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Yes.
Bloodragers can get up to 10 Rage Powers. More than enough to get Superstition, Spell Sunder, Beast Totem and CAGM.
Bloodragers step too heavily on the Barbarian's toes.
Additionally, with Skalds giving Rage Powers to everyone, Barbarians were made even easier to replace. The difference in Str bonus is insignificant.
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10 Rage Powers is enough...but four of those don't crop up until 16th level and higher. So...for most games, we're talking maybe 6 Rage Powers or less throughout 90% of your career, jumping to 8 at the very end.
That's not enough Rage Powers for many (if not most) builds (the one you refer to is 7, 8 if it includes Strength Surge), since you can't raise it by burning Feats.
Barbarians also have the Human FCB to Superstition (a rather substantial advantage) and the Invulnerable Rager Archetype (another advantage not to be underestimated). Both are significant advantages. Add in one HP per level, not needing to invest even a little in Charisma, and Rage Powers to duplicate Bloodlines if you want them, and I doubt Barbarians are going anywhere any time soon.
Skalds are even more limited, with only the Rage Powers they gain from Class Features applying to everyone (so, 6 powers at most...5 in most games), and have lower stat bonuses to boot. Plus being a 3/4 BAB class with d8 HD, of course. Now, a Skald + a Slayer (or other melee guy) is a solid Barbarian replacement...but that's two people, and a Bard + Barbarian seems likely to be even better. Or, heck, a Barbarian + Skald (Totem Stacking! You know you want to...)
In short, no, I'm pretty sure it's more like what the Investigator is to the Slayer: An alternate way of doing some similar concepts that's maybe a little stronger, but doesn't subsume the Class in question's role in any meaningful sense.
I don't know. Untouchable Bloodrager eliminates the need for charisma, stacks with Primalist, and is pretty sweet to combo with Superstitious/Witchhunter/etc.
At low levels Invulnerable Rager is just too good to compare to Bloodrager. With a larger hit die and scrapping off a little damage here and there, Barbarian seems to be a better tank, but only marginally so.
Regardless of whether you think it's better, as good, or not as good.. I think it's easy to agree that the class is kinda way too similar to the base Barbarian.
Really similar chassis (d10vsd12 is basically it), the same secondary class features (blood sanctuary instead of trap sense)...
So basically it's just rage powers vs bloodline stuff and spellcasting. Even that's not as huge a difference as it sounds given that its mechanics (no way to improve action economy for true battle-mage stuff, inevitably low save DCs) basically make it fight like a barbarian that can buff itself too.
Should have given it a magus-esque archetype that let it do something with spells in combat rather than giving it an archetype that makes it even more similar to the barbarian.
I believe they don't qualify for the extra rage power feat.
Which leaves the barbarian a niche.
I'm still convinced that a Primalist Bloodrager is more effective than Barbarians 80% of the time. There will be occasions where the Barbarian has the advantage, but overall, the casting class is at advantage, as always...
To make it even worse, there is literally no downside to the Primalist archetype. You lost absolutely nothing, so the Bloodrager is not even making a sacrifice.
They gave too many of the Barbarian's toys to the Bloodrager. IMO, there really should be more differences between the two classes.
Barbarians are not as outperformed as Rogues or Fighters (who are completely pointless by now), but the ACG still kicked the class in the teeth.
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I'm still convinced that a Primalist Bloodrager is more effective than Barbarians 80% of the time. There will be occasions where the Barbarian has the advantage, but overall, the casting class is at advantage, as always...
Eh. Their spell list isn't strong on utility. Maybe post a build? I'll modify it just enough to be an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian and we can do a side-by-side comparison and see which does better.
Build it at, say, level 12, to make the advantage go the Bloodrager's way, but not bring up stuff that'll seldom come up.
To make it even worse, there is literally no downside to the Primalist archetype. You lost absolutely nothing, so the Bloodrager is not even making a sacrifice.
Well, you also gain nothing unless you burn a Bloodline Power. And a lot of those are really good and you'd rather not burn.
