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I really want to like the strangler archetype for the brawler, but I'm a little confused. He gains the strangle ability which allows him to deal sneak attack damage while grappling, but gives up the brawler's unarmed strike ability. That means, at first level, he can't grapple better than anyone else unless he takes Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple. He also gains the Stealth skill, so maybe he's supposed to sneak up on people?
Am I getting that right? If so, how would you play him? I guess the strangler is supposed to use melee weapons unless he gets the chance to sneak up on someone and choke them?
Thanks if anyone can help me wrap my head around this otherwise-awesome concept.
Oops. I think you've lost your way a bit and ended up in the card game part of the message board. The brawler hasn't appeared in the card game yet, let alone any archetype for her.
I am sure a moderator will be along to get you back where you belong, but while you are here why not sample the wonderful fares offered for the ennie award winning card game? So you like pirates? We've got pirates. Even a goblin one. How about old fashioned fantasy? We've got that too. Pretty soon, we'll even have mythic-ness.
Anyway, good luck finding the answer to your question.
Bumping this. The archetype doesn't make sense at all.
No Improved Unarmed Strike, no Improved Grapple, which means strangle is incredibly difficult to use.
Without Improved Grapple(which, to even take at 1st level with this archetype, would require you to be playing a Human), you're looking at a CMB of +4(MAYBE +6), and the opponent would have to be flat footed(without combat reflexes) in order for it not to provoke.
Yeah, they get stealth. Whoop-de-doo. They're missing a pretty big aspect of the build at the outset.
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tro1984 wrote: Bumping this. The archetype doesn't make sense at all.
No Improved Unarmed Strike, no Improved Grapple, which means strangle is incredibly difficult to use.
Without Improved Grapple(which, to even take at 1st level with this archetype, would require you to be playing a Human), you're looking at a CMB of +4(MAYBE +6), and the opponent would have to be flat footed(without combat reflexes) in order for it not to provoke.
Yeah, they get stealth. Whoop-de-doo. They're missing a pretty big aspect of the build at the outset.
Oh, no! You have to spend feats to make your character concept work? What blasphemy is this!?
Very, very few builds, archetypes and character concepts come online at level 1. But you get a bonus feat as brawler at level 2, in addition to having martial manuevers, giving you temporary Improved Grapple at level 1 if you must have it.
Speaking from experience as a strangler/snake bite striker brawler in RoW, this archetype is great. Grappling shuts down full attack actions, spells, dodgy enemies with high touch AC, etc. Well worth your opening round. Strangler with Snakebite Striker gives you easy solo sneak attack dps just for grabbing them, which you can get extra mileage out of with Greater Grapple and Grabbing Style. Stealth is for Bushwack, which makes breaking their CMD hilariously easy. For extra fun, dip a level of Shadow Dancer for HIPS, have allies cast darkness on you and pull enemies into shadows and leave behind broken necked corpses.
Davic The Grey wrote: tro1984 wrote: Bumping this. The archetype doesn't make sense at all.
No Improved Unarmed Strike, no Improved Grapple, which means strangle is incredibly difficult to use.
Without Improved Grapple(which, to even take at 1st level with this archetype, would require you to be playing a Human), you're looking at a CMB of +4(MAYBE +6), and the opponent would have to be flat footed(without combat reflexes) in order for it not to provoke.
Yeah, they get stealth. Whoop-de-doo. They're missing a pretty big aspect of the build at the outset.
Oh, no! You have to spend feats to make your character concept work? What blasphemy is this!?
Very, very few builds, archetypes and character concepts come online at level 1. But you get a bonus feat as brawler at level 2, in addition to having martial manuevers, giving you temporary Improved Grapple at level 1 if you must have it.
Speaking from experience as a strangler/snake bite striker brawler in RoW, this archetype is great. Grappling shuts down full attack actions, spells, dodgy enemies with high touch AC, etc. Well worth your opening round. Strangler with Snakebite Striker gives you easy solo sneak attack dps just for grabbing them, which you can get extra mileage out of with Greater Grapple and Grabbing Style. Stealth is for Bushwack, which makes breaking their CMD hilariously easy. For extra fun, dip a level of Shadow Dancer for HIPS, have allies cast darkness on you and pull enemies into shadows and leave behind broken necked corpses. It's not spending feats, it's require feats. At minimum, some type of ability that allows you grapple with out provoking would be nice, because as I mentioned, unless you play a human, you can't get Improved Grapple at first level.
