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So, a lot of people on these forums know a little bit about this game and how to optimize things. A thing I've noticed is a distinct lack of ability to take something as is and optimize it as requested. So as part of the challenge (and for some maybe the hardest part) can you make an optimized cleric or oracle without suggesting another class that may or may not be better?
The subject was initiated with the idea being: what if you removed the things everyone thinks or knows are good and force yourself to make a character with what is left? Will you have something different? Something good? Both? Since people do what they are familiar with and what they know works, we aren't likely to find out without taking an intentional step down this path.
That said the rules are simple:
1.) Don't suggest another class, though oracle is an acceptable alternative. The discussion moves forward on the grounds that it is a cleric/possible oracle who has to be optimized.
2.) You're in a home game but you're building to 11 without 3rd party material. Most acceptable races are allowed (use your better judgment) and your fantasy world is no more slanted to one theme than it is another. Lastly all encounters are a realistic mix on any given day.
3.) You cannot bypass the cleric spell list through race selection or paragon surge or other bs. You can use domain spells and mystery spells not on the cleric list.
4.) You may never personally make weapon attack rolls that are not made through either a touch or ranged touch spell. You're a caster first and last.
5.) You may not fulfill these common party roles: Healer, Buffer, Martial Damage Dealer.
6.) If a popular (cleric) spell is granted to you by a domain or mystery, you don't get it. If your race gives you a popular sla you do get it.
7.) You may use any feats normally available to players. Though multiclassing is discouraged, prestige classing is not and any other classes used to enter one are acceptable. If a non PRC-related multiclassing takes place it has to enhance the builds theme through functionally related mechanics or actual, you know, role play feasibility.
8.) Have fun. You are free from being built normally and typecast into favored roles. Take this as a moment to flex your creativity and have it rewarded with on topic refinement and not just altered into what's already been commonly done before.
Other ideas are welcome.
That's all I could think of for now so here are the 'popular' spells you may never ever under any circumstance cast:
Uncastables
All Cure spells.
All single target Inflict spells.
Heal
Bless
Cause Fear
Command
Divine Favor
Infernal Healing
Both Magic Weapon spells
Magic Vestment
The entire protection from Evil chain (but not the other alignments).
Obscuring Mist
Shield of Faith
Sanctuary
Every Summon Monster spell.
Every Planar Ally spell.
Aid
Align Weapon
All Animate Dead spells.
Compassionate Ally
All the Darkness and Light spells (Deeper Darkness, Daylight).
Hold Person
The Endure Elements chain
Make Whole
Silence
Sound Burst
Spiritual Weapon
Bestow Curse
Blindness/Deafness
Chain of Perdition
Dispel Magic
Invisibility Purge
Prayer
All Restoration spells.
Searing Light
Airwalk
Deathwards
Tongues
Flame strike
Ghostbane Dirge
Planeshift
Bringing people back to life.
Wall of Stone
OH this is good, I've actually been thinking about this one
There are other good spells, but you can't really run the cleric well without good spells unless you have a party that is suited for those spells, so the question that also needs to be asked is "who is the cleric traveling with?".
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Challenge Accepted.
I would prefer to do it as an oracle, though I will submit 2 cleric builds.
1st Cleric build:
Cleric of Ra.
Domains - Sun, Glory
Take alternative channel, Rulership
Pump your cha to max(18 min, pref 20), 14 wis, and get some con (prolly 14)
Traits : Sacred Conduit, Reactionary
Feats: Anything and everything to do with channeling, and initiative. Selective Channeling, Versatile Channeling, Extra Channeling, Quick channeling, improved initiative.
How to play: Dazing alternate channel both the living and the dead for stunlock lulz.
2nd Cleric Build:
Theologian of Sarenrae
Domain (Fire)
Traits: Magical Lineage (Fireball), Reactionary.
Feats: Spell Pen and Greater, Empower Spell, Spell Focus Evocation and Greater.
