Multiple natural attacks example: Claw, Bite
Full attack: All at 1x Str bonus
Single natural attack example: Only Bite
Need clarification if it is possible to get iterative attacks if you only have a single natural weapon. (From high BAB)
If a natural attack is used in combination with manufactured weapons it always counts as secondary, so half strength and at -5 to hit unless you have Multiattack.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Core Rulebook, pg. 182
(PRD Link: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html partway down the page).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Only one correction trekkie: you never normally get iterative attacks with a natural attack. It doesn't matter if your BAB is +6 or +20 you still only get one attack.
If you are making an attack with a weapon then you obviously have more than one type of attack, so that rules out the Str X 1.5 right there.
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If you are making an attack with a weapon then you obviously have more than one type of attack, so that rules out the Str X 1.5 right there.
Yes, but I don't think it does by what you are inferring here... If you make an attack with a manufactured weapon (or UAS), ALL of your natural attacks automatically become secondary (BAB -5 to hit & 0.5 STR Mod to damage).
" This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. "
This part of the rules is referring to (as an example) "Claws". A creature with a pair of claws doesn't get to add 1.5 STR mod to damage if it makes a standard action claw attack or AoO with a claw.
Whereas a humanoid with a bite attack wielding a polearm would get 1.5x STR mod to damage if they made a standard action bite attack or an AoO with their bite... But if they made a full-attack with their polearm and then took a 5' step adjacent to their target and bit it, their bite becomes secondary (BAB-5 & 1/2 STR mod damage)
"Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. "-PRD
Furthermore in the OP it is quoted that if someone/thing has both natural attacks and a manufactured wpn to attack with, all natural attacks are secondary.
Secondary attacks never get the 1.5 Str DMG and full BAB unless specified otherwise.
If a creature only has a hoof attack(no other natural or manufactured wpn attacks), once or several times in a FA., it is a primary attack.
That was the question right?
If you are making an attack with a weapon then you obviously have more than one type of attack, so that rules out the Str X 1.5 right there.Yes, but I don't think it does by what you are inferring here... If you make an attack with a manufactured weapon (or UAS), ALL of your natural attacks automatically become secondary (BAB -5 to hit & 0.5 STR Mod to damage).
" This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. "
This part of the rules is referring to (as an example) "Claws". A creature with a pair of claws doesn't get to add 1.5 STR mod to damage if it makes a standard action claw attack or AoO with a claw.
Whereas a humanoid with a bite attack wielding a polearm would get 1.5x STR mod to damage if they made a standard action bite attack or an AoO with their bite... But if they made a full-attack with their polearm and then took a 5' step adjacent to their target and bit it, their bite becomes secondary (BAB-5 & 1/2 STR mod damage)
No, a humanoid is capable of making weapon attacks, and thus has other attack options than his bite. So no 1.5 Str. 1.5 Str is relegated to critters that can ONLY make 1 attack (barring special rules like dragons). You quoted the relevant section "This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one."
Read natural attacks in the core rule book.
"You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus."
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.Then please explain the bolded section to me, because I don't see any language in the natural attack, or attack bonus (see quote below) language which prevents it.
A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combination's thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack.
Hooves. Normally a secondary attack, but when it is the only type of attack it is primary. And hooves usually come in pairs. Tentacles can also fall into this category.
Read natural attacks in the core rule book.
"You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus."That it does! Trust not in internet sources...
@Maezer - ty, that makes sense now.
Lol i looked there first as was like "ill be damned...wait someyhings missing". So no worries, it happens to us all.
The "only one attack" rule doesn't account for the ability to make attacks with manufactured weapons. It only references natural weapons. But the rule about combining manufactured and natural weapons overrides the sole natural attack rule, so there are no issues here.
The "only one attack" rule doesn't account for the ability to make attacks with manufactured weapons. It only references natural weapons. But the rule about combining manufactured and natural weapons overrides the sole natural attack rule, so there are no issues here.