As far as stealth goes, you simply can't manage to get stealth on guys all the time.
It's not missing a lot, I'm not asking to have IMprove Grapple added for free, but the ability to take it WITHOUT unarmed strike, or the ability to initiate a grapple with out provoking would make the set up make sense.
Another thread
It's a villain class.
tro1984 wrote: Davic The Grey wrote: tro1984 wrote: Bumping this. The archetype doesn't make sense at all.
No Improved Unarmed Strike, no Improved Grapple, which means strangle is incredibly difficult to use.
Without Improved Grapple(which, to even take at 1st level with this archetype, would require you to be playing a Human), you're looking at a CMB of +4(MAYBE +6), and the opponent would have to be flat footed(without combat reflexes) in order for it not to provoke.
Yeah, they get stealth. Whoop-de-doo. They're missing a pretty big aspect of the build at the outset.
Oh, no! You have to spend feats to make your character concept work? What blasphemy is this!?
Very, very few builds, archetypes and character concepts come online at level 1. But you get a bonus feat as brawler at level 2, in addition to having martial manuevers, giving you temporary Improved Grapple at level 1 if you must have it.
Speaking from experience as a strangler/snake bite striker brawler in RoW, this archetype is great. Grappling shuts down full attack actions, spells, dodgy enemies with high touch AC, etc. Well worth your opening round. Strangler with Snakebite Striker gives you easy solo sneak attack dps just for grabbing them, which you can get extra mileage out of with Greater Grapple and Grabbing Style. Stealth is for Bushwack, which makes breaking their CMD hilariously easy. For extra fun, dip a level of Shadow Dancer for HIPS, have allies cast darkness on you and pull enemies into shadows and leave behind broken necked corpses. It's not spending feats, it's require feats. At minimum, some type of ability that allows you grapple with out provoking would be nice, because as I mentioned, unless you play a human, you can't get Improved Grapple at first level.
As far as stealth goes, you simply can't manage to get stealth on guys all the time.
It's not missing a lot, I'm not asking to have IMprove Grapple added for free, but the ability to take it WITHOUT unarmed strike, or the ability to... Still missing the brawler class feature that slows you down but still allows you to act like you have Improved Grapple for about 3 fights a day until you can get IG at level 2. And at level 1, it's not like you'll be doing more than 3 encounters a day. And even if you do, there is always punching for a level.
Still not seeing why this is so extremely horrible. Is it annoying? Yes. Does it ruin the archetype? NO.
Davic The Grey wrote: tro1984 wrote: Davic The Grey wrote: tro1984 wrote: Bumping this. The archetype doesn't make sense at all.
No Improved Unarmed Strike, no Improved Grapple, which means strangle is incredibly difficult to use.
Without Improved Grapple(which, to even take at 1st level with this archetype, would require you to be playing a Human), you're looking at a CMB of +4(MAYBE +6), and the opponent would have to be flat footed(without combat reflexes) in order for it not to provoke.
Yeah, they get stealth. Whoop-de-doo. They're missing a pretty big aspect of the build at the outset.
Oh, no! You have to spend feats to make your character concept work? What blasphemy is this!?
Very, very few builds, archetypes and character concepts come online at level 1. But you get a bonus feat as brawler at level 2, in addition to having martial manuevers, giving you temporary Improved Grapple at level 1 if you must have it.
Speaking from experience as a strangler/snake bite striker brawler in RoW, this archetype is great. Grappling shuts down full attack actions, spells, dodgy enemies with high touch AC, etc. Well worth your opening round. Strangler with Snakebite Striker gives you easy solo sneak attack dps just for grabbing them, which you can get extra mileage out of with Greater Grapple and Grabbing Style. Stealth is for Bushwack, which makes breaking their CMD hilariously easy. For extra fun, dip a level of Shadow Dancer for HIPS, have allies cast darkness on you and pull enemies into shadows and leave behind broken necked corpses. It's not spending feats, it's require feats. At minimum, some type of ability that allows you grapple with out provoking would be nice, because as I mentioned, unless you play a human, you can't get Improved Grapple at first level.
As far as stealth goes, you simply can't manage to get stealth on guys all the time.
