I'm a RAW kind of guy, and so when I was reading the entry for Keen, an odd situation struck me.
This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll. This benefit doesn't stack with any other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).
For a weapon that does Bludgeoning or Piercing, such as the Cestus, it's obvious that you can at least apply the Keen ability. The question I have is whether or not that effect would still apply while doing Bludgeoning damage with the Cestus.
I understand that, by RAI, probably no. However, Keen doesn't say that it affects Piercing and Slashing damage, it says that it affects Piercing and Slashing weapons, which are two different things. The Cestus counts for this.
I know this seems nit-picky and ineffective, but it's important to me to know whether there is an official ruling on this. There's an awesome PFS character I'm planning out that wields Cestuses (Cesti?), and he could really benefit from the improved crit range, but it's important that he deals Bludgeoning damage with them, not Piercing.
Reading the word only, could just as well be "does it do slashing/piercing damage? yes. Then it's a slashing/piercing weapon.
There is the transformative special ability that allows a weapon to transform into other similar weapon. It retains special abilities in all forms, but special abilities not applicable to that weapon have no effect, it says in an example that keen on a bludgeoning weapon has no effect.
Building on that example (how I would rule):
Keen can be put on a morningstar. It will double the threat range for most attacks. However if the keen morningstar is used to attack a skeleton with DR 5/bludgeoning, the morningstar would not gain the benefit of being keen.*
If the weapon allows for a choice of damage type, then keen is applicable, but has no effect when dealing bludgeoning damage.
I would rule the same for way for feats and class features changing damage type.
* (one could make up some schrodinger's hit rule, where a potential crit could do more than the DR and allow. This would be "roll both cases and take the most advantageous." I would not use this, but for a damage calculator, I might include it for fun...)
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Phew, looks like it's just as ambiguous as I thought. I'll probably just save my GMs the headache and burn a feat on Improved Critical down the line. Thanks for the quick responses.
You certainly can. It *is* a piercing weapon, and thus qualifies for keen. The bonus applies no matter what type of damage you're using.
You certainly can. It *is* a piercing weapon, and thus qualifies for keen. The bonus applies no matter what type of damage you're using.
That's how it reads to me.
*nod*
The keen ability is only dependent on the weapon itself, not how you use it, not if you're changing its damage type.
If it is piercing or slashing, you can keen it, and it will work. Period.
daimaru, I don't see the confusion. You have two options. Either you think that they weapon requires it you ONLY have 'piercing or slashing' As it's ONLY option or all you need if a P or a S in the type column.
IMO #1 seems silly. Why would a shortsword (P) be ineligible while a Gladius (P or S) would.
#2 seems the only option that makes sense. All you need is a P or S on the table and it works.
You certainly should be able to take keen on cesti as they do deal piercing damage. But the bonus shouldn't apply when they are being used for bludgeoning damage because then it doesn't matter how sharp they are.daimaru, I don't see the confusion. You have two options. Either you think that they weapon requires it you ONLY have 'piercing or slashing' As it's ONLY option or all you need if a P or a S in the type column.
IMO #1 seems silly. Why would a shortsword (P) be ineligible while a Gladius (P or S) would.
#2 seems the only option that makes sense. All you need is a P or S on the table and it works.
But it says 'piercing or slashing' can be enchanted. How can a cesti have it at all when it requires an entry of 'piercing or slashing'?
Or maybe what makes more sense it that it just requires one of those types as the base weapon. Note no where does it say "This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon only when dealing slashing or piercing damage" ;)
It isnt obvious i agree, awhile back there was a discussion on vorpal and keen.
Sigh i wont give my opionion on RAW because in my home games i could see it limiting cool weapon concepts (ex. I want vorpal daggers lol) as long as it made sense some what. Im a fool for flavor.
Which is exactly why I would like a definitive answer. You and Zhayne see an obvious answer where I see the opposite answer as obvious.So it's clearly not obvious.
It seems fairly clear that it doesn't have a limit based of damage type dealt because of the fact that it doesn't state that in the ability. You're asking them to clarify something that isn't in the rules... :P
The ability simply limits the type of weapon you can enchant and places no limitation on the damage dealt. No matter how you read it, it says nothing about damage type dealt.
You want to really blow your mind, think about using the Weapon Versatility feat to use a Keen dagger to deal blunt damage!
