Question: Does the Warpriest's sacred weapon ability to override the damage of a weapon mean that a whip can do 1d6 lethal damage to armored foes? If so, as a first level human warpriest, being able to do weapon focus (whip), weapon finesse and slashing grace just became awesome.
(...)Whenever the warpriest hits with his sacred weapon, the weapon damage is based on his level and not the weapon type(...)
(...)This increase in damage does not affect any other aspect of the weapon, and doesn't apply to alchemical items, bombs, or other weapons that only deal energy damage.
Using a strict RAW reading I think the whip would deal 1d6 damage, but would still be unable to hurt armored foes since the only thing that changes is the die size, not the type of damage or how it interacts with the target.
That said, for a home game I certainly wouldn't have an issue with a warpriest being able to deal lethal damage with a whip.
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Whip Mastery at 3rd it is then, just to be safe. (I am imagining a high dex warpriestess of Calistria wielding her whip and tearing flesh off of her enemies.)
Make a 1/2 orc with City-Raised (for whip prof) warpriest of Selket (weapon scorpion whip). You start off with a whip that deals lethal sacred weapon damage at start!
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Sacred Weapon doesn't change nonlethal weapons, into lethal weapons.
You are better off just nabbing a Scorpion Whip, using it as a Whip, and be able to deal lethal damage, along with the ability to deal damage to armored foes, whilst doing Sacred Weapon damage.
Actually you'd need Exotic Weapon: Scorpion Whip to do lethal damage with it (and without reach, as Scorpion Whips don't have reach, etc) If you ALSO have Exotic Weapon: Whip, then you can also use a Scorpion Whip as a regular whip (e.g. with 15' reach, no lethal damage, etc)
Even if you have both exotic weapon proficiencies, it may be a challenge to find a deity that grants scorpion whip as a divine weapon.
Even if you have both exotic weapon proficiencies, it may be a challenge to find a deity that grants scorpion whip as a divine weapon.
Ah... 'points to my last post' Selket maybe?
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Sacred Weapon doesn't change nonlethal weapons, into lethal weapons.
You are better off just nabbing a Scorpion Whip, using it as a Whip, and be able to deal lethal damage, along with the ability to deal damage to armored foes, whilst doing Sacred Weapon damage.
Actually you'd need Exotic Weapon: Scorpion Whip to do lethal damage with it (and without reach, as Scorpion Whips don't have reach, etc) If you ALSO have Exotic Weapon: Whip, then you can also use a Scorpion Whip as a regular whip (e.g. with 15' reach, no lethal damage, etc)
Even if you have both exotic weapon proficiencies, it may be a challenge to find a deity that grants scorpion whip as a divine weapon.
Oh?
This all news to me.
Are saying a Scorpion Whip, used as a Whip, deal nonlethal?
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Sacred Weapon doesn't change nonlethal weapons, into lethal weapons.
You are better off just nabbing a Scorpion Whip, using it as a Whip, and be able to deal lethal damage, along with the ability to deal damage to armored foes, whilst doing Sacred Weapon damage.
Actually you'd need Exotic Weapon: Scorpion Whip to do lethal damage with it (and without reach, as Scorpion Whips don't have reach, etc) If you ALSO have Exotic Weapon: Whip, then you can also use a Scorpion Whip as a regular whip (e.g. with 15' reach, no lethal damage, etc)
Even if you have both exotic weapon proficiencies, it may be a challenge to find a deity that grants scorpion whip as a divine weapon.
Oh?
This all news to me.
Are saying a Scorpion Whip, used as a Whip, deal nonlethal?
Yep. The scorpion whip and whip are two seperate weapons with two separate stat blocks, and as exotic weapons require two different exotic weapon proficiency feats. However the scorpion whip has that special rule where if the wielder is also proficient with normal whips, the scorpion whip may be used as either type of weapon. The rule doesn't describe combining stat blocks, so you have to use a scorpion whip in one 'mode' at a time rather than combining both weapons into one.
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Yep. The scorpion whip and whip are two separate weapons with two separate stat blocks, and as exotic weapons require two different exotic weapon proficiency feats. However the scorpion whip has that special rule where if the wielder is also proficient with normal whips, the scorpion whip may be used as either type of weapon. The rule doesn't describe combining stat blocks, so you have to use a scorpion whip in one 'mode' at a time rather than combining both weapons into one.Sacred Weapon doesn't change nonlethal weapons, into lethal weapons.
You are better off just nabbing a Scorpion Whip, using it as a Whip, and be able to deal lethal damage, along with the ability to deal damage to armored foes, whilst doing Sacred Weapon damage.