How to play: Just throw Fireballs. And every blasting spell (burning hands etc) on your domain spell list, prepare em in ordinary slots. If it is a good vs evil campaign - Prc to Divine scion, and blast away. Best works with 1 lvl cross blooded sorc dip (Draconic and Orc), in which replace Magical lineage with magical knack, reactionary with Wayang Spellhunter. Don't forget elemental rods for quick switching of elements.
4 Oracle Builds:
1st Oracle build:
Flame oracle.
*Repeat as above for Theologian of Sarenrae, and blow more stuff up.
2nd Oracle build:
Lunar Oracle (Half Elf or Aasimar)
Pump cha. A lot.
Buy a Ring of eloquence so you can speak in animal form, and a polymorphic pouch so you can cast in animal form.
FCB Form of the beast as soon as you get to 7.
Take at 7: Touch of the moon revelation.
Lv 11 feat: Abundant Revelation (Form of the Beast).
How to play: Turn into a gorgon, stay as a gorgon, and have fun with the breath weapon. All day long. Between breath weapon recharge, fool around with mass inflict light wounds(only single inflict spells were not allowed, no one said anything about mass) to spam confusion.
3rd Oracle Build:
Heavens oracle:
Revelation: Awesome display.
Possibly best done as a gnome.
Go into Veiled illusionist as soon as you qualify and take the following illusion spells: Loathsome Veil, Scintillating pattern(when of high enough level).
For more flexibility, pick up shadow evocation, shadow conjuration, invisibility and maybe later shades.(From Veiled illusionist)
Feats: Spell Focus illusion and greater, spell penetration and greater, effortless trickery.
4th Oracle Build:
Curse: Haunted and Burned
Mystery: Flame
Get some rogue/ninja levels, go into arcane trickster. Dip 1 lvl veiled illusionist for Greater Invisibility(when of lvl). Attempt to greater invis and sneak attack with scorching rays for profit. Another alternative is to use eldritch heritage for shadow bloodline so you can hide in your party members shadow. Not sure of its effectiveness.
First thing that comes to mind for me is Dual Cursed Oracle with Blackened/Consumed/Wrecker in some combo; Oracle's Burden focused for a pretty devastating debuff. More thought required for rest of the build. Would you consider the Misfortune revelation too "mainstream" for the proposed hipster challenge?
This one is the blaster build casting
A claric throwing CL 15 fireballs at lv11
Human Cleric Theologian fire(ash is optional) domain
20pt buy
str 9, dex 10, con 10, int 13, wis 17+2, cha 14
Channel Negative energy
Traits:Magical Lineage
init+2
1 spell focus (evocation)
1 spell specialization (burning hands later fireball)
3 varisian tattoo (evocation)
5 elemental spell
(5) domain secret intensified fireball
7 empowered spell
9 Greater Spell Specialization (fireball)
(10)
11 Bloodmage Initiate (evocation)
or
1 spell focus (evocation)
1 spell specialization (burning hands later fireball)
3 heighten spell
5 preferred spell (fireball)
(5) domain secret intensified fireball
7 empowered spell
9 varisian tattoo (evocation)
(10)
11 Bloodmage Initiate (evocation)
Armor: Full-plate
This cleric runs like your blaster wizards except you can't change your element as easily. Get lesser rods of maximize, elemental(if needed) and quicken.
Early use your domain ability and burning hands and channel as needed for offense. Continue till you get fireball and switch to it. Later you can prep other spells and cast fireball as needed.