They gave too many of the Barbarian's toys to the Bloodrager. IMO, there really should be more differences between the two classes.
Maybe, but I feel like the basic concept was "It's a Barbarian with spells!"...so I'm not sure how you make that more distinct without damaging the core concept, actually.
Barbarians are not as outperformed as Rogues or Fighters (who are completely pointless by now), but the ACG still kicked the class in the teeth.
I don't feel that way at all. I wasn't tempted at all to change my Oracle 1/Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) X build's Barbarian levels to Bloodrager, for example, and he's already got a sky high Charisma.
And Fighter actually got a bit of a boost with Mutagen Warrior. It's not enough, but it doesn't hurt.
I'm still convinced that a Primalist Bloodrager is more effective than Barbarians 80% of the time. There will be occasions where the Barbarian has the advantage, but overall, the casting class is at advantage, as always...Eh. Their spell list isn't strong on utility. Maybe post a build? I'll modify it just enough to be an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian and we can do a side-by-side comparison and see which does better.
I don't have the HL data pack for the ACG yet... And I'm too lazy to do it otherwise. That software really spoiled me. :)
Anyway... Considering most of our discussions tend to go on and on with longer and longer replies... I'll just leave it alone, at least for now.
Gotta save my strength, after all... Since Paizo managed to screw up something as simple as "you add dex to damage".
G&$**~nit, this book is a disappointment... Is there anyway I can buy just the pages spent on Bloodrager, Investigator and Slayer and nothing else? -.-'
Maybe, but I feel like the basic concept was "It's a Barbarian with spells!"...so I'm not sure how you make that more distinct without damaging the core concept, actually.
Make the spells more synergistic with the core concept. "Buff myself before combat starts then be just another BSF" is a boring gish style that's been done to death.
Something to justify all the spells with Save Half or Save Negate on their spell list would be nice too.
Forget Primalist, just the bloodrager bloodlines are enough to upset the barbarian. Besides CAGM, Pounce, Superstition and Spell Sunde what can compare to:
Always on moderate fortification, a +3 armor special ability?
Always on Enlarge Person, at fourth level? The barbarian can gain that at 14h level with an archetype and has to pay doble cost in rage rounds while mantaining it.
An extra +6 str for an additional -2 to AC? That is easily the equivalent of three rage powers.
Always on Blur, Haste and Transformation? With the option to change into a dragon or large magical beast? That is worth like five Rage Powers.
Winged Flight with increasing speed and maneuverability? Best barbarian can get is once a rage, with a prerequisite.
+5 luck bonus to AC and all saving throws?
Auto confirm all criticals?
Any power that gives claws is straight up better than any Rage Powe that gives natural attacks.
And yeah, they're 'only' while raging, but a mid-level bloodrager can rage every round of every battle just like a barbarian can.
And let's not forget they also get extra feats. Free Power Attack if you can wait to get it at sixth level, free Improved Manuers, free Iron Will and free Improved Initiative are all on the menu.
And at 11th level he can free action cast a self buff when he begins a rage, altering the duration to as long as raging. Choices include Shield(because the AC penalty from Rage is so unfair), Protection from Alignment, Enlarge Person, Bulls Strenght(who needs belts?) and Mirror Image(who needs armor?).
I'm still convinced that a Primalist Bloodrager is more effective than Barbarians 80% of the time. There will be occasions where the Barbarian has the advantage, but overall, the casting class is at advantage, as always...Eh. Their spell list isn't strong on utility. Maybe post a build? I'll modify it just enough to be an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian and we can do a side-by-side comparison and see which does better.
Build it at, say, level 12, to make the advantage go the Bloodrager's way, but not bring up stuff that'll seldom come up.
I'll do it, tomorrow morning, must sleep first.
To make it even worse, there is literally no downside to the Primalist archetype. You lost absolutely nothing, so the Bloodrager is not even making a sacrifice.Well, you also gain nothing unless you burn a Bloodline Power. And a lot of those are really good and you'd rather not burn.
And some are. A couple of elemental resistances for two rage powes? Yes, please.