Actually you'd need Exotic Weapon: Scorpion Whip to do lethal damage with it (and without reach, as Scorpion Whips don't have reach, etc) If you ALSO have Exotic Weapon: Whip, then you can also use a Scorpion Whip as a regular whip (e.g. with 15' reach, no lethal damage, etc)
Even if you have both exotic weapon proficiencies, it may be a challenge to find a deity that grants scorpion whip as a divine weapon.
Oh?
This all news to me.
Are saying a Scorpion Whip, used as a Whip, deal nonlethal?
Citation?
Many posts and FAQ clicks later, we still don't know how the hell the Scorpion Whip is supposed to work.
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Citation?
Light Exotic Weapon:
Scorpion whip 5 gp 1d3 1d4 ×2 — 3 lbs. S PerformanceOne Handed Exotic Weapon:
Whip 1 gp 1d2 1d3 ×2 — 2 lbs. S Disarm, nonlethal, reach, trip
So, the whip and scorpion whip not only have very different stat blocks, they're completely different types of weapons to boot, in the eyes of the rules.
This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
Bolded for emphasis. It doesn't say anything about using a scorpion whip as a combined scorpion whip/whip. It just says "as a whip" which is a defined, statted weapon that does no lethal damage, and etc.
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Citation?
Light Exotic Weapon:
Scorpion whip 5 gp 1d3 1d4 ×2 — 3 lbs. S PerformanceOne Handed Exotic Weapon:
Whip 1 gp 1d2 1d3 ×2 — 2 lbs. S Disarm, nonlethal, reach, tripSo, the whip and scorpion whip not only have very different stat blocks, they're completely different types of weapons to boot, in the eyes of the rules.
Bolded for emphasis. It doesn't say anything about using a scorpion whip as a combined scorpion whip/whip. It just says "as a whip" which is a defined, statted weapon that does no lethal damage, and etc.
This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
As BBT mentioned, there are a lot of bones with the scorpion whip, as written.
For example, how do you justify the change from no reach to 15' reach, just by using it "as a whip"?
That is more than just a minor change in how it is used, that is a major change in the way it works. Where does the extra 10' of weapon come from? We won't even discuss the disarm, trip and non-lethal differences... Nor whether a scorpion whip in whip mode is stopped by armor from doing any damage at all...
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I don't how you got them, but if you actually have answers, I would love to hear them, and know how you came to these conclusions.
My answer comes from applying Occam's Razor.
Sure, the wording on the rule could be better written, but perhaps.. just perhaps, there hasn't been a FAQ or Erratum on it because if you choose to read it the way that doesn't require a ton of explanation, then there isn't explanation required...
If you want to overanalyze, you can find ways to obfuscate the rule. But if you choose to, you can read it fairly cleanly to mean:
"When proficient in both whips and scorpion whips, and wielding a scorpion whip, you can choose to use the scorpion whip as a regular whip instead of a scorpion whip."
If you don't want it to mean that, then perhaps consider that the lack of a FAQ or Erratum changing the rule is silent support for that reading I suggested.
Barring that, there's always Rule Zero. The GM can make any rule he wants, and you can do what you want with Scorpion Whips at any rate.
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What I want it to mean?
I want it to make sense.
Do you threaten with a Scorpion Whip?
Does it provoke when used?
What action is it to switch "modes"?
Do feats, abilities, and spells treat the weapon differently depending on which "mode" it is being used in?
When in hand, prior to using it all, what "mode" is it in?
Also, note:
"Occam's Razor" is your way of shifting the burden of proof.
You say the weapon works in a clear, and concise way.
I say it is unclear.
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This discussion stems from there being 2 differently written versions of the Scorpion whip.
Exotic onehanded melee weapon
Scorpion whip 5 gp 1d3 1d4 ×2 — 3 lbs. S disarm, reach, trip
Text:
Scorpion Whip: This whip has a series of razorsharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip.
Sean K Reynolds wrote: A scorpion whip uses the same rules as the whip in the PFRPG Core Rulebook, except (1) it deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses, and (2) the stats in the table.
Exotic light melee weapon
Scorpion whip 5 gp 1d3 1d4 ×2 — 3 lbs S performance
Text:
Scorpion Whip: This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
In conclusion, by going with the tables and text as provided, if you are not proficient with whips, but are proficient with scorpion whips you have according to Ultimate Combat an 1d4 x2 perform slashing weapon.
Adventurer's armory gives you a 1d4 x2 15ft reach, trip, disarm slashing weapon that provokes an attack of oppertunity when using it within a threatened square and does not threaten.
