So if I am a high level caster and I have built a wonderful hide what can do to keep out wishing intruders.
Can they wish themselves into my square?
Do active spells count as local conditions?
Can the enter magnificent mansion?
Does dimensional lock keep them out?
Anti magic zone?
Spellbane?
What about surrounding myself with solid materiel?
I tend to thing dimensional lock would keep them out because it stops gate and that is dedicated 8th level spell.
Magnificent mansion is 7th level but has language about only invited guest being allowed in.
What about being inside a rope trick or behemoth golem with 7 other creatures?
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Mindblank plus well hidden location. No one can Wish themselves there if no can knows you're location
I can see that but what if they do know where I am?
Of course if I am the only who has ever seen my plane then if other suspect it they do not actually know it.
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Past a certain point, it all comes down to GM fiat.
If NPC's are burning wishes to reach you, it has already reached that point.
Teleport says, "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." So if your enemy has no idea where your sanctum santorum is, or what it looks like inside, they can't Teleport or use Wish to duplicate Teleport. Bypassing that limit with Wish is dangerous. According to the spell description, "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)"
So to use Wish to get into your hidden lair, they need GM permission. Assuming this is an NPC, they can always get that if the GM thinks it's a reasonable thing to happen in the current circumstances.
I believe lead lined walls will prevent scrying, right? So just don't use the front door of your hideaway (maybe enter and exit with dimension door), so nobody knows it's your place. As JoeJ points out, without knowing where to teleport, they're risking life and (with some DMs, literally) limb to even try it with Wish.
Easiest way is to stay somewhere they can not live through coming into.
If you are immune to a damage effect like fire, cold, poison, or whatever, set up shot surrounded by it.
I have done that before, I played a sorcerer who was immune to fire, I literally built my home inside a vastly with permanized fire wall everywhere.
Also did the same with my undead lord caster, most of my home was wall to wall undead, they always thought I was one, even if they were not under control they still did not notice me.
Make your home a death trap for them.
I wish that the instant someone teleported next to me they would be teleported to <hostile locaton>.
I wish that the instant my previous wish activates I would teleport to <safe location>.
I wish that one second after my previous wish activates an anti-magic field would emanate from the point I just departed.
Edit: To clarify, the enemy characters are entitled to a save against #1, if they make the save they get stranded in an anti-magic field, if they fail, they die.
Teleport Trap
This should pretty much handle uninvited guests. Don't save? They end up in your predetermined location. Save? They simply don't teleport at all, but still waste the spell. Either result keeps them out.
JoeJ wrote: [stuff about duplicating Teleport]
I don't think using Wish to duplicate Teleport is what is in question.
Both Wish and Miracle have error-free transportation regardless of local conditions and/or barriers, as one of their specific example powers, separate from the power to duplicate other spells.
So, someone who used Wish (or Miracle) for transportation would not need to reference Teleport.
That said, information defense is probably the best defense against this, yeah.
Alternately, if someone both knows where you are, and has wish, you're probably going to have trouble keeping them out. But you can certainly make your sanctum visitor-unfriendly.
Coriat wrote: JoeJ wrote: [stuff about duplicating Teleport]
I don't think using Wish to duplicate Teleport is what is in question.
Both Wish and Miracle have error-free transportation regardless of local conditions and/or barriers, as one of their specific example powers, separate from the power to duplicate other spells.
So, someone who used Wish (or Miracle) for transportation would not need to reference Teleport.
That said, information defense is probably the best defense against this, yeah. That shows what I get for posting when I'm tired and caffeine deprived.
So no permanent dimension locks?
It's unclear what are your purpose but, a little bit of thinking outside the box.
What about a contingency?
To either teleport you away as soon as someone reaches you or teleport them away from you?
Technically speaking, they do manage to reach you with a wish.
In practice, as soon as they do they are no longer there, making their wish useless.
Regardless of local conditions means exactly that. A caster who can cast wish can go wherever they please pretty much. I would even say they can teleport right next to a deity. Though, in the very next instant that deity could expel/destroy them. Nothing stops something from happening the very next instant, like, say, a symbol spell activating. But, it could prevent a teleport trap from working because a) it's not a teleport and b) the next instant after you arrive you're no longer 'teleporting' so there's nothing to trap.
