So in debating whether or not to try a theurge for the first time, I came across the seeming problem of having one of the caster types have a really low ability score and thus spell DC, which is a big deal with my casters. With the changes in the big clerical spells, destruction and implosions, this doesn't seem to be as big of a deal! While there are some really sweet new divine spells out there that do rely on saves to do anything (aura of doom anyone?) the change from 3.5 to Pathfinder seems to make this much more doable of a build for me. I would only throw one in a party with a paladin or a witch (and the later only if the campaign wasn't very melee intense, and not a sleepless locomotive ride), but it looks good! Not many theurge threads out there other than some really bizarre builds which I admire but have a hard time wrapping my brain around...any thoughts on the classic 3 wizard/3 cleric/10 theurge/rest wizard?
I hate to be blunt, but in terms of optimization it's Terrible (the capital T is required). The only "ok" Mystic Theurge is an early entry (please note "ok" does not mean "good"). And the only good theurge is an early entry, SAD casting stat combination, and using Eclectic/Esoteric Training. DC's aren't really the big issue. The big issue is that you are multiple spell levels behind, which when you are a caster is literally the worst thing possible
Yes.
Here, mostly.
Generally speaking, though, focus on spells that don't require saves, and that do interesting things. That will help immensely. More than anything else: enjoy!
Don't be discouraged. The theurge is truly a great class. It is true that it is not the most powerful caster. It does not even attempt to compete for the title, which will turn many away from the route in dismay. What it is, however, is the single most versatile caster. Most of the games I have played reward diversity and preparedness over extreme power or min/maxing, and few casters can even compete with the theurge on that front.
A few simple tips to get you moving:
Use early entry if possible. Now that this is allowed, the original wizard 3/cleric 3 combo is obsolete. You can now qualify with cleric 1/wizard 1/ XX 1 with a proper build. There are some short guides on that here
Avoid spells that attempt to maximize damage or require saves to be useful. Your save DCs will rarely, if ever compete with those of your single route friends.
When in doubt, support. Having access to two spell lists allows you to pick up a massive collection of buffs, utility spells, and restoration options.
Don't be afraid of multi-class shenanigans. You can use blood money to cast restoration for free, or use false focus to make free holy water. Opportunities for creative spell usage abound.
Enjoy yourself. Don't let anyone tell you how to have fun. Even me. Especially me. Do what you'll enjoy and what will bring enjoyment to your table.
Don't be discouraged. The theurge is truly a great class. It is true that it is not the most powerful caster. It does not even attempt to compete for the title, which will turn many away from the route in dismay. What it is, however, is the single most versatile caster. Most of the games I have played reward diversity and preparedness over extreme power or min/maxing, and few casters can even compete with the theurge on that front.
No one is talking about fun. We're talking about how good the build is. And the build is bad. Anyone can have fun with any class. I can and have had fun playing an Expert. If you want a class that is better suited to contribute though, maybe you should look at how good the class actually is, which is what this thread is about.
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Don't be discouraged. The theurge is truly a great class. It is true that it is not the most powerful caster. It does not even attempt to compete for the title, which will turn many away from the route in dismay. What it is, however, is the single most versatile caster. Most of the games I have played reward diversity and preparedness over extreme power or min/maxing, and few casters can even compete with the theurge on that front.No one is talking about fun. We're talking about how good the build is. And the build is bad. Anyone can have fun with any class. I can and have had fun playing an Expert. If you want a class that is better suited to contribute though, maybe you should look at how good the class actually is, which is what this thread is about.
It is good for exactly what it is, utility. The box it came in never promised phenomenal cosmic powers. All it promised was access to both arcane and divine spell lists. If you wanted to play an arcane/divine caster mix this is clearly the most optimal class for it, regardless of how sub-optimal the base concept may be. Speaking for myself, I usually pick a specific thing I want to do (cast both arcane and divine spells, use throwing weapons, hit with a big sword, etc.), then focus on building a competent character that achieves that goal. There's room in the game for more than rage-cycle pouncing barbarians, got-this-myself clerics, and god wizards.
Additionally, this thread is about how to make a viable "classic" 3 wizard/3 cleric/10 MT/rest wizard character, not if it should be attempted or not.
Not many theurge threads out there other than some really bizarre builds which I admire but have a hard time wrapping my brain around...any thoughts on the classic 3 wizard/3 cleric/10 theurge/rest wizard?
