What do you think of the duelist PrC?

[Kneller]

I was thinking of building a dex-based fighter (12/20/12/13/10/7) for a 20-point buy game with the plan to take on the Duelist PrC once I get to level 6. Aside from the required feats I'd take Combat Reflexes (so I don't have to wait until level 10), weapon finesse, improved trip, and disarm before getting starting the duelist levels, and then eventually take improved crit for a 15-20 crit range on a rapier, and possibly also go down the TWF road. I figure this character wouldn't be terribly good on its own (doesn't put out enough damage and can't tank), but I figured it would make a half-way decent field controller and really open up opportunities for a barb or whatnot. On top of that, I like its style. Any thoughts? Thanks.

[Matthias]

Dual wield ranger can get a lot of the flavor of a duelist if played right, and if you go with an animal companion you get a perfect flanking partner. Additionally if your barb is a heavy hitter I highly recommend butterfly sting crit fisher/finisher combo. It is very satisfying to be able to deal damage and set the monsters up for some big hurt from your friend.

[Psi51]

I would say steer clear of TWF as it can't be used with precise strike although the other abilities seem to work as written. Trip and disarm also start to become harder to pull off at higher levels unless it is an urban adventure the monsters start to have more legs and use less weapons at higher levels. The swashbuckler is out in about a month so if you can hold off.... + piranha strike.

[Torbyne]

Seconding the swashbuckler from the ACG. You can use that to go Duelist if you want but would probably do better to stay swashbuckler the whole way as that pretty much is the 20 level duelist.

[Kneller]

Quote:

Dual wield ranger can get a lot of the flavor of a duelist if played right

I thought about going ranger, but I figured the fighter would be more efficient with all the extra feats.

Besides, a ranger is a pretty stat hungry. I would also need a bit of wisdom to capitalize on spellcasting on top of the 13 Int for combat expertise and the high dex, with a little left over for strength and con.

Quote:

I would say steer clear of TWF as it can't be used with precise strike although the other abilities seem to work as written

You can still use precise strike with TFW as long as you're not making the extra attack from TWF that round.

Quote:

Seconding the swashbuckler from the ACG.

I don't have ACG, whatever that is, and we're only playing the basic core rulebook.

I didn't think about the whole more legs and fewer weapons thing. I could see how this character wouldn't work down the line. I'm just trying to create a fighter-type with some style. Just smashing things can be boring. Any suggestions?

[Mage Evolving]

ACG = Advanced Class Guide... No one has it yet. It's not going to be released for another month or so. From what I hear some of the classes are pretty cool.

[Torbyne]

Meh, two weeks is what I understand and you can download the playtest document which has a very playable version of the Swashbuckler in it for free from Paizo. If you want a duelist type character the swashbuckler is how to do it from level one. But if you can only use the core book than I am not sure you can build your concept very well, any melee class you go with will still need strength more than anything else. You could still RP it just fine though.

[Arksangiel]

Kneller wrote:

I was thinking of building a dex-based fighter (12/20/12/13/10/7) for a 20-point buy game with the plan to take on the Duelist PrC once I get to level 6. Aside from the required feats I'd take Combat Reflexes (so I don't have to wait until level 10), weapon finesse, improved trip, and disarm before getting starting the duelist levels, and then eventually take improved crit for a 15-20 crit range on a rapier, and possibly also go down the TWF road. I figure this character ... would make a half-way decent field controller.

You can, interestingly enough, go into duelist a level later and get a wide variety of additional abilities by going...monk?! Yes, monk.

Sticking exlusively to the core rules:

Elven Monk 8, use a rapier for attacks early (later you'll use it exclusively to parry) into duelist.

Build:

Elf (you'll have enough bonus feats from monk)

Str 12
Dex 18 (inc +2 race)
Con 10 (inc -2 race)
Int 16 (inc +2 race)
Wis 14
Cha 07

1: Dodge, Monk Bonus: Improved Trip*
2: Monk Bonus: Combat Reflexes*
3: Weapon Finesse
4: +1 Dex
5: Toughness
6: Monk Bonus: Mobility
7: Combat Expertise
8: +1 Dex
9 - Duelist 1: Whirlwind Attack
Duelist 2:
Duelist 3: Greater Trip*

*Patience on Combat reflexes will get you greater trip earlier and free up a feat slot.

Skills: Acrobatics (plus monk bonuses!, Stealth, Perception, and you've still got four left...pick six and half-level them.