They gave too many of the Barbarian's toys to the Bloodrager. IMO, there really should be more differences between the two classes.Maybe, but I feel like the basic concept was "It's a Barbarian with spells!"...so I'm not sure how you make that more distinct without damaging the core concept, actually.
Take away DR and uncanny dodge. There, the Barbarian is straight up better at tanking.
I was going to make a poorly maximised build trying to get as many rage powes as possible but by Undone suggestion I'm going to just make a DPR build.
20ptb, no traits, 12th level
Any magic equipment that works for one works for the other so we can assume same weapons and armor and ignore other magic items. Deadmanwalking has up to 16000 in items that I don't have.
Str24 Dex10 Con15 Int10 Wis10 Cha18
FCB: 6 extra rounds of bloodrage, +6 HP
01 Power Attack, Claws
02
03 Weapon Focus (Greataxe)
04 Demonic Bulk
05 Arcane Strike
06 Improved Bullrush
07 Blooded Arcane Strike
08 Rage Powers: Lesser Spirit Totem, Spirit Totem
09 Raging Vitality, Toughness
10
11 Reckless Rage
12 Intimidating Prowess, Abissal Bloodrage
Normal:
HP 112 (10+5.5*11+2*12+6FCB+12Toughness)
Initiative 0
AC 23 Fort+10 Ref+4 Will+4
CMB 19 (21 Bullrush) CMD 29
Raging:
Str34 Dex8 Con23 Int10 Wis10 Cha18
HP 160 Initiative -1
AC 21 Fort+14 Ref+3 Will+7
CMB 24 (26 Bullrush) CMD 33
Fast Healing 3
Large size, 10ft Natural Reach
20% miss chance against anything not adjacent
He casts Shield as a free action at the beggining of rage
Normal: Greataxe +22/+17/+12 1d12+11 x3
Normal PA: Greataxe +18/+13/+8 1d12+23 x3
Raging: Greataxe +28/+23/+18 3d6+25 x3; Spirit +16 1d4+4
or Claws +23/+23 2d6+15 +1d6 (fire); Spirit +16 1d4+4
Raging PA: Greataxe +23/+18/+13 3d6+40 x3; Spirit +16 1d4+4
or Claws +18/+18 2d6+15 +1d6 (fire); Spirit +16 1d4+4
Equipment:
+2 Furious Greataxe
+3 Chainmail
+2 Ring of Protection
+2 Amulet of Natural Armor
+4 Belt of Strenght
+4 Headband of Charisma
+32830 gp in other stuff
Spells known:
1st: Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Protection from Evil, Magic Missile, Feather Fall, Line in the Sand, Expeditious Retreat
2nd: Bulls Strenght, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Brow Gasher, Stone Discus, Acid Arrow
3rd: Haste, Keen Edge, Fly, Fireball
Spells per day:
1st: 3
2nd: 3
3rd: 2
Skills:
Intimidate +28(+33 when raging)
Pereception +15
Spellcraft +15
Knowledge Arcana +15
Notes:
If he thinks there will be a fight in the next two hours he uses Keen Edge to make his Greataxe 19-20/x3
His Intimidate check is awesome. In both senses of the word.
Since Invulnerable Rager ditches Uncanny Dodge, I ditched Uncanny Dodge too. Fast Healing, to me, is better than DR since it works on any type of damage.
Edit: Forgot to put the CMB and CMD.
