Tetori Graceful Grappler Wording Clarification Needed.

[RaizielDragon]

The relevant portion of Graceful Grappler states "At 8th level, a tetori gains the grab special attack when using unarmed strikes, and can use this ability against creatures his own size or smaller by spending 1 point from his ki pool, or against larger creatures by spending 2 points from his ki pool."

Does this mean an 8th level Tetori needs to spend 1 ki in order to use Grab on a target smaller than themself?

[Claxon]

Yes, the ability requires the use of ki to activate. By spending 1 ki he gets the grab ability and it functions on creatures of his size or smaller. By spending 2 ki he can use it on creatures larger (and presumably smaller) than himself.

[RaizielDragon]

I wouldn't mind someone more authoritative weighing in on this. There really is some ambiguity to the wording, and I could interpret it both ways.

[MechE_]

RaizielDragon wrote:

I wouldn't mind someone more authoritative weighing in on this. There really is some ambiguity to the wording, and I could interpret it both ways.

I don't mean for this to come off as negative, but it's highly unlikely that you'll get someone more authoritative weighing in on this. Paizo runs a competitive business in a very competitive industry and in order to stay in business, they have to prioritize the time of their employees.

If the Paizo rules guys took 2 minutes to answer each question that came up on these forums, they would spend 8 hours per day doing exactly that, which would mean no new content, which would mean no new sales, which would mean no job for said Paizo rules guys. Unless something is designated as a frequently asked question (which is done by enough people marking it as such), then the best you will get is a few different people weighing in with their opinions. If those people seem to fall on both sides fairly evenly, then go ahead and make whichever interpretation you like. If those people seem to be mostly tilted in one direction, then it's probably best to go with that interpretation. There are a lot of people on these forums with a lot of knowledge - a good group consensus is worth more than a single person or two's opinions.

For what it's worth, I don't consider this question frequently asked, but I agree with Claxon - the ability requires the use of Ki.

[Morgen]

What in the world is ambiguous about the line, "can use this ability against creatures his own size or smaller by spending 1 point from his ki pool"?

[Skull]

The ability clearly says you can grab by spending ki... there is nothing vague about it...

[RaizielDragon]

I realize it seems pretty cut and dry, but the ambiguity comes in when you take into account the way Grab worked when this was printed.

When it was printed, Grab only worked on smaller targets; not equal-sized or larger.

So, I could interpret each part of the ability as such:

"At 8th level, a tetori gains the grab special attack when using unarmed strikes,..." <--(I know perfect grammar isn't always used in the wording of these things, but note the comma, separating this part of the sentence from tthe following part)

This portion of the ability gives you the Grab ability, which, at the time of printing, allowed you to make a free Grapple check on a successful attack with the relevant attack against a target smaller than you. So, now I have the Grab ability. Plain old grab. Allows me to make a Grapple check against smaller targets that I hit with an Unarmed Strike. Ki not involved. I can use this ability against smaller targets, but not even-sized or larger targets (as per the wording of the ability at time of printing).

"...and can use this ability against creatures his own size or smaller by spending 1 point from his ki pool,..." (comma again)

But wait, now I can spend a ki point to Grab an equal-sized target. Cool, so now I can either grab a smaller-sized target for free, per the normal Grab ability that the first part granted me, or I can spend a ki point in order to use Grab on an equal-sized target (or smaller if I wanted to throw away a ki point for some reason).

"...or against larger creatures by spending 2 points from his ki pool."
Even cooler, now I can use Grab against any target. I can do it against smaller targets for free, equal-sized targets for 1 ki, and larger targets for 2 ki.

However, once the plain old Grab ability got updated, and now works on equal-sized targets as well, you could potentially interpret the sentence the other way, where-in you have the Grab ability only when you spend a ki point or two.

[Claxon]

Specific overrides general. The tetori monk ability is the specific. You don't have access to grab at all unless you spend ki.

1 point is your size or smaller.
2 points lets you do bigger than yourself (and presumably smaller too).

[Mojorat]

Rules restrictions of when the default grab works has no bearing on graceful grappler. The ability tells you what creatures it can be used on and the cost.

[RaizielDragon]

But it's the same game rule giving you an ability and (potentially) limiting it in the same breath. So, the SPECIFIC class feature, Graceful Grappler, says you gain the Grab special ability. And the same SPECIFIC class feature, Graceful Grappler, states when you do and don't have to use ki.

I could see if maybe there was some other ability called "WRESTLER" that gave the creature "Grab", and if Graceful Grappler said "The Tetori gains "WRESTLER", but only gains "Grab" when...", in which case the specific limitation of "but only gains "Grab" when..." would override the general rule of "Creatures with "WRESTLER" gain "Grab". This isn't that case though.

[RaizielDragon]

Let's look at it this way: If Graceful Grappler were worded as such:

"At 8th level, a tetori gains the grab special attack when using unarmed strikes, and can use this ability against creatures his own size by spending 1 point from his ki pool, or against larger creatures by spending 2 points from his ki pool." (note the "or smaller" part is missing)

Would you say that he therefore cannot use Grab on smaller targets, because it only says he can spend the ki for equal-sized or larger? No, you would assume that he gains Grab, allowing him to Grab smaller targets, and can also Grab equal-sized targets for 1 ki, and larget targets for 2 ki.

To me, the "or smaller" part is just including a subset of the set "equal-sized or smaller". So the base Grab ability let's you Grab creatures in the "smaller-sized" set, spending 1 ki point adds in creatures in the "equal-sized" set, and spending 2 adds in creatures of the "larger-sized" set. It's just reminder text, letting you know that normally Grab doesn't allow you to grab equal-sized targets, but by spending 1 ki point you can Grab equal-sized AND smaller-sized targets. And oh, by the way, if you spend 2 you can also grab larger targets.

[Claxon]

No, it's not meant to be parsed that way.

It's [own size or smaller] as a set, for 1 ki point.

[Horkos]

Animate Thread!

On another note for the tetori's graceful grapple. I have a character concept for a tetori/white-haired witch.

where I have 4 level of Tetori and more levels of witch.

graceful grapple says a tetori uses his monk level in place of his BAB for grapples. but in my case his BAB would eventually end up higher than his monk levels.

would it default to the highest number?

[Klorox]

It says "a tetori uses his monk level in place of his BAB for grapples"
That presumably applies whatever the source of said BAB . A lvl 4 tetori/5fighter would grapple with a bonus of +9, but a level 4 tetori/6wizard would have only +7, not +10.

[Chess Pwn]

you use your monk level for you monk bab. Other classes giving you BAB work normally off of this.

[Horkos]

Klorox wrote:

It says "a tetori uses his monk level in place of his BAB for grapples"

That presumably applies whatever the source of said BAB . A lvl 4 tetori/5fighter would grapple with a bonus of +9, but a level 4 tetori/6wizard would have only +7, not +10.

Thanks for your help!

I was being dumb, it works like flurry of blows. got it!