This is a little weird in that whenever you full attack, you're "using a one-handed piercing weapon" but will instead flurry of blows and use a ki point to gain 2 extra attacks at your full BAB, reserving one to parry with the rapier.

If your DM objects to you not attacking with an invalid weapon during a flurry of blows, just switch to a siangham which is clearly a monk weapon.

Consider this like a dueling instructor--turn aside their attack with your blade and counter by slapping them upside the head with your empty hand (monk unarmed damage).

AC will go up with dex, int, or wis, you've got improved movement to use your duelist charge and are quite capable at whirlwind tripping. Even with the cha penalty you could UMD a wand of Mage armor for some real tanking action.

Also, whenever you full attack, you get full BAB from flurry of blows plus bonus hits.

Unusual? Yes. Fun, probably. It does have two weak points: Low hp early, and a bit of an AC lull between 6 and 9 (after which you'll go up +1 per level until 13.

Edit: Corrected an error--dagger is not a piercing "monk" weapon. Replaced it.

[Kneller]

I'm not sure if my group will allow the swashbuckler. They seem to be (sorta) playing with the pathfinder society rules (why? I have no idea).

I've been reading up on melee, and I'm not seeing a lot that seem to be terribly effective outside of a "Hulk, Smash!" strategy.

Maybe I should give a druid a whirl...

[Imbicatus]

The playtest swashbuckler is currently allowed in PFS, and the 10 new base classes will all be PFS legal when the book is out.

[insaneogeddon]

I had a duelist he used crane wing, free hand fighter and a pick (he also used as a jaunty walking cane) and was out damaging the barbarian and had insane AC. Would prob. swap crane wing for turtle style now.

He was monk 2, fighter 4

2 levels of maneuver master monk are golden if you want to use combat maneuvers while still dealing major damage.

http://www.borispalatnik.com/WalkingStickSwordCanes_PAN.jpg
http://www.borispalatnik.com/WalkingStickSwordCanes_COUGAR.jpg
http://www.antiquewalkingcane.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/dragon_5.png
http://www.gentlemansemporium.com/store/media/003571/003571_01.jpg

DM even ruled pick gets +2 to trip attempts in a remarkable show of logic after some free food ;) it was very unique, he created a new school of dueling and a trend among young nobles - when dueling with a pick everyone's afraid of you as its just a matter of luck!

[Alexander Augunas]

Duelist gets an interesting boost from the Advanced Class Guide's swashbuckler class. The two class's precise strike damage stack, although taking the PrC does reduce the amount of extra damage that you receive from spending grit to double your swashbuckler bonus damage. On the other hand, you gain the duelist's ability independently of panache.

Furthermore, the swashbuckler has an easier time meeting the duelist's prerequisites since it gets Weapon Finesse for free. As a human, you could meet the duelist's feat prerequisites as a 1st-level human if you wanted to. Furthermore, you add your Intelligence modifier to your AC passively and you can spend panache to add your Charisma modifier to your AC against an attack.

Duelist is still a great Prestige Class. Between Slashing Grace and the supposed Dex-to-damage feat that they say is coming in this book, the Duelist is standing to get a LOT better, too.

[Zilfrel Findadur]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Duelist gets an interesting boost from the Advanced Class Guide's swashbuckler class. The two class's precise strike damage stack, although taking the PrC does reduce the amount of extra damage that you receive from spending grit to double your swashbuckler bonus damage. On the other hand, you gain the duelist's ability independently of panache.

Furthermore, the swashbuckler has an easier time meeting the duelist's prerequisites since it gets Weapon Finesse for free. As a human, you could meet the duelist's feat prerequisites as a 1st-level human if you wanted to. Furthermore, you add your Intelligence modifier to your AC passively and you can spend panache to add your Charisma modifier to your AC against an attack.

Duelist is still a great Prestige Class. Between Slashing Grace and the supposed Dex-to-damage feat that they say is coming in this book, the Duelist is standing to get a LOT better, too.

there is already a feat for dex to damage, is named Dervish dance.

[zapbib]

Dervish dance wont work on a duelist because a duelist requires a piercing weapon. The only way you can get dex damage on a piercing weapon is the agile enchantment or to be a lvl 1 swordlord.

Speaking of which, would the dervish dance feat be realy broken if it said any 1 chosen 1-handed slashing melee weapon instead of scimitar. I can't realy figure what is so special with the scimitar that other similar weapon coudn't do. I mean, could something very broken happen that I cannot see?