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Str24 Dex14 Con20 Int10 Wis12 Cha7
FCB: +3 to Superstition Bonus, +3 HP
01 Power Attack
02 Superstition
03 Extra Rage Power (Lesser Beast Totem)
04 Witch Hunter
05 Raging Vitality
06 Reckless Abandon
07 Extra Rage Power (Beast Totem)
08 Spell Sunder
09 Extra Rage Power (Strength Surge)
10 Greater Beast Totem
11 Improved Sunder
12 Eater of Magic
Normal:
HP 146 (12+6.5*11+5*12+3FCB)
Initiative +2
AC 25 Fort+13 Ref+6 Will+5
CMB 19 (21 Sunder) CMD 31
DR 6/-, Fire Resistance 3
Raging:
Str30 Dex14 Con28 Int10 Wis12 Cha7
HP 194 Initiative +2
AC 23 Fort+17 Ref+6 Will+8, +8 vs. spells and supernatural or spell-like abilities,
CMB 26 (28 Sunder) CMD 27
DR 6/-, Fire Resistance 3
Normal: Greataxe +21/+16/+11 1d12+11 19-20x3
Normal PA: Greataxe +17/+12/+7 1d12+23 19-20x3
Raging: Greataxe +28/+23/+18 1d12+18 19-20x3;
or Claws +23/+23 1d8+10 x3
Raging PA: Greataxe +24/+19/+14 1d12+36 19-20x3;
or Claws +18/+18 1d8+18;
All are +4 damage against any creature with spell-like abilities
Equipment:
+1 Furious Keen Adamantine Greataxe
+3 Chainmail
+2 Ring of Protection
+2 Amulet of Natural Armor
+4 Belt of Strength and Constitution
+22130 gp in other stuff
Skills:
Acrobatics +18
Pereception +16
Survival +16
Knowledge Nature +15
He lacks Haste, technically, but you can tack on stuff for that out of item budget, or he can get it from a party member. Ditto Enlarge Person, actually.
Slightly different skills, admittedly, but about equally useful, IMO.
This build does a bit less damage than the Bloodrager (42.5 per hit instead of 50.5)...on the other hand, his Saves are more than twice as high, with a +25 Fort, +14 Ref, and +13 Will for most purposes, and his HP are quite a bit higher as well, plus DR. If the two fought, they both go down after the same number of attacks from the other (actually, I think the Barbarian edges it out). AC is the same when raging, as are attacks. And the Barbarian can do the whole Spell Sunder thing very well indeed, and Eater of Magic isn't bad at all either. Oh, and he has Pounce, which is not to be underestimated as advantages go.
And that's off the top of my head, mind you. I could likely do better with a bit of effort (Rage Cycling would help this build a really profound amount, for example). And that's even ignoring Come And Get Me, which this build didn't even take, despite how awesome it is.
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Crap, I screwed up some math on my damage there. It's actually only 1d12+30 when Power Attacking. That drops it to 36.5 per hit, and only about 2/3 the Bloodrager's.
That's much lower DPR. Still, scrapping Strength Surge and Improved Sunder and I could slip in Combat Reflexes and Come and Get Me...which would jack the DPR way past that of the Bloodrager, and be useless to him even if he took it, because he lacks the Dex to make use of it.
Now, you could make a Bloodrager that could make use of that power...but you'd need to slot a lot more into Dex and something would have to give, since you still need Charisma.
And the defensive advantages of the build are not to be overstated. If bothhit each other three times for average damage, rounding up, the Bloodrager takes 110 pts of damage (actually 122 due to Witch Hunter, but that's situational) and has 50 HP left (actually 38), while the Barbarian takes 139 after DR and has 55 HP left. Now, that's still slightly in the Bloodrager's favor (unless we count Witch Hunter)...but not a lot, and then there are the vastly better saves.
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Well... I'll just ban the Primalist archetype and be done with it anyway... Want rage Powers? Go play a Barbarian.
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No. The difference between the Rogue and the Trapfinder/Vivesectionist Alchemist or the Rogue and the Archaeologist or the Rogue and the Slayer or whatever other flavor of "rogue" you prefer is that the pseudo-rogues can manage to do almost literally everything the rogue does better than the rogue can do it, then can pull out new tricks that the rogue can't even dream of.
The Primalist can pull out the barbarian's CaGM Beast Totem Witch Hunger stuff, and he will do it well if he is built to do so, but the Barbarian will do it better with more Rage Powers available to him at less of an opportunity cost, and that Human FCB that blows Superstition beyond what it was ever meant to be. Also, there is the fact that a Bloodrager[non-Untouchable at least], with Superstition will actually nerf himself as much as he buffs himself, because all of his buff spells, including a lot of the Sp bloodrage powers like Arcane's amazing antics, allow saves.