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Herald of the Lantern King
Human Cleric (Theologian) of The Lantern King 10/Sorcerer (Crossblooded) 1
CN Medium humanoid (human)
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Offense
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Special Attacks aura of madness (DC 24, 12 rounds/day), bloodline arcana: undead, channel negative energy 6/day (DC 20, 5d6)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th; concentration +14)
. . 6/day—grave touch
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +18)
. . 11/day—vision of madness (+/-6)
Sorcerer (Crossblooded) Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +4):
. . 1st (4/day)—charm person (DC 16)
. . 0 (at will)—daze (DC 15), ghost sound (DC 13), haunted fey aspect
Cleric (Theologian) Spells Prepared (CL 10th; concentration +18):
. . 5th—height confusion (3, DC 25), nightmare (DC 23)
. . 4th—confusion (DC 24), confusion (5, DC 24)
. . 3rd—height murderous command (5, DC 23), rage
. . 2nd—calm emotions (2, DC 22), height murderous command (4, DC 22), touch of idiocy
. . 1st—lesser confusion{super}D{/super} (DC 21), murderous command (6, DC 21)
. . 0 (at will)—
. . D Domain spell; Domain Madness
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 26, Cha 16
Base Atk +7; CMB +6; CMD 16
Feats Eschew Materials, Extra Channel, Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), Heighten Spell, Improved Channel, Persistent Spell[APG], Selective Channeling, Spell Focus (enchantment)
Traits elven bitterness (kyonin), indomitable faith
Languages Common
SQ human cleric, aura, bloodlines (serpentine, undead), domain secret, domain secret, focused domain, variant channeling (madness variant channeling)
Combat Gear ring of invisibility; Other Gear headband of inspired wisdom +6, 150 gp
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Special Abilities
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+8 vs. Spell Resistance of Outsiders Add a +1 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome the spell resistance of outsiders.
Aura (Ex) The character has a strong aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Aura of Madness (12 rounds/day, DC 24) (Su) 30' aura confuses opponents.
Bloodline Arcana: Undead (Ex) Formerly humanoid corporeal undead are humanoids for your mind-affecting spells.
Cleric (Theologian) Domain (Madness) Granted Powers: You embrace the madness that lurks deep in your heart, and can unleash it to drive your foes insane or to sacrifice certain abilities to hone others.
Cleric Channel Negative Energy 5d6 (6/day, DC 20) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Domain Secret (Bouncing Spell) (Ex) Murderous Command permanently modified with metamagic.
Domain Secret (Focused Spell) (Ex) Confusion permanently modified with metamagic.
Elven Bitterness (Kyonin) +2 to spell DC when the target is a chaotic evil outsider.
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Focused Domain +2 to cleric level for domain powers.
Grave Touch (1 rds, 6/day) (Sp) Melee touch attack leaves target shaken for 1 round or frightened for 1 round.
Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) +1 to the Save DC of spells from one school.
Heighten Spell Increases spell level to effective level desired.
Madness Variant Channeling (±3 Profane) Bonus vs confusion, insanity, etc./become confused
Persistent Spell Foes must succeed at 2 saves or suffer the spell's full effects.
Ring of invisibility By activating this simple silver ring, the wearer can benefit from invisibility, as the spell.
Selective Channeling Exclude targets from the area of your Channel Energy.
Serpentine Your mind-affecting and language-dependent spells can affect animals, magical beasts and monstrous humanoids as if they were humanoids who understand your language.
Spell Focus (Enchantment) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Undead Some undead are susceptible to your mind-affecting spells. Corporeal undead that were once humanoids are treated as humanoids for the purposes of determining which spells affect them.
Vision of Madness (11/day) (Sp) With a melee touch attack, target gains +6 on attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks and -6 on the others.
Can Channel to cause Confusion; has a Confusion aura; can cast Focused Confusion 6/day (DC 24) and Focused Heightened Confusion 3/day (DC 24) that will affect animals, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids & corporeal undead that were humanoid. Also a bunch of bouncing and/or persistent Murderous Commands to keep foes fighting amongst themselves...all the while sneaking around with a Ring of Invisibility to keep out of the fray.
I'm sure I could have done better, but I'm sleepy.
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I love the ideas, keep them coming!
@chaoseffect, it may be a bit mainstream but if you give it a nice effort, your personal flavor and maybe find something clever, original or really just cool, let's hear it! :)
Here are two that come to mind; one commonly played and the other a familiar concept that's not normally practical for adventuring- made so.