(I think I saw a feat in the ACB that allowed to use 1 handed slashing as piercing, but i'm not sure)

[Imbicatus]

Dervish Dance specifically allows you to use a Scimitar as a one handed piercing weapon for any feat or class ability that requires one.

Dervish Dance on a duelist is fine.

[zapbib]

Oh wow, I really messed up. I should really always go and read again feat I'm referencing.

I still don't understand why the scimitar is the only weapon that can do that. I mean, the dueling sword can too, but requires so many other feats and no-one have dueling sword proficiency at start.

[Alexander Augunas]

Zilfrel Findadur wrote:

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Duelist gets an interesting boost from the Advanced Class Guide's swashbuckler class. The two class's precise strike damage stack, although taking the PrC does reduce the amount of extra damage that you receive from spending grit to double your swashbuckler bonus damage. On the other hand, you gain the duelist's ability independently of panache.

Furthermore, the swashbuckler has an easier time meeting the duelist's prerequisites since it gets Weapon Finesse for free. As a human, you could meet the duelist's feat prerequisites as a 1st-level human if you wanted to. Furthermore, you add your Intelligence modifier to your AC passively and you can spend panache to add your Charisma modifier to your AC against an attack.

Duelist is still a great Prestige Class. Between Slashing Grace and the supposed Dex-to-damage feat that they say is coming in this book, the Duelist is standing to get a LOT better, too.

there is already a feat for dex to damage, is named Dervish dance.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of Dervish Dance.

Its not a bad idea, but restricting Dex to Damage to a specific weapon that normally couldn't be finessed in the first place makes no sense to me. I'm looking forward to the new Dex to Damage option in the ACG.

[Imbicatus]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Honestly, I'm not a fan of Dervish Dance.

Its not a bad idea, but restricting Dex to Damage to a specific weapon that normally couldn't be finessed in the first place makes no sense to me. I'm looking forward to the new Dex to Damage option in the ACG.

Dervish dance was created specifically for Sarenrae cultists to be able to finesse scimitars like River Tam on crack. However it ended up being taken by everyone who is a dex fighter because Dex to damage is needed for finesse builds to be relevant and Agile is a money-sink that may not always be available.

I like dervish dance for Sarenrae worshipers. I don't like being stuck into a specific weapon or enchantment on any Dex based build. I too am really looking forward to an alternate dex to damage feat in the ACG.

[Zilfrel Findadur]

Yes, it would be nice. the new feat though.

[LoneKnave]

Duelist comes online way, waaaaay too late and the class abilities are kinda bad.

You are going to get the first level of it at lvl7 at the soonest. If you were in a full BAB class, chances are you have no points to put into INT (that you don't have any other specific use for anyway) to get much use out of canny defense. If you went "to hell with it, I'm going to dump my CHA to 3 and STR just high enough to carry my gear and pump it into INT!", and dealt with being gimped for those 6 levels, now you'll find you'll need another 3-4 levels to make full use of it. Guess you could just wear heavy armor and use shields until then... and then realize those give you more AC than Canny defense by far.

Precise Strike doesn't even make up for the difference in damage from one-handing your weapon, and it retains all the stupid limitations of sneak attack.

Improved reaction is OK, but minor.

Parry is limited as hell, although it wouldn't be that bad in theory. Too bad you can only do it after full attacking and still only do it once/turn. Preparing for a fighter rushing at you and elegantly parrying his clumsy attack? Nope, unless your DM is fine with full attacking the air instead.

Enhanced mobility is... mobility again.

Combat reflexes for free... at lvl 10. OH JOY! I SURE DIDN'T MISS THIS FOR THE PAST 9 LEVELS!

Too bad Parry is so terrible, Riposte would be kinda good.

Acrobatic Charge: lvl12, this is your PFS capstone. It's actually just about half of Dragon Style.

Elaborate defense: ahahahahaha

Deflect Arrows: welcome to lvl1 monk city. Enjoy your stay. Note: it's funny that you don't need a free hand for this, when for everything else you do.

No retreat: When was the last time someone took the withdraw action? At lvl 15?

Crippling Critical: You get what is basically a very strong critical feat. On the up-side, it stacks with other critical feats. On the down side, you are level freaking 16, and all you have to show for it is what is essentially maybe 2 bonus feats (Critical Mastery and a critical feat of your choice).