Now, is the Primalist stronger? Arguably yes, but at least it isn't stronger by as much as the Rogue debacle.
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I'm not sure why the default is assuming witch hunter doesn't count given that its one of the better rage powers. I believe you also may not have counted the beast totem natural armor bonus into the barb's AC though all that does is mitigate most of the AC loss from CAGM.
I'm trying to give the Bloodrager the benefit of the doubt when it comes to comparisons, hence erring on the side of not including Witch Hunter. And I remembered the Beast Totem NA bonus, it's just countered by Reckess Abandon (which you might drop if going CAGM). And I noted how much better CAGM made the build myself. :)
Also your build has dex 14 which means with combat reflexes he would effectively double the number of attacks per round going from his 3 attacks to 3 attacks plus 3 aoo's in response to the bloodragers 3 attacks thereby doubling the damage he would deal.
Indeed. Sorta where I was going with noting CAGM as ridiculously good, :)
Shockingly in the BR vs Barb matchup the barb wins if he takes the usual suspects. (Superstition, Reckless abandon, Witch hunter, Beast totem line, CaGM) And you take +6 str.
The Barbarian build still outperforms that Bloodrager even if he were to grab, say, Beast Totem and Superstition. The Bloodrager lacks the Rage Powers to grab as many of the good ones as the Barbarian can.
+5 luck bonus to AC and all saving throws?Ok you got me, it's a luck bonus. If I only had this bigger moral bonus as a rage power.
Without the human favored class bonus in play I think the Destined thing is stronger than Superstition once you are past the low levels. More so the higher you get. I'd rather have +5 luck to saves and AC, no strings, than +7 morale to saves, roll vs. friendly.
(Plus, luck overlaps with other bonuses much less frequently than morale does - including the basic rage bonus to Will saves)
The Superstition favored class bonus changes things, a lot.
That's much lower DPR. Still, scrapping Strength Surge and Improved Sunder and I could slip in Combat Reflexes and Come and Get Me...which would jack the DPR way past that of the Bloodrager, and be useless to him even if he took it, because he lacks the Dex to make use of it
Scrapping Strength Surge and Improved Sunder really diminishes what you will get out of Spell Sunder, I think. That's a pretty harsh tradeoff.
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Short version, rage powers are just better than BR bloodlines.
Not one-for-one. Heck, not even two-for-one usually...but at more than two-for one (by burning Feats)? Yeah, they tend to be notably better when you have enough.
Without the human favored class bonus in play I think the Destined thing is stronger than Superstition once you are past the low levels. More so the higher you get. I'd rather have +5 luck to saves and AC, no strings, than +7 morale to saves, roll vs. friendly.
(Plus, luck overlaps with other bonuses much less frequently than morale does - including the basic rage bonus to Will saves)
The Superstition favored class bonus changes things, a lot.
This is fair, and Destined is awesome. However, while many Bloodrager builds do a particular thing as well or better than a well-made Barbarian, none seem to do everything better, making the classes more on-par than obsoleting each other.
A Destined Primalist can get Superstition, Beast Totem, and this and win at saves on-par with a Human Barbarian plus have Pounce, but he's not gonna have CAGM, and will also lack the Spell sunder stuff...nor have half his level to DR.
Scrapping Strength Surge and Improved Sunder really diminishes what you will get out of Spell Sunder, I think. That's a pretty harsh tradeoff.
Which would be why I was reluctant to do it. Something's gotta give when switching things out, though, and a +30 CMB is sufficient for a lot of the uses of Spell Sunder. Still, scrapping something else might be a better choice. Maybe Improved Sunder (though that'll result in AoO).
So, we can agree that there is a single build with a single archetype, pretty much fixed Rage Power and Feat selections, with minmaxed cha to the toilet, and with only three possible races, that can outshine the BR?
Only one single cookie-cutter build can compete with the BR. And that shows the BR doesn't obsolete the Barbarian how again?
Any power that gives claws is straight up better than any Rage Powe that gives natural attacks.I uh... What? Explain this one to me. The pounce totem gives you the same claws... Do you mean they don't scale?