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It could be done that it only applies to correct damage type and let the player decide. If a weapon does B/P
player could do blunt and no crit to a skeleton no DR
Or use P and have increased crit and 5 DR
Or just let them increase the crit on both.
Either works but is it worth the extra confusion? To me no.
Which is exactly why I would like a definitive answer. You and Zhayne see an obvious answer where I see the opposite answer as obvious.So it's clearly not obvious.
It seems fairly clear that it doesn't have a limit based of damage type dealt because of the fact that it doesn't state that in the ability. You're asking them to clarify something that isn't in the rules... :P
The ability simply limits the type of weapon you can enchant and places no limitation on the damage dealt. No matter how you read it, it says nothing about damage type dealt.
You want to really blow your mind, think about using the Weapon Versatility feat to use a Keen dagger to deal blunt damage!
If you read the Transformative description, there is an example using keen: "(blah blah)... but cannot use the keen special ability when in the shape of a bludgeoning weapon."
That is not a rule specific to the Transformative special ability, it's an example of the standard rules, which suggest that bludgeoning weapons cannot use keen.
So what is fairly clear to you, is not at all clear to me. He's asking to clarify something that the rules are vague on... :P
If you read the Transformative description, there is an example using keen: "(blah blah)... but cannot use the keen special ability when in the shape of a bludgeoning weapon."That is not a rule specific to the Transformative special ability, it's an example of the standard rules, which suggest that bludgeoning weapons cannot use keen.
So what is fairly clear to you, is not at all clear to me. He's asking to clarify something that the rules are vague on... :P
"That is not a rule specific to the Transformative special ability". Prove it. it's NOT a ruling under a generic heading (all magic weapons), it's under a single enchantment.
I can agree with seebs on RAW and RAI. To get #2, there has to be a rule that isn't in the books; Weapon type equals the current damage being done with the weapon. If that's be true that someone using a keen transformitive dagger as a club but using the Weapon Versatility feat to deal slashing could still activate the enchantment even though it's a blunt weapon since it retroactively changes back into a slashing weapon.
I'd be fine with such a rule, it's just that none exists.
daimaru, there is no rule that the damage type dealt changes the weapon type. There just isn't. You are saying it is because that's how you think it should be. That's cool and all by let me break it down to you.
The rule books list weapons with their type. Now to alter that's written, you'd need another rule to do it. Since there isn't, it doesn't. To do otherwise is making stuff up.
I have proof, what's written in the book. I've asked YOU for proof for your point of view. So I've proven my side and you haven't with yours. That doesn't seem like what you're saying.
this boils down to the rules JUST doing what they say and nothing more.
"This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon.": tells you what it does.
"Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen": You can only enchant items that are "piercing or slashing"
Where again is DAMAGE type talked about? I don't see "only works while dealing piercing or slashing damage." And even if Transformative WAS a universal law, it adds nothing to the argument. It just states that the weapon must still qualify for the enchantment, NOT what damage you have to deal with it.
The disagreement on this is why a definitive answer would be useful.*nod*
The keen ability is only dependent on the weapon itself, not how you use it, not if you're changing its damage type.
If it is piercing or slashing, you can keen it, and it will work. Period.
I can't see any reason there is a disagreement. It's blatantly obvious if you read the ability.
"This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen."
If the weapon is piercing or slashing, then it can be made Keen, and its threat range doubles. No ambiguity, no confusion, no question. Just people reading more into it than is there.
You certainly should be able to take keen on cesti as they do deal piercing damage. But the bonus shouldn't apply when they are being used for bludgeoning damage because then it doesn't matter how sharp they are.daimaru, I don't see the confusion. You have two options. Either you think that they weapon requires it you ONLY have 'piercing or slashing' As it's ONLY option or all you need if a P or a S in the type column.
IMO #1 seems silly. Why would a shortsword (P) be ineligible while a Gladius (P or S) would.
#2 seems the only option that makes sense. All you need is a P or S on the table and it works.
But it says 'piercing or slashing' can be enchanted. How can a cesti have it at all when it requires an entry of 'piercing or slashing'?
Or maybe what makes more sense it that it just requires one of those types as the base weapon. Note no where does it say "This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon only when dealing slashing or piercing damage" ;)
Which is exactly why I would like a definitive answer. You and Zhayne see an obvious answer where I see the opposite answer as obvious.
So it's clearly not obvious.
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not obvious.