So my problem is that "regardless of local conditions" doesn't have a clear meaning.
Personally, I like to limit spells, and as part of that I say antimagic or dead magic cannot be penetrated by any magic. This includes teleporting in, or trying to wish yourself in.
I like limits. If youare the GM, simply set the limit and tell your players that you have done so.
Alternatively, if your are the player and not the GM ask what you can do, if there is any way to stop wishport from allowing someone into your sanctum.
Possible steps:
1)Keep it hidden and secret, that includes any info about who or what is inside your fortress and its layout. Mind Blank, Screen, False Vision and Sequester, among other spells, are your friends.
2)As a follow up to #1 use disinformation as well and hope the foe takes the bait. Be forewarned and set traps (in the big sense of the word). Change portions of the layout regularly.
3) Wish and its use to go anywhere can be/will be very problematic. The goal for me would be two fold. First know as much as possible how your GM is likely to handle it ... maybe they're holding to Claxon's point of view and it'll be moot. If not then secondly, do as much as possible to create conditions which will make it a non-bullet point usage and hopefully that will deter.
4) See if there is anything you can do to make the ejection save harder to make ... a planar trait or something along the lines of gaining a bonus similar to that in the text of Banishment or, perhaps, create an Antipathy effect:
portion of Banishment text wrote: Certain rare items might work twice as well as a normal item for the purpose of the bonuses (each providing a +2 bonus on the caster level check against spell resistance and increasing the save DC by 4). More or less play to Buri's point of making the unwelcomed visitors stay brief (and hopefully painful).
5) The 'normal' entrance via portal. Might be a good area to ward with dead magic or antimagic. Keep in mind that a dead magic or antimagic area does not effect a Prismatic Sphere (or Wall or another area of antimagic). Even if a foe(s) do gain entry to the fortress getting thru to someone (namely you) who's inside a Primatic Sphere within a dead or antimagic area is going to be very problematic ... should give you a very safe 'panic room' to retreat to as needed. Take note of the fun things you might do with the Shape trait. Always entertaining to catch someone with the same trap twice.
6) And last keep in mind if your foe is here, they are not there (at home). Might be the perfect time to use your magic to invade their fortress.
What i would really like to do is set all this up and then astral project out to do whatever I do.
That rules out a dead or antimagic zone but not a rope trick or magnificent mansion. Dimensional lock can be overcome with SR so set mine as high possible then cast 20 times to get out. Spellbane works to but sets up a non locked area.
I tend to thing that a spell is not a local condition but that is DM judgement.
I intend the area to be deadly but I would really like him to have to come in through the front door.
Any way to be inside a golem? Armor is a start but the golem can not act on its own.
Cast astral projection then soul jar something and come back to your original body in that one. Then Minimus Containment on yourself. Put the gem inside the golem with the binding to end if the astral projection ends.
You would have to know to wish yourself inside the golem and that may not be possible at all due to magic immunity.
Claxon wrote: So my problem is that "regardless of local conditions" doesn't have a clear meaning. I don't see how it's not clear. The phrase "regardless of x" is another way of saying that x doesn't matter.
Merriam Webster wrote: Full Definition of REGARDLESS
: despite everything <went ahead with their plans regardless>
It's not clear because there are certain conditions that should supersede even a wish. For instance, a deity's ability to control planar links or their realm. Or, in PF, 'do whatever the hell they want'.
Then there are conditions that logically should prevent a wish. An antimagic plane for instance.
Then there are effects that adjust teleporting effects, sometimes to the point of preventing the teleport or changing its destination. Do these still function? What about effects that do not prevent teleports, but react to them?
Because wish is fairly loosely written without examples, in order to provide maximum flexibility for a DM, the specific intent is going to be less than clear to some people.
Mathius wrote: What i would really like to do is set all this up and then astral project out to do whatever I do. Ok now I get it. A little bit paranoid if you ask me but I guess your game has given you reasons to be. It happens.
Mathius wrote: You would have to know to wish yourself inside the golem and that may not be possible at all due to magic immunity. actually magic immunity does ot apply.