Well yeah, if you can't see how 1d8+1d6(energy) is better than 1d6, than there is no way I can explain it better.
And what happened to
Eh. Their spell list isn't strong on utility. Maybe post a build? I'll modify it just enough to be an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian and we can do a side-by-side comparison and see which does better.
"Modify it just a little" These words, I don't think they mean what you think they mean :)
And the defensive advantages of the build are not to be overstated. If bothhit each other three times for average damage, rounding up, the Bloodrager takes 110 pts of damage (actually 122 due to Witch Hunter, but that's situational) and has 50 HP left (actually 38), while the Barbarian takes 139 after DR and has 55 HP left. Now, that's still slightly in the Bloodrager's favor (unless we count Witch Hunter)...but not a lot, and then there are the vastly better saves.
Don't forget to account for my Spirit Slam, 6 damage not negated by DR or energy resistance, and for the AoO you eat for getting in reach to trade blows with me. I only get the one but I do get it. Also CAGM would increase your normal DPR, but it does squat against, say, reach users that can five foot step before attacking making it so you don't even threaten with you AoOs. Even with CAGM, this Bloodrager would whup your Barbarian in a one on one match.
The Barbarian build still outperforms that Bloodrager even if he were to grab, say, Beast Totem and Superstition. The Bloodrager lacks the Rage Powers to grab as many of the good ones as the Barbarian can.
I'm sorry, but who are you outperforming? You got better saves, but only 2/3 of the DPR, (actually a little less since you keep excluding my Spirit Slam) my other defenses are slightly better (20% miss chance and fast healing 3, versus 2 more AC and DR6/-), and I got better utility, (Fly, Glitterdust, Intimidate and Spellcraft versus Acrobatics and Survival) and more money left over after the big six. You would only outperform with CAGM.
Also, sure you can get a couple of casters and a prep round to grab Enlarge Person and Haste, but then I get a couple of casters and a prep round toget Haste, Moment of Greatness, and my own Brow Gasher on me. The BR is straight up better than the Barbarian at getting buffed.I'll try to make the "All Rage Powers" Bloodrager build again monday see if I can do it a little better.
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So, we can agree that there is a single build with a single archetype, pretty much fixed Rage Power and Feat selections, with minmaxed cha to the toilet, and with only three possible races, that can outshine the BR?
The rage Power selection isn't really entirely fixed...but the Races and the Archetype sure help, yeah. Of course, certain Bloodlines and Archetypes are much better for Bloodragers, too. I note that you went Abyssal rather than, say, Fey Bloodline, and that you took the Primalist Archetype. You skip Primalist and I'll skip Invulnerable Rager. ;)
Only one single cookie-cutter build can compete with the BR. And that shows the BR doesn't obsolete the Barbarian how again?
Because it's a pretty common and effective build, and does unambiguously better than the Bloodrager at many things.
Well yeah, if you can't see how 1d8+1d6(energy) is better than 1d6, than there is no way I can explain it better.Any power that gives claws is straight up better than any Rage Powe that gives natural attacks.I uh... What? Explain this one to me. The pounce totem gives you the same claws... Do you mean they don't scale?
Beast Totem actually improves to 1d8 and x3 crit, which is probably better than 1d8+1d6 energy, and certainly on par.
And what happened to
Eh. Their spell list isn't strong on utility. Maybe post a build? I'll modify it just enough to be an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian and we can do a side-by-side comparison and see which does better."Modify it just a little" These words, I don't think they mean what you think they mean :)
Uh...I went with a different Rage Power list (because the one you picked was decent for a Bloodrager but bad for a Barbarian), switched a few Feats (because the Barbarian didn't qualify for them), and switched Bull Rush for Sunder.
In terms of stats, I dumped Charisma (because being able to do this is one of a Barbarian's big advantages) and used the extra points to raise his other stats.
I didn't change race, weapon choice, kept almost all the Feats a Barbarian actually qualified for (I think I swapped out two for Extra Rage Power...but that's actually the point of the difference, that they can do that), didn't change Str or Int, and only altered items very minimally.