It's just that I don't read what's written the way you read what's written and I don't think we can agree.daimaru, there is no rule that the damage type dealt changes the weapon type. There just isn't. You are saying it is because that's how you think it should be. That's cool and all by let me break it down to you.
The rule books list weapons with their type. Now to alter that's written, you'd need another rule to do it. Since there isn't, it doesn't. To do otherwise is making stuff up.
If what you're saying is that I'm not reading anything into the enchantment and you are then I agree. That's the only way we can be reading it any different. It's crystal clear.
All you have to do is point out where in the enchantment it says ANYTHING about damage types and I'll agree with you. i don't think it's too much to ask since that's the crux of your argument.
"This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen." Point out where it limits the damage type...
Weapon types list what damage types they are able to cause normally. This doesn't limit them to dealing those types of damage. Even if i deal B damage with dagger it didn't stop from being able to normally allow me to deal piercing. Just because I use a longsword in two hands doesn't change the longsword into a two-handed weapon. It stays a one handed weapon. A dagger dealing B damage is still pointy.
Bigdaddyjug: Takes longer to get a base attack bonus +8 than it does to make to keen cesti. Better to buy one and flurry with it. :)
Proof?
It says "example."
But I admit: I haven't found an official Paizo ruling for Pathfinder RPG on the exact meaning in RAW game terms of the english word "example."
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Type: Weapons are classified according to the type of
damage they deal: B for bludgeoning, P for piercing, or S
for slashing. Some monsters may be resistant or immune
to attacks from certain types of weapons.
Some weapons deal damage of multiple types. If a
weapon causes two types of damage, the type it deals is
not half one type and half another; all damage caused is of
both types. Therefore, a creature would have to be immune
to both types of damage to ignore any of the damage caused
by such a weapon.
In other cases, a weapon can deal either of two types
of damage. In a situation where the damage type is
significant, the wielder can choose which type of damage
to deal with such a weapon."
So if you have a weapon that is B/P and you attack with it each point of damage is from blunt and over comes blunt DR and from pierce and over comes pierce DR and if it has keen will be increased crit rate. not one or the other both at the same time.
I read your B/P as "B and P", otherwise I think it's double weapon notation.
Then the example from Transformative would make it clear that if it deals bludgeoning damage, then keen cannot affect it. I think that is how RAW should be read. But I wouldn't rule like that.
daimaru, there is no rule that the damage type dealt changes the weapon type. There just isn't. You are saying it is because that's how you think it should be. That's cool and all by let me break it down to you.
The rule books list weapons with their type. Now to alter that's written, you'd need another rule to do it. Since there isn't, it doesn't. To do otherwise is making stuff up.
I have proof, what's written in the book. I've asked YOU for proof for your point of view. So I've proven my side and you haven't with yours. That doesn't seem like what you're saying.
this boils down to the rules JUST doing what they say and nothing more.
"This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon.": tells you what it does.
"Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen": You can only enchant items that are "piercing or slashing"
Where again is DAMAGE type talked about? I don't see "only works while dealing piercing or slashing damage." And even if Transformative WAS a universal law, it adds nothing to the argument. It just states that the weapon must still qualify for the enchantment, NOT what damage you have to deal with it.
Tbh the feats and abilities to change weqpon damage came AFTER keen and certain weapon enchantments were printed. When keen was printed, there wasnt a way to make dagger do blunt damage etc so it was very straight forward which enchantments could go on which weapons. Then they printed out feats and whatnot and im guessing because a mass majority of weapon enchantments didnt have a dmg type req, nothing was said.
also theres the case of weapon dmg being listed. There are weapons that state "OR" (dagger do P or S) and then weapons that say "AND" (morningstar do B and P). Is the weapon based on the damage u are doing right then OR what they are capable of doing? Lets say because they actually do differeniate because they made the conscious decision to put "and" and "or", that morningstar does b and p whenever u do damage and a dagger only does s OR p (not both at same time). Does that mean based on the damage u are dealing is the trigger for weapon enchantments that have certain dmg prereqs?Is there a rule or ruling that flat out states that weapon enchants with dmg type prereq only work when doing that damage?
Is there a rule or ruling that flat out states that weqpon enchants with dmg type prereqs work no matter what damage type u are doing?
I havent seen a ruling yet that goes either way. So if we dont have a rule or ruling that flat out states either way, we can argue back and forth but without an official ruling both sides are right in their opionion on how it "works".
