Cat.
Stone is actually pretty good because it also gives you DR/Adamantine. That puts it clearly above Bones, which gives DR/Magic. Flame isn't too bad with the exception of the cold vulnerability for your spirit familiar. I kinda like Waves a bit because it has some repulsion tricks and a synergy with other spirits that is fairly unique.
Shamans UGGHHH What are they good for? Absolutely Nothing.Omg, I almost called this thread that, but then I thought maybe would think I'm dissing the shaman, and I don't want to be public enemy #1
I actually like the Shaman quite a bit...but your title was close enough that I got the song stuck in my head and felt I had to share.
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I actually like the Shaman quite a bit...but your title was close enough that I got the song stuck in my head and felt I had to share.Shamans UGGHHH What are they good for? Absolutely Nothing.Omg, I almost called this thread that, but then I thought maybe would think I'm dissing the shaman, and I don't want to be public enemy #1
Does everyone have this song stuck in their head?
This is not the first thread with this song reference.
Instead, enjoy this nugget, from Erasure:
Always, I wanna be with you
And make believe with you
And live in harmony, harmony, oh love!
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So far, the consensus is that Heaven spirit is the best with Battle as the second best. Wind is oddly the number 3 from what I've gathered, but that's more because the Shaman spell list has more spells you can critically hit with for the stagger effect of one hex. Nature is probably the fourth best due to spontaneously converting prepped spells for Summon Nature's Ally, being difficult to kill without save or suck, and eventually turning your familiar into Battle-Cat.
Stone is actually pretty good because it also gives you DR/Adamantine. That puts it clearly above Bones, which gives DR/Magic. Flame isn't too bad with the exception of the cold vulnerability for your spirit familiar. I kinda like Waves a bit because it has some repulsion tricks and a synergy with other spirits that is fairly unique.
Ok, thanks for the help!
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So far, the consensus is that Heaven spirit is the best with Battle as the second best. Wind is oddly the number 3 from what I've gathered, but that's more because the Shaman spell list has more spells you can critically hit with for the stagger effect of one hex. Nature is probably the fourth best due to spontaneously converting prepped spells for Summon Nature's Ally, being difficult to kill without save or suck, and eventually turning your familiar into Battle-Cat.
Stone is actually pretty good because it also gives you DR/Adamantine. That puts it clearly above Bones, which gives DR/Magic. Flame isn't too bad with the exception of the cold vulnerability for your spirit familiar. I kinda like Waves a bit because it has some repulsion tricks and a synergy with other spirits that is fairly unique.
Am I the only one who thinks Air Barrier from the Wind Hex is amazing? Decent enough armor bonus that levels as you go, duration in hours per level and all (most?) ranged attacks have 50% chance of missing? And no Armor Penalty? I can't ditch my cleric armor fast enough! Sign me up for that religion. (I really, REALLY hate Armor Penalties.)
Shamans can do a lot (what full divine caster doesn't?) I'm actually going to get around to a guide for them once this investigator guide is done. Looking over the shaman it's got a good solid list of things it can do and I'm currently playing two.
My favorite spirit is Waves combined with the spell Snowball, because trolling a large mob with a stagger + knock down combo makes me laugh.
Too bad there's no hex called Colors of the Wind.
I'll explain a few of the spirits. Life is not as good as has been advertised. Life Link only affects dying characters so they are stabilized at a distance with a bit of health to get them closer to zero. Channels require you to be heavily invested in Charisma to get any use, and that causes MAD issues that I thought we had brought up to the devs during the second round of playtesting. Spirit magic is fair, since it is a copy/paste of the Life Oracle's mystery spells.
Heavens Spirit has a solid list of spirit magic (due to copy/pasta of Heavens Oracle Mystery spells), but there's only one genuinely must have hex for it. That's Heaven's Leap by the way, and you would most likely have that either at 2nd level by mainlining that spirit or at the first chance for Wandering Hex.
Lore Spirit is the other MAD spirit, as the most notable hex requires all three mental stats to have positive values for optimum effect. That's just so you can add Sorc/Wiz spells to your Shaman spell list. The spirit magic list is lackluster due to the same reasons the Heavens list is so good. There is another decent hex that lets you use Wis instead of Int for your knowledge checks, but the others aren't that good.
Battle Spirit may be the second best spirit for a Shaman to mainline if they aren't going for a specific archetype. Spirit magic provides a lot of combat utility, which given previous statements isn't that surprising. There's a couple of decent hexes that work if you want to be a more melee Shaman, as well as some debuffs to throw. And the spirit abilities aren't too shabby either.
Well, for starters, there is actually some debate regarding what the 'life link' hex for the shaman actually does.
For more information, click HERE
Now, my own interpretation is that it is suppose to function exactly like the oracle 'life link' revelation (I mean, seriously...it's almost exactly the same word for word).
Also, as far as MAD issues, I really don't see it. After all, investing in both Wisdom and Charisma really isn't that hard (and again, keep in mind that I'm not encouraging players to use a shaman as a battle oracle, but more like a supporter/skill monkey). My current Shaman is basically a healing and casting machine, using a few offensive spells and focusing mostly in wisdom, charisma, dex, and a little bit of con.
Having a few hexes like slumber, or using the new stricken heart spell, u really can provide a lot of useful skills in combat, while still maintaining a lot of versatility outside of it.