First of all because it applies to spells that allows spell resistance, and wish by itself does not.
Second because the spell would not affect the golem directly.
It would affect the caster and the hollow space inside the golem, but not the golem. To wish the golem to crumble into pieces would. This won't.
Anyway this assumes there is space for both you and your enemy inside the golem.
Best way to avoid being in danger while astral projecting remains the easy one.
Guardians.
Don't get me wrong, go wild with the protections and the contingencies, they surely help.
and lock yourself in a adamantine chest with no space for a second person in order to no be instantly killed by an assassin who happen to win his initiative.
but the most effective last line of defence for when everything else fails... Trusted guardians who keep an eye on you.
They are the only ones whit the ability to react appropriately and adapt to whatever comes your way.
For protections and contingencies, a few suggestions that didn't came up.
1) a decoy. Nothing makes a better job at keeping you safe than something that is just like you and gets killed in your place.
2) Symbol of persuasion. If they manage to reach you you get a shot at charming them, and you don't have to worry about allies being in the same room. Safest symbol spell ever since no matter what or who shows up, there might be things you don't expect showing up that you do not want killed or sleeping, there is absolutely nothing you don't want charmed.
3) protective spells. if anything goes wrong, being helpless and vulnerable or being helpless but with a huge DR, elemental resistances and/or immunities, miss chance, spell resistances, temporary hp it's what may make the difference between an instant kill and giving yourself and your allies the couple of turns you need to deal with the menace.
4) teleport + resurrection contingency. The ultimate fail-safe. they manage to kill you? you are teleported somewhere safe and resurrected immediately. For added security don't teleport in your sanctum. Do something impossible to deal like "based on the second you die you teleport in the main plaza of one of these major cities"
That way you are sure the place you teleport in is not overrun by enemies. Unless they already conquered most of the world.
I have to say ... this is a level of paranoia I'm not used to in my games, but it's fun to create a strategy as watertight as possible
Thank you all.
I am doing this a thought exercise more then anything else. I do not expect to be able to pull this off in real game. Besides I do not see how this could be fun.
I was more thinking of this for BBEG in a game that I run. Even then most games do not get to this point so it is more what could a truly paranoid wizard set up still inside the rules.
Of coarse after you build it you have others look for ways to tear through it. Wishport past most defenses seamed the easiest so I am trying to prevent that.
Mathius wrote: Of coarse after you build it you have others look for ways to tear through it. Wishport past most defenses seamed the easiest so I am trying to prevent that. That's the best part of Rule 0.
It is because you say it is (as a GM).
Kain Darkwind wrote: Then there are effects that adjust teleporting effects, sometimes to the point of preventing the teleport or changing its destination. Do these still function? I tend to think that "regardless of local conditions" refers to conditions that would be relevant in context, i.e. would influence magical transportation. I imagine it is not referring to the weather.
The language does not lend itself to a narrow reading. "Anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions."
Very true Claxon but I am not the GM if I post "The paranoids guide to home security" I want to build something and post it.
This wizard rules a the world and the mighty heros want to depose him. How do you do it?
Mathius wrote: Very true Claxon but I am not the GM if I post "The paranoids guide to home security" I want to build something and post it.
This wizard rules a the world and the mighty heros want to depose him. How do you do it?
With another wizard.*
*Certain specific builds of full spellcasting classes such as cleric may apply to replace wizard.
Mathius wrote: Very true Claxon but I am not the GM if I post "The paranoids guide to home security" I want to build something and post it.
This wizard rules a the world and the mighty heros want to depose him. How do you do it?
Heroically. Almost by definition.
As you point out, "after you build it, you have others look for ways to tear through it" -- nothing designed by a merely mortal mind will be perfect.
I think the wishport is impossible to block -- "regardless of local conditions" is pretty all-encompassing -- but it's easy enough to defend against. A reactive wish, for example, that anyone wishporting in will also be wishported away to the moons of Saturn, or that you be removed to a place of safety, would handle it.
Orfamay Quest wrote: Mathius wrote: Very true Claxon but I am not the GM if I post "The paranoids guide to home security" I want to build something and post it.