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Can keen enchant trigger and proc when doing B type damage because the weapon does B along with S/P or through class abilities or feats?
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Can keen enchant trigger and proc when doing B type damage because the weapon does B along with S/P or through class abilities or feats?
The weapon does all types of damage it can do for every point of damage it does. so if a weapon is B, S & P it will overcome all 3 and do any special effects (like keen) it does as it does them all at once, if it were not doing S & P damage then it could be ruled that if you want to use Keen you cannot use B but where weapons are ruled to do them all at once it is.
Said another way if an ability applys to ANY damage type your doing then it applies to all damage your doing.
Can keen enchant trigger and proc when doing B type damage because the weapon does B along with S/P or through class abilities or feats?
Keen ONLY affects the weapon. If it's a slashing and/or piercing weapon, then keen functions no matter what type of damage you're dealing with it, or how you arrived at dealing that kind of damage.
I read your B/P as "B and P", otherwise I think it's double weapon notation.
Then the example from Transformative would make it clear that if it deals bludgeoning damage, then keen cannot affect it. I think that is how RAW should be read. But I wouldn't rule like that.
The text for Transformative only effects items with Transformative. it's NOT a universal rule. Does weapon finesse prove everyone can use dex to hit with light melee weapons?
Tbh the feats and abilities to change weqpon damage came AFTER keen and certain weapon enchantments were printed. When keen was printed, there wasnt a way to make dagger do blunt damage etc so it was very straight forward which enchantments could go on which weapons. Then they printed out feats and whatnot and i'm guessing because a mass majority of weapon enchantments didnt have a dmg type req, nothing was said.daimaru, there is no rule that the damage type dealt changes the weapon type. There just isn't. You are saying it is because that's how you think it should be. That's cool and all by let me break it down to you.
The rule books list weapons with their type. Now to alter that's written, you'd need another rule to do it. Since there isn't, it doesn't. To do otherwise is making stuff up.
I have proof, what's written in the book. I've asked YOU for proof for your point of view. So I've proven my side and you haven't with yours. That doesn't seem like what you're saying.
this boils down to the rules JUST doing what they say and nothing more.
"This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon.": tells you what it does.
"Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen": You can only enchant items that are "piercing or slashing"
Where again is DAMAGE type talked about? I don't see "only works while dealing piercing or slashing damage." And even if Transformative WAS a universal law, it adds nothing to the argument. It just states that the weapon must still qualify for the enchantment, NOT what damage you have to deal with it.
Yes, but there WAS gnome hooked hammer that could do P OR P. It was possible back them to deal B damage with a keen weapon. SO it wasn't that it wasn't predicted as something that COULD happen, it already could.
also theres the case of weapon dmg being listed. There are weapons that state "OR" (dagger do P or S) and then weapons that say "AND" (morningstar do B and P). Is the weapon based on the damage u are doing right then OR what they are capable of doing? Lets say because they actually do differeniate because they made the conscious decision to put "and" and "or", that morningstar does b and p whenever u do damage and a dagger only does s OR p (not both at same time). Does that mean based on the damage u are dealing is the trigger for weapon enchantments that have certain dmg prereqs?
Is there a rule or ruling that flat out states that weapon enchants with dmg type prereq only work when doing that damage?
Is there a rule or ruling that flat out states that weqpon enchants with dmg type prereqs work no matter what damage type u are doing?
You make an error in your argument. You aren't attacking while enchanting so the type listed as a requirement in the enchantment must be the WEAPON TYPE. Weapon type doesn't change. A dagger never stops being pointy unless you destroy it.
So it reall does boil down to asking 'where is the rule that damage changes type?' The other questions make no sense.
"Is there a rule or ruling that flat out states that weapon enchants with dmg type prereq only work when doing that damage? ": There IS no damage type prereq, only weapon type.
"Is there a rule or ruling that flat out states that weqpon enchants with dmg type prereqs work no matter what damage type u are doing?": There IS no damage type prereq, only weapon type.
"Is the weapon based on the damage u are doing right then OR what they are capable of doing?" The weapon table say 'capable of'.
"Does that mean based on the damage u are dealing is the trigger for weapon enchantments that have certain dmg prereqs?": There IS no dmg prereqs. There is as weapon type prereqs and that doesn't change no matter what damage you deal.