The Strategic Commander is probably an Evangelist, Divine Strategist or regular cleric with about 5-6 levels of Fighter Tactician, Armor Expert or Tower Shield Specialist. He has the animal domain (or either of its sub domains), Knowledge (and either the memory or thought sub domain), or the tactics sub domain. Any of these combinations fit the theme and work quite well together. He is incredibly flexible to design and can even go cavalier instead of fighter (or as many fighter levels).
His typical spells are:
1.) Know the Enemy, Compel Hostility, Burning Disarm, Forbid Action, Reinforce Armaments and Swallow Your Fear.
At camp or siege-
Clarion Call, Abundant Ammunition, Hunters Lore, Detect Charm, Silent Table, Sentry Skull.
General utility-
Karmic Blessing, Liberating Command, Sun Metal, Find Traps, Effortless Armor, Recentering Drone, Remove Paralysis, Spell Gauge, and Archon's Aura.
He works most closely with inquisitors, rangers, wizards and gunslingers, and provides sound information and advice on how to deal with coming threats, which he is very capable of preparing for.
When engaged in direct combat his build focuses on not being hit so that he may learn about the enemies capabilities for future encounters whole focusing enemy fire on himself through spells and feats. He has radically different spells prepared depending on whether he has advanced information, is doing militaristic activity (scouting, skirmishing), or is 'in town' which for him is any setting where he and the group will be making plans and forming strategies. He is not afraid to prepare the long list of awesomee first level spells for these things in higher level slots.
His feats are: (in no realistic order)
1-Fortified Armor Training
1-Field Repair
1-Improved unarmed Strike
2-Kirin Style
3-Shield Focus
4-Step Up
5-Combat Reflexes
7-Improved Initiative
9-Bodyguard
11-Archon Style
Teamwork feat.
His traits are: Defender of the Society and anything else that is useful. Maybe the helpful trait or reactionary.
And he wears full plate and carries a tower shield, has a moderate Dex, high wisdom and modest charisma and Con. Half of the feats (like the styles) can be switched out for more munchkiny stuff. But this is a basic skeleton.
Madam Misery is a debuffing cleric with the chaos and toil domains. She makes great use of her domain powers and prefers to activate her aura of repetition once she has caused key targets sufficient frustration through forced uselessness, ensuring they remain just as useless for another round.
She has selective channel, quick channel and improved channel while the rest of her feats are spell focus or metamagic. She is probably an evangelist or ecclesitheurge but neither are necessary. She variant channels with whatever deity portfolio offers useful debuffs that match artifice or chaos. She likely channels negative energy and has high wisdom, moderate charisma and balanced remaining stats to allow her touches to land more often.
On any given day she will have several of these spells prepared:
1.) Haze of Dreams, Bane, Doom, Forbid Action, Ray of Sickening.
2.) Burst of Radiance, Calm Emotions, Early Judgement, Disfiguring Touch Shatter.
3.) Archon's Aura, Sands of Time, Hydrophobia, Vision of Hell
4.) Aura of Doom, Black Spot, Debilitating Portent, Spit Venom, Fleshworm Infestation, Terrible Remorse.
It gets to be overkill at spell levels above this. Kathy, I mean Madam Misery, has a lot of room to actually prepare utility and condition removal effects. She's incredibly versatile and loses absolutely no focus due to having a rather long list of spells that effectively debuff targets.
Herald of the Lantern King
** spoiler omitted **...
OMG I love this build SO much!
Confusion has always been something I love unleashing on the game.
Dazing Sun Metal and/or Admonishing Ray?
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Another one I whipped up quick. I tried a Rage Prophet Martyr of Asmodeus, but the DCs were too low (but the HP was sooooo high). Here is a just a plain ol' Martyr of Asmodeus:
Human Cleric (Separatist) of Asmodeus 11
LE Medium humanoid (human)
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Defense
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hp 152 (11d8+94)
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Offense
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Speed 35 ft.