Actually it does. That is why orc/half-orc, tengu, and Barbarian rage power bites and gores do not specify 1.5 str. They are (usually) the only natural attack the character has. But the character can make other attacks, namely manufactured weapon attacks.
If Timmy the Tengu is armed with a club he gets 1.0 Str with his bite if it is the only attack he makes that round and if he makes AOOs with his bite. He gets the same damage if he drops the club. Racially he has the ability to attack with the club even if he does not have one in hand. A lion does not, it only has its claws and bite. And a wolf only has its bite. The only time Timmy's bite damage changes is when he is using it to get an extra attack in a round, and then it is at .5 Str.
The "only one attack" rule doesn't account for the ability to make attacks with manufactured weapons. It only references natural weapons. But the rule about combining manufactured and natural weapons overrides the sole natural attack rule, so there are no issues here.Actually it does. That is why orc/half-orc, tengu, and Barbarian rage power bites and gores do not specify 1.5 str. They are (usually) the only natural attack the character has. But the character can make other attacks, namely manufactured weapon attacks.
If Timmy the Tengu is armed with a club he gets 1.0 Str with his bite if it is the only attack he makes that round and if he makes AOOs with his bite. He gets the same damage if he drops the club. Racially he has the ability to attack with the club even if he does not have one in hand. A lion does not, it only has its claws and bite. And a wolf only has its bite. The only time Timmy's bite damage changes is when he is using it to get an extra attack in a round, and then it is at .5 Str.
I've had this discussion before. The particularly relevant posts are here and here.
In particular, pay attention to the Mongrelman and the Thriae Soldier. They are examples of creatures in this exact situation - one natural attack with the capacity to make manufactured weapon attacks, yet the natural attack still benefits from the 1.5 STR rule.
That rule references only natural attacks. Then, the rule regarding the combination of natural and manufactured attacks overrides that rule meaning the sole natural attack still only does .5 STR when used as a secondary attack in conjunction with manufactured weapons.
Rules entries aren't going to mention every specific rule relevant to a situation. When you're allowed to gain a natural attack, they write the basic rules regarding that natural attack. For more drawn out rules relevant to that particular issue, they expect you to go to the relevant rules section on your own. So they don't mention the 1.5 STR rule in those entries because it'd waste a lot of space to repeat it every time. It's not going to be very often where those types of characters make a sole attack with just their natural attack, as opposed to their optimized Greataxe or whatever. If you want the comprehensive rules on natural attacks, go to the section that discusses natural attacks.
For instance, the Tiefling's Maw or Claw alt racial trait makes no mention of the rule about combining natural and manufactured weapons. This doesn't mean it doesn't apply to a Tiefling with a bite attack. They're just saving space.
The Mongrelman is a typo as it gives the same damage modifier (+3) for the club. They do not default to two-handed damage for one handed weapons unless mentioned in the description. So that leaves 1 creature. I would not take that as gospel since we know that there are errors in stat blocks.
I will concede that your interpretation has merit based on RAW. I do not think it is the correct interpretation however. I think that at least one of the races with a single natural attack would have mentioned that they got 1.5 Str if they attack only with that weapon. It was rare enough to rate mention.
The mongrelman isn't a typo; he's two-handing the club. That's why it says "or" instead of "and" in the melee block. The given options (which obviously can be used however the GM wants) are either a two-handed attack or a slam. If it were written with the intent of using the club in one hand, there would be club and slam (as a secondary). You can see one more entry with similar construction in the Bralani Azata. It's statblock presumes that it is two-handing it's scimitar. Or it could make a slam attack (also listed with getting 1.5 STR).
It's not a rare enough to mention thing. Mention it once then you have to mention it every time, otherwise people would claim it's only relevant to the creatures whose entries mention it.
The sentence relied upon for your interpretation references "attacks" without specifically mentioning that it is limited to natural attacks. That's how people tend to come to the conclusion you've also come to. However, the entire section is exclusively about natural attacks. Manufactured weapons aren't even contemplated in the section until the next paragraph when it goes into the rule regarding combining manufactured and natural attacks.