"I havent seen a ruling yet that goes either way. So if we dont have a rule or ruling that flat out states either way, we can argue back and forth but without an official ruling both sides are right in their opionion on how it "works"." That's not how things work here. One way is spelled out in the rules. The other involves 'rules' that aren't in print. Actual rules text trumps non-existent 'rules'.
"Can keen enchant trigger and proc when doing B type damage because the weapon does B along with S/P or through class abilities or feats?" With the current rules if the weapon is the B weapon type along with the P and/or S it does. If it's not from a weapon type, then it doesn't.
I AM curious if abilities/feats that alter the damage you do are meant to qualify for abilities that have weapon type requirements. Right now they don't.
Note the slashing grace feat: "Choose one type of one-handed slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, proficient with
chosen weapon.
Benefit: When wielding your chosen weapon one
handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing weapon
for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon
(such as swashbuckler’s precise strike). The weapon must
be one for your size."
Note it doesn't just let you deal piercing damage, it goes out of it's way to "treat it as a one-handed piercing weapon". Seems like a lot of extra words if by default damage changes weapon type.
Stop overthinking this, people.
Is the weapon slashing and/or piercing? Then it can be made Keen.
If it is Keen, when you use the weapon, its crit range is doubled.
Full stop.
The text for Transformative only effects items with Transformative. it's NOT a universal rule. Does weapon finesse prove everyone can use dex to hit with light melee weapons?I read your B/P as "B and P", otherwise I think it's double weapon notation.
Then the example from Transformative would make it clear that if it deals bludgeoning damage, then keen cannot affect it. I think that is how RAW should be read. But I wouldn't rule like that.
If I made claims about weapon finesse, my mistake.
I didn't mean to say that it was a universal rule, I meant to say it was an example, and by that I meant that it is an example of how two special abilities interact according to the general rules, in which it states that a bludgeoning weapon cannot benefit from keen. At least as I read it.
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How I understand your interpretation (granted, not just yours):
A +1 keen cestus works with increased threat range.
A +1 transformative keen cestus does not.
Is that correctly understood? If so, I don't believe that is the case, but I don't think we will advance in this debate without more rules text to go by.
Can keen enchant trigger and proc when doing B type damage because the weapon does B along with S/P or through class abilities or feats?The weapon does all types of damage it can do for every point of damage it does. so if a weapon is B, S & P it will overcome all 3 and do any special effects (like keen) it does as it does them all at once, if it were not doing S & P damage then it could be ruled that if you want to use Keen you cannot use B but where weapons are ruled to do them all at once it is.
Said another way if an ability applys to ANY damage type your doing then it applies to all damage your doing.
Curious why then with the examples i gave did they write "and" and "or" then? Morningstar says its does P and B which we can agree means straight out when u attack it does P and B. The dagger on the other hand says P or S which to me says u either do P damage or u do Slashing damage. Otherwise , Why did they says certain weapons like the dagger when it says P or S and not just like they did with the morningstar say P and S.
why state "or" and give the written impression that it does either or, and not just type "and" which gives the impression that it does "weapon dmg type" and also "weapon damage type" at same time?Thats why i dont see how a dagger does Piercing damage and Slashing damage at same time since it said "OR".
But like i said that "OR" in the weapon type is what is adding the confusion, because that "OR" is giving the impression that the dagger isnt doing piercing and slashing at same time, so in the instance of keen, if theres an "OR" on the weapon like the example of P or B, when u are chosing between the "or" options and decide to do B dmg, woukd it go off.
Its that "OR" thats throwing me and problemly lots of people off because they made a conscious decision to add "OR" and also "AND" to the weapon type dmg which alot of people are getting different vibes of what it means. Strictest reading says u have to chose when it says "OR" and that u add at same time when it says "AND". Even the part of the book that says u do full damage on the different types of damage could be seen in the light to only apply to the ones that ha e "AND" because those are the ones added at same time and doing full type dmg with that example but not apply to the weapons that have "OR".
Tbh i think if they wanted all the weapon types to go off at same time, they shoulda just stuck with "AND" and not have written "OR" instead.
Also greystone, i was under the impression the for ex. S wasnt the "type" of weapon but the "type" of damage it did. Or maybe its both. Like the longsword, the "type" of weapon it is is a one handed weapon, but the "type" of damage it did was a 1d8 of slashing type damage. Sigh like i said its that "OR" that is really just making me hit a brick wall lol