Now then, as for the Heaven's spirit, I think it all comes down to a matter of tastes. Phantasmagoric Display and Stardust are kind of lackluster in my opinion, and Void Adaptation is alright, but easily supplemented with spells. The capstone is good, but I think the spell list is kinda lacking.
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Hmm.. seems to be a lot of conflicting ideas. Honestly, I really hope that somebody builds a shaman guide soon, because it's so much easier to build a good character from one of the "older" classes, just because they have guides.
Or, OR, maybe you can just dive in and try it out yourself! :D Rather than wait for all the new and exciting to be cut away in favor of boring cookie cutter builds. Because honestly, nothing grinds my gears more than when I sit down to a PFS table and players start telling someone "Oh, you shouldn't use X, you should have taken Y instead. X isn't optimized."
I'll explain a few of the spirits. Life is not as good as has been advertised. Life Link only affects dying characters so they are stabilized at a distance with a bit of health to get them closer to zero. Channels require you to be heavily invested in Charisma to get any use, and that causes MAD issues that I thought we had brought up to the devs during the second round of playtesting. Spirit magic is fair, since it is a copy/paste of the Life Oracle's mystery spells.
Heavens Spirit has a solid list of spirit magic (due to copy/pasta of Heavens Oracle Mystery spells), but there's only one genuinely must have hex for it. That's Heaven's Leap by the way, and you would most likely have that either at 2nd level by mainlining that spirit or at the first chance for Wandering Hex.
Lore Spirit is the other MAD spirit, as the most notable hex requires all three mental stats to have positive values for optimum effect. That's just so you can add Sorc/Wiz spells to your Shaman spell list. The spirit magic list is lackluster due to the same reasons the Heavens list is so good. There is another decent hex that lets you use Wis instead of Int for your knowledge checks, but the others aren't that good.
Battle Spirit may be the second best spirit for a Shaman to mainline if they aren't going for a specific archetype. Spirit magic provides a lot of combat utility, which given previous statements isn't that surprising. There's a couple of decent hexes that work if you want to be a more melee Shaman, as well as some debuffs to throw. And the spirit abilities aren't too shabby either.
Well, for starters, there is actually some debate regarding what the 'life link' hex for the shaman actually does.
For more information, click HERE
Now, my own interpretation is that it is suppose to function exactly like the oracle 'life link' revelation (I mean, seriously...it's almost exactly the same word for word).
Also, as far as...
I think we've read the Heavens Shaman's abilities differently. Stardust works like faerie fire one of the best level 1 druid spells (so long concealment). Void Adaptation is absolute home run you can see even in deeper darkness, you don't breath making you immune to the likes of cloud kill and drowning and for a kicker you get endure elements at all times. Phantasmagoric Display give's you two sweet bonus sor/wiz spells Prismatic Wall (Level 8 spell) and Prismatic Spray (Level 7).
To the original poster the Shaman's appeal is playing the divine roll while using spirits/wandering spirits making them extremely versatile. Combine Battle/Life for melee, Fire/Lore for blasting, Heavens/Wind for control etc.
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Hmm.. seems to be a lot of conflicting ideas. Honestly, I really hope that somebody builds a shaman guide soon, because it's so much easier to build a good character from one of the "older" classes, just because they have guides.Or, OR, maybe you can just dive in and try it out yourself! :D Rather than wait for all the new and exciting to be cut away in favor of boring cookie cutter builds. Because honestly, nothing grinds my gears more than when I sit down to a PFS table and players start telling someone "Oh, you shouldn't use X, you should have taken Y instead. X isn't optimized."
You know what, you're so right. I'm gonna put something together, then I'm going to experiment until it works!
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Am I the only one who thinks Air Barrier from the Wind Hex is amazing? Decent enough armor bonus that levels as you go, duration in hours per level and all (most?) ranged attacks have 50% chance of missing? And no Armor Penalty? I can't ditch my cleric armor fast enough! Sign me up for that religion. (I really, REALLY hate Armor Penalties.)
You're not the only one anymore! Thanks for pointing this out. I would imagine that it is good for a shaman, but it would be incredibly good for a Spirit Whisperer Wizard.
It starts off basically the same as a free mage armor spell, but eventually increases to a +12 armor bonus! And that miss penalty even includes rays! All with no arcane spell failure chance! Unbelievable!
I'm so happy that I can't stop using exclamation points!
Am I the only one who thinks Air Barrier from the Wind Hex is amazing? Decent enough armor bonus that levels as you go, duration in hours per level and all (most?) ranged attacks have 50% chance of missing? And no Armor Penalty? I can't ditch my cleric armor fast enough! Sign me up for that religion. (I really, REALLY hate Armor Penalties.)You're not the only one anymore! Thanks for pointing this out. I would imagine that it is good for a shaman, but it would be incredibly good for a Spirit Whisperer Wizard.
It starts off basically the same as a free mage armor spell, but eventually increases to a +12 armor bonus! And that miss penalty even includes rays! All with no arcane spell failure chance! Unbelievable!
I'm so happy that I can't stop using exclamation points!
It's actually even better than that, it's uncapped so depending on your table/gm you can power it even higher with coven shenanigans. I'm using it to power up my cohort in a wrath game. I'm maining a witch with a shaman cohort in a WotR game that both have coven so with the marshal adding talent I'm adding +6 to her caster/shaman level. It's a nice boost to keep her alive.
The possessed shaman can choose skills to be wis based. If choosing dex or strength based skills they should no longer suffer armor check penalty.
I opened a thread in the rules board about this but as I see it, it should work.