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"Occam's Razor" is your way of shifting the burden of proof.
You say the weapon works in a clear, and concise way.
I say it is unclear.
You are correct in that it is unclear in at least some way. I was saying that by applying Occam's Razor, one can see which way to read it is less unclear and is thus probably the way to go.
In further detail, one can read the rule in such a way that one must answer the following question:
"How do you switch between whip and scorpion whip?"
You can alternately read it and have to answer:
"How do you combine the stat blocks?"
Given that there are already numerous "modal" abilities out there that have you make an "on or off" decision at the start of your round, and that decision lasts until the beginning of your next round (example: Power Attack) it doesn't seem like a big revelation to apply that preexisting standard to the scorpion whip's ability.
What has less precedent and thus is more problematic is combining the stats of two weapons into one weapon. Do they always combine all stats? if not, what stats are combined? Under what circumstances? Etc.
Couple that "choice" of reading the rule with the context of many users hitting "FAQ" and the developers choosing not to issue one, they are making one of three statements:
"The rules interact in the simplest way, like or exactly like my first example that doesn't require any additional rules."
or
"We don't care."
or
"It's too hard an answer to give you one yet. We're still working on it."
What's the most likely scenario? So, yes, I don't have any citable proof of what the devs think. I just have a standard of what's most reasonable, and that's what I've been going off of. Call it just my house rule if it makes sense to you to do so.
If we're talking about PFS and you want an exact answer beyond what some user without a golem said on the forums, then you're sadly out of luck. You'll just have to make your own ruling as GM, or accept another GM's decision when you're playing. I'd advise keeping in mind that even in PFS a GM is not obligated to interpret a rule in your favor just because your build depends on it.
Yeaaaaaah. Just take Whip Mastery and avoid the headache of the Scorpion Whip unless your DM is willing to house rule it in your favor. Hell, if you aren't playing PFS and are house ruling anyway, see if you can use a Whip Dagger from 3.0.
Yeah, or the deadly enchant for one's whip. Problem solved without the feat tax all while remaining PFS legal.
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This discussion stems from there being 2 differently written versions of the Scorpion whip.
** spoiler omitted **
Sean K Reynolds wrote: A scorpion whip uses the same rules as the whip in the PFRPG Core Rulebook, except (1) it deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses, and (2) the stats in the table.** spoiler omitted **
In conclusion, by going with the tables and text as provided, if you are not proficient with whips, but are proficient with scorpion whips you have according to Ultimate Combat an 1d4 x2 perform slashing weapon.
Adventurer's armory gives you a 1d4 x2 15ft reach, trip, disarm slashing weapon that provokes an attack of oppertunity when using it within a threatened square and does not threaten.
Interesting point, but you're ignoring chronology.
UE came out two years after SKR's clarification to Adventurer's Armory. If UE wanted that clarification to be the rule, it'd be there. And it isn't. And thus his clarification is to a version of the weapon that has been removed/rendered obsolete and is accordingly pointless, with regards to the scorpion whip as presented in UE.
Perhaps they deliberately changed SKR's ruling as of UE. Maybe they didn't and forgot to include it. You'll have to make that decision for yourself.
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Interesting point, but you're ignoring chronology.UE came out two years after SKR's clarification to Adventurer's Armory. If UE wanted that clarification to be the rule, it'd be there. And it isn't. And thus his clarification is to a version of the weapon that has been removed/rendered obsolete and is accordingly pointless, with regards to the scorpion whip as presented in UE.
Perhaps they deliberately changed SKR's ruling as of UE. Maybe they didn't and forgot to include it. You'll have to make that decision for yourself.
I was thinking along the same lines. UE invalidates AA, right? Makes sense. But there's not actually any statement to that effect, not in UE, not in any FAQ, not in the Additional Resources for PFS.
"If UE wanted that clarification to be the rule, it would be there" - come on, you know Paizo's editorial standards. Never attribute to hidden agenda what can be adequately explained by sloppe oversights.
We have 3 sets of rules.
1) Unclarified AA rules: One-handed exotic weapon; disarm, reach, trip; if you're proficient with whip, you're proficient with this.
2) Clarified AA rules: It's a whip, except slightly heavier, slightly more expensive, always deals lethal damage, does not have the whip's problem with armored targets.
3) UE rules: It's a light weapon that doesn't have reach or trip. If you're proficient with a whip, you can uncoil the 10'+ length of the weapon that you apparently weren't using.
Ruleset #3 is garbled nonsense. Fortunately, there's nothing forcing you to use it.