Trust me, none of that is true on the 'optimal Barbarian'. I built on the same chassis you did, with just enough changes to make it a good Barbarian rather than a good Bloodrager.
Don't forget to account for my Spirit Slam, 6 damage not negated by DR or energy resistance, and for the AoO you eat for getting in reach to trade blows with me. I only get the one but I do get it. Also CAGM would increase your normal DPR, but it does squat against, say, reach users that can five foot step before attacking making it so you don't even threaten with you AoOs. Even with CAGM, this Bloodrager would whup your Barbarian in a one on one match.
I counted Spirit Slam into the damage, though I did forget to note that I did. Sorry.
And yeah, reach is an issue, another one I sorta forgot while writing it up (since the base build I did actually lacked CAGM)...but you can get around it with Step Up or just having a reach weapon (plus maybe an AoMF). Easy enough.
I'm sorry, but who are you outperforming? You got better saves, but only 2/3 of the DPR, (actually a little less since you keep excluding my Spirit Slam) my other defenses are slightly better (20% miss chance and fast healing 3, versus 2 more AC and DR6/-), and I got better utility, (Fly, Glitterdust, Intimidate and Spellcraft versus Acrobatics and Survival) and more money left over after the big six. You would only outperform with CAGM.
The 20% miss chance only applies at range. What's a Barbarian doing at range? Yeah, reach can help make it useful, but still. The DR is just miles better than the Fast Healing. If hit four times, it's 24 less damage, which is 8 times what Fast Healing does.
Fly and Glitterdust are shiny, but Spell Sunder is likely equally good in it's own way.
And you're ignoring the Saves. Your version is extremely likely to spend almost as much time fighting the party as their enemies if he ever goes up against anything with mind control, for example.
Also, sure you can get a couple of casters and a prep round to grab Enlarge Person and Haste, but then I get a couple of casters and a prep round toget Haste, Moment of Greatness, and my own Brow Gasher on me. The BR is straight up better than the Barbarian at getting buffed.
That's true enough, though I was thinking just someone to cast Haste...which gives the Bloodrager just someone to cast Haste on him.
I'll try to make the "All Rage Powers" Bloodrager build again monday see if I can do it a little better.
If you like. I feel like the builds already made and a little math prove what I'm saying. Which is not, for the record, that I think the Bloodrager is bad or less than awesome. It's really quite good and has several advantages over the Barbarian...the Barbarian just also has several advantages. Enough that it's not obsoleted in a meaningful sense.
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Only one single cookie-cutter build can compete with the BR. And that shows the BR doesn't obsolete the Barbarian how again?
No it shows that only one single cookie-cutter build can compete with a similar cookie-cutter build from a BR utilizing Primalist to try to get some of the former's cookie-cutter build.
But in regards to this thread I'm not too concerned about it. Getting Rage Powers every 4 levels sucks in regards to getting one every other level or even every level with extra rage power.
Only one single cookie-cutter build can compete with the BR. And that shows the BR doesn't obsolete the Barbarian how again?Because it's a pretty common and effective build, and does unambiguously better than the Bloodrager at many things.
Have to agree on this. Beast totem+Superstition+CaGM is pretty much the iconic optimized Barbarian build.
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Ah, your right, I did miss that. Sorry.
No worries, just noting. :)
edit: I also forgot to mention if you are going CAGM you may very well want to skip Improved Sunder since if you provoke and they take the AOO you get to smash them in the face first.
Solid call. Once again, just noting that I came up with that build in like 15 minutes...so it's not the best one ever.
This:
Only one single cookie-cutter build can compete with the BR. And that shows the BR doesn't obsolete the Barbarian how again?
No it shows that only one single cookie-cutter build can compete with a similar cookie-cutter build from a BR utilizing Primalist to try to get some of the former's cookie-cutter build.
But in regards to this thread I'm not too concerned about it. Getting Rage Powers every 4 levels sucks in regards to getting one every other level or even every level with extra rage power.
Great post Scavion.
@Deadmanwalking: rock solid posts.