It's not missing a lot, I'm not asking to have IMprove Grapple added for free, but the ability to take it WITHOUT unarmed ... Its not whining about fulfilling a character concept by spending feat slots....you have a strangler that presumably uses unarmed strike as its main attack and you took it away...its like telling a fighter they have to spend a feat to wield a club and then another to wear light armor...thats what they do... but if youre gonna take that away...give something in return...the exchange for strangle....the class trait is called Strangle ....the exchange for strangle is losing unarmed strike AND brawlers flurry ...so to gain always flanking and 4d6 sneak attack damage you give up improved unarmed strike feat,two weapon feat,Improved TWF,Greater TWF...and any feat that allows you to deal full strength damage for your off hand like Double slice feat...plus the higher unarmed damage table....thats at least 5 feats and a better unarmed damage a strangler gives up...I think the Strangler should AT LEAST work off the brawler table for better unarmed damage
Think you're missing the purpose of this archetype - If you're planning on grappling a lot, flurry doesn't mean jack. You can't perform flurry of grapples anyway, even with the whole grapple feat chain. Grapple is a standard action, and later you can attempt multiple grappling attempts in the same round (greater grapple/rapid grapple). The strangler archetype's strength is its ability to do sneak attack damage *while* putting someone into a hold. It's the only archetype that really allows you to do "free" damage while grappling - though to be fair to your argument, it wouldn't matter anyway - you could just complete the entire grappling chain (hold, pin, tie-up ----> coup de gras/leave 'em there, they're out of the fight) and couping someone's way more effective *if* your goal is just to take enemies out swiftly. If your goal is to make them suffer and die painfully/break them into a little meaty pretzel, the strangler is the build for you.
I personally feel like there are better options for grappler characters (whip masters, sap masters, etc), but if you're dealing with grapples against high cmd opponents, this archetype shines (brawler's cmb bonuses, and maneuver feats/flexibility). You don't need flurry attacks if you're trying to wrap someone up and choke the life out them: you just latch on and deal sneak attack damage twice or thrice a round with rapid/greater grappling (+whatever damage you would normally inflict.) Of course, it'll take quite a few levels to even get the higher end grapple feats, but it's not so much an optimization thing, as a flavor thing. If some dm started inviting all players to the pit fight of the century, it wouldn't be the build I'd pick, but who knows, somewhere out there, a player is saying "you know, I really want to play a serial killer guy, and this strangler archetype's right up my alley".
Aemesh wrote: Think you're missing the purpose of this archetype - If you're planning on grappling a lot, flurry doesn't mean jack. You can't perform flurry of grapples anyway, even with the whole grapple feat chain. Grapple is a standard action, and later you can attempt multiple grappling attempts in the same round (greater grapple/rapid grapple). The strangler archetype's strength is its ability to do sneak attack damage *while* putting someone into a hold. It's the only archetype that really allows you to do "free" damage while grappling - though to be fair to your argument, it wouldn't matter anyway - you could just complete the entire grappling chain (hold, pin, tie-up ----> coup de gras/leave 'em there, they're out of the fight) and couping someone's way more effective *if* your goal is just to take enemies out swiftly. If your goal is to make them suffer and die painfully/break them into a little meaty pretzel, the strangler is the build for you.
I personally feel like there are better options for grappler characters (whip masters, sap masters, etc), but if you're dealing with grapples against high cmd opponents, this archetype shines (brawler's cmb bonuses, and maneuver feats/flexibility). You don't need flurry attacks if you're trying to wrap someone up and choke the life out them: you just latch on and deal sneak attack damage twice or thrice a round with rapid/greater grappling (+whatever damage you would normally inflict.) Of course, it'll take quite a few levels to even get the higher end grapple feats, but it's not so much an optimization thing, as a flavor thing. If some dm started inviting all players to the pit fight of the century, it wouldn't be the build I'd pick, but who knows, somewhere out there, a player is saying "you know, I really want to play a serial killer guy, and this strangler archetype's right up my alley".
I get their point....my point was many ended...the taking away of a "needed" ability to perform the very thing you are trained to do...the ,in my humble opinion,extremely lopsided give take of Strangle in lieu of unarmed strike AND brawler's flurry and the prohibition of the increased unarmed damage ...
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You're absolutely right. I don't know why, but the developers do all kinds of weird junk with martial characters that makes ZERO sense (which is gross considering how underpowered they are in this system).
Forcing you to pay a feat tax to use your iconic ability... Martials NEED feats to function, and making you spend 1/5 of your non-bonus feats to turn on a class feature shouldn't be defended by anyone, in my mind.
I will say that the archetype is a decent dip for things like monk or even white haired witch, but I don't agree with designing an archetype to be a 2 level dip.
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