This wizard rules a the world and the mighty heros want to depose him. How do you do it?
Heroically. Almost by definition.
As you point out, "after you build it, you have others look for ways to tear through it" -- nothing designed by a merely mortal mind will be perfect.
I think the wishport is impossible to block -- "regardless of local conditions" is pretty all-encompassing -- but it's easy enough to defend against. A reactive wish, for example, that anyone wishporting in will also be wishported away to the moons of Saturn, or that you be removed to a place of safety, would handle it. Largely Wishport is almost by definition impossible to block but that is one reason why I always make it clear to my players early on that any and all Wishes and Miracles draw the attention of, if not the direct intervention of the Powers. If you cast a Wish to transport yourself and the party I'm going to use this to get creative as a GM if I feel I need to. You are trying to desperately escape 'certain death' and I feel the party has overall acted wisely and with some thought then most likely they get lifted from harms way ... and conversely if they are using it as a cheap frequent trick to bypass the adventure and/or acting stupidly then maybe they suddenly find themselves in the presence of a Deity or Power and have some explaining to do or a debt to said Power to pay off for having the temerity to use such Wishes repeatedly or whatever else reminds them not to 'abuse magic'. Actions have consequences, including (or especially) the action of repeatedly spending 25k to cheesily stomp an adventure.
Second it also gets back to the whole how the multiverse of the campaign works per the GM. For example, in the Planescape setting if you get within a 100 miles (as I recall) of the center of the Plane of Concordant Opposition (where the Spire rises up out of sight towards City of Doors aka Sigil) all magic including Divine magic ceases to work. A Wish or Miracle fails by default here even if a Deity is involved (even if the deity is the one using Wish). It goes stepwise and as you get closer to the center you start losing 1st level spells 900 miles out, then 2nd within 800 miles etc.. till magic simple ceases to work. This general idea did not originate with Planescape either but stemmed from earlier thoughts on the subject.
And then of course the GM can always decide that things like Mythic and/or Epic spells and powers can prevent the 'normal' bullet point and beyond usages of Wish as well as getting into deciding just how Wish and Miracle interact with the universe bending rules of Mythic and Epic 'stuff'.
Best bet is strong protections from Divination magic and secrecy. I once ran a BBEG who almost always teleported to his secret home, always Mind Blanked etc. Once home he always took a quick, immediate few steps and walked thru a Permanent Prismatic Wall under the assumption that if some foe had Shapeshifted and was taking a 'ride along' with him as a flea or bit of dirt etc. that when he moved thru the Prismatic Wall it would strip any such unwelcomed riders off even if he was unaware of them (owing to whatever protections the intruder had going) He also had a fair number of false doors about the structure which if he became aware of any stealthy intruders tailing him or the like, he'd open the false door and the Symbol on the inside would get activated hopefully with unpleasant results for the intruder(s). Obviously also worked fine if any of the intruders opened the false door(s) themselves as well. He even had a few with Permanent Phase Doors behind the false door+symbol set ups.
Good ideas. Gonna have to work that in.
Use the simulacra and clone spells like crazy, have 200 "bases" that all look exactly the same, all have a dormant clone in it, you just pop into whichever you happen to want at the time.
I thought you could only have one clone at a time.
1. polymorph any object yourself into a sprite
2. equip belt of the weasel
3. enter a demi-plane that is only 6" x 6" x 6"
You will be squeezing but that does not effect casting.
I could not find a fine form capable of casting.
This would be better if it could be done with a form of spell but I can not find diminutive form that can spell cast. If you one is available you can combine it with reduce person to become fine.
That would allow a 3" x 3" x 3" demi-plane.
Wishport may allow you to enter someones space but even a diminutive creature needs a 6" x 6" x 3" space to squeeze into.
There are creatures small enough to enter this space with you but I do not think any of them can cast. That would give you huge advantage.
Immunity to crits will stop a coup de grace but a strong creature or one with dex to damage can do a lot a damage fast but this should buy you at least a round and maybe more.
Going to want a contingent dispel magic set to end your astral projection if anything else enters the plane with you.
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