Special Attacks channel negative energy 3/day (DC 15, 6d6)
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th; concentration +18)
. . 10/day—rebuke death (1d4+4)
Cleric (Separatist) Spells Prepared (CL 11th; concentration +18):
. . 6th—heal, height prstnt shared sacrifice (2, DC 23)
. . 5th—breath of life (DC 22), height prstnt compel hostility (3)
. . 4th—cure critical wounds, greater infernal healing (2), prstnt shared sacrifice (2, DC 21)
. . 3rd—blood rage (2), cure serious wounds, height shared sacrifice (2, DC 22), prstnt compel hostility (2)
. . 2nd—cure moderate wounds, shared sacrifice (6, DC 21)
. . 1st—compel hostility (6), cure light wounds
. . 0 (at will)—
. . D Domain spell; Domains Conversion Inquisition, Healing
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 8, Con 22, Int 8, Wis 24, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +7; CMD 16
Feats Antagonize[UM], Greater Spell Focus (necromancy), Heighten Spell, Persistent Spell[APG], Spell Focus (necromancy), Toughness, Tribal Scars
Traits fiendish confidence
Skills Intimidate +22
SQ aura, forbidden rites (healing), healer's blessing, swaying word
Other Gear belt of mighty constitution +4, boots of the earth, headband of inspired wisdom +4, 150 gp
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Special Abilities
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Antagonize Use Diplomacy or Intimidate to goad creatures
Aura (Ex) The character has a strong aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Boots of the earth Move action to gain fast healing 1 and +4 to CMD vs. bull rush, reposition, trip.
Cleric Channel Negative Energy 6d6 (3/day, DC 15) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy) +1 to the Save DC of spells from one school.
Healer's Blessing (Su) Your cure spells are empowered for free.
Heighten Spell Increases spell level to effective level desired.
Persistent Spell Foes must succeed at 2 saves or suffer the spell's full effects.
Spell Focus (Necromancy) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Swaying Word (1/day, DC 22) (Sp) Spoken word of divine wisdom dominates one person for 1 min (Will neg).
Cast Shared Sacrifice. Cast Compel Hostility. Use Antagonize. Toss on Greater Infernal Healing. For giggles, take Greater Stunning Barrier. Folks who hit you will take half their damage back and potentially be stunned for a round.
I don't know if I'm breaking the 'rules' or just blurring them here, but its a fun, organic concept - and technically all spell damage/debuff...
Human Separatist Cleric of Gozreh 10 (Domains: Weather & Ferocity) / Sohei 1
Traits: Magical Knack, Wayang Spell Hunter: Gozreh's Trident
1. Channel Smite / Guided Hand
2 (Sohei). Dodge / (regains trident proficiency)
3. Weapon Focus: Trident
5. Crusader's Flurry: Trident
7. Empower Spell
9. Elemental Spell
11. Dazing Spell
Because Empower Spell has been ruled to work with bonuses to a spell's dice rolls, Gozreh's Trident at 10 could become:
[2d6(enlarge person)+5, +5(ferocious strike), +3(divine power)] x1.5(empower) = 30ish. Divine Power and Flurry of Blows gets you 4 strikes with your lightning bolt in a full attack. Channel Smite can throw in another 5d6 negative energy to beef up a lightning bolt charge. If you meant to put Divine Power on the list, then strike Divine Power and Fate's Favored; its still a really nasty lightning bolt 'weapon'. With Guided Hand and the fact that Gozreh's Trident is a touch attack, hitting should be a non-issue. Defensively, Wisdom-to-AC with bracers of armor and a little dodge means you can run around wearing a tattered, weedy, 'crazy old man' robe without too much worry.
Besides getting to zap the crap out of things, you can cast Aura of Doom and/or Archon's Aura beforehand to inflict some pretty mean debuffs on anything within 20 feet. Instrument of Agony - also potentially cast before a battle - can let you smack something with will-save-or-nauseated as a free action when you zap it with your lightning bolt.
Empowered Admonishing Ray can drop a pretty good non-lethal punch, and by the end, Dazing Admonishing Ray can force three saves vs daze on someone whose saves are crippled by your auras.
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What did you say about my Mom? The Human born-of-Hobgoblin Oracle of Battle who disarms you and then terrifies you. (only spells and skills relevant listed)
NE Medium humanoid (human)
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Offense
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Melee light flail +14/+9 (1d8+4/19-20)
Oracle Spells Known (CL 11th; concentration +18):
. . 5th (5/day)—(whatever)
. . 4th (7/day)—aura of doom (DC 21)
. . 3rd (8/day)—vision of hell (DC 20)
. . 2nd (8/day)—weapon of agony, weapon of awe (DC 19)
. . 1st (8/day)—cause fear (DC 18) (illegal for this challenge, left in as reference), doom (DC 18),
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 24
Base Atk +8; CMB +14 (+23 disarm); CMD 25 (27 vs. disarm)
Feats Dazzling Display, Demoralizing Lash[ARG], Disheartening Display, Extra Revelation[APG], Greater Disarm, Greater Weapon Focus (light flail), Improved Critical (light flail), Improved Disarm, Racial Heritage[APG], Taskmaster[ARG], Terrorizing Display[ARG], Weapon Focus (light flail)
Traits bully, reactionary
Skills Diplomacy +21, Intimidate +22, Survival +0 (+2 to avoid becoming lost)
Languages Common
SQ defiant mind, interaction bonus, mysteries (mystery [battle]), oracle's curses (legalistic), revelations (maneuver mastery - disarm, skill at arms, surprising charge, war sight, weapon mastery), vow to self
Other Gear light flail, belt of giant strength +2, elixir of thundering voice, gauntlet of the skilled maneuver (disarm), headband of alluring charisma +4, dusty rose prism ioun stone, wayfinder, 142 gp
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Special Abilities
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Dazzling Display (Light flail) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Defiant Mind At 10th level, you can make a new saving throw each minute to resist mind-affecting effects as your subconscious searches for loopholes.
Demoralizing Lash If you hit a demoralized foe with a whip or flail weapon, extends shaken by 1 round.
Disheartening Display (Light flail) Increase the fear of Dazzling Display by one step.
Greater Disarm When disarming a foe, their weapon lands 15 ft away in a random direction.
Improved Disarm You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when disarming.
Interaction Bonus +3 bonus to one-on-one Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks.
Legalistic The shackles of Hell impose savage consequences should you violate a covenant, but also imbue you with remarkable guile. Whenever you break your word (either purposefully or unintentionally), you become sickened for 24 hours or until you meet your ob
Maneuver Mastery - Disarm +3 (Ex) Selected maneuver uses your oracle level in place of BAB.
Racial Heritage (Hobgoblin) You count as another race for the purpose of prerequisites.
Surprising Charge (2/day) (Ex) Move your speed as an immediate action.
Taskmaster Ally gains +2 atk, dmg, Will save vs mind effects, but -2 AC & skill checks.
Terrorizing Display Spur allies in 30 ft. as Taskmaster when you use Dazzling Display.
Vow to Self (1/day) +4 morale bonus to one role to keep a promise.
War Sight (Su) Take your choice of 3 initiative rolls. Always act in the surprise round.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs)
Take the elixir of thundering voice (+10 competence bonus to Intimidate for 1 hr), throw on weapon of agony if you want another +2 to intimidate for total of Intimidate +34
Cast Aura of Doom (which lasts 110 minutes) or plain Doom to get shaken status, then use Disheartening Display to make them frightened (using DD also triggers Terrorizing Display on allies).
You can probably tweak the feats but the central concept is shaken condition via spells and then bump that to frightened with Disheartening Display. With the crazy amount of spell slots left open, you can cherry pick your secondary role (most like buffed disarm/dps skirmisher).