If he wanted standard advice, he could easily find it elsewhere. He has clearly seen the early entry builds and is looking for an alternative.
Don't be discouraged. The theurge is truly a great class. It is true that it is not the most powerful caster. It does not even attempt to compete for the title, which will turn many away from the route in dismay. What it is, however, is the single most versatile caster. Most of the games I have played reward diversity and preparedness over extreme power or min/maxing, and few casters can even compete with the theurge on that front.No one is talking about fun. We're talking about how good the build is. And the build is bad. Anyone can have fun with any class. I can and have had fun playing an Expert. If you want a class that is better suited to contribute though, maybe you should look at how good the class actually is, which is what this thread is about.
If anything I said bothered you, be sure I meant no offense.
You say look at the build, and I am. All I see are options. Many, varied, tactically interesting options. I'll certainly agree with you that everything a theurge can do, another class could do better. The problem with that approach is that no other class can do everything a theurge can do, and still even approach competence. The closest I've seen to a toolbox this size are the Ancient Lorekeeper Oracles and pre-nerf Paragon Surge shenanigans.
Are the DC's as high? No, but there are various and sundry uses for magic that do not require high DCs, especially if you intend to play a support caster.
Is the caster level as high? No, but that can be partially mitigated by magical knack, and further mitigated with items, varisian tattoos, and other such tricks.
Is the spell progression as fast? No, and this truly seems to be the sticking point for most people. However, a theurge using early entry on even one of their classes, will find themselves only one level behind in their primary class, while picking up an entirely separate spell list to cast from. I'll admit that the secondary class falls behind a little further there, but giving yourself that many more tricks to overcome complex or difficult encounters must surely be worth something.
Is it not worth it to advance a wizard at a sorcerer's level of progression if it means he can raise the dead and remove diseases?
I see no reason in arguing the point about whether or not a theurge is optimal, especially when we're looking at a single role in the party. It is not, and likely never will be. However, I will maintain that it is contributory.
Put bluntly, the better alternative is Razmiran Priest Sorcerers, or Ancient Lorekeeper Oracles, in that order. A Razmiran Priest Sorcerer is an extremely versatile character even before we get into the absolute insanity that is Razmiran Channel at 9th level. Don't forget a Holy Symbol, Tattoo. And counting as a Half-Elf for Paragon Surge as even with the nerf it's still solid. Alternatively, a Hedge Witch, or even a regular one. Really there's just a lot of options that are much better then a non-early entry Mystic Theurge.
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I hate to be blunt, but in terms of optimization it's Terrible (the capital T is required). The only "ok" Mystic Theurge is an early entry (please note "ok" does not mean "good"). And the only good theurge is an early entry, SAD casting stat combination, and using Eclectic/Esoteric Training. DC's aren't really the big issue. The big issue is that you are multiple spell levels behind, which when you are a caster is literally the worst thing possible
I will say I agree that without early entry, MT is not optimal, but with early entry, I think you are underestimating it, I would say it goes up to better than sorcerer, and situationally more powerful than a straight wizard, I'll first give the details of my theurge, than give some of my PFS experience to augment my opinion.
I have a Tiefling Theurge (Divination(Foresight)Wizard2/Cleric1/Theurge3) Magical Knack boosts my CL for wizard up to max HD, started 18 INT/14 WIS. If we compare what I got/gave up for taking that Cleric level:
Gained: 2 HP, +2 Fort/Will, some channel energy, access to cleric spell list for wands/scrolls, and casting 2 levels behind. Ability to spontaneously heal.
Travel Domain: +10 movement speed (very handy) and the ability to ignore ALL difficult terrain for 1 round, 5 times a day (I have never ran out of this, and every time I used it, it either saved my life, or allowed me to end the fight much quicker)
Trickery Domain: Bluff, Disguise, and Stealth became class skills (stealth was a big bonus before invisibility, and keeps being useful still. Copycat gives you a 50% miss chance on any 1 attack and takes a move action to activate, has saved my bacon numerous times, either by taking the hit, or by dissuading monsters to even attempt to hit.
With those 2 domains, my domain slots look like this
1st Longstrider, 2nd Invisibility, 3rd Fly, 4th Confusion or Dimension Door, 5th Teleport.
What did I give up by not going straight wizard? 1-2 bonus feats, my 8th level wizard power (admittedly this is a pretty powerful ability, but turning on at 8th level means I miss it most of a pfs career, and when it does turn on a 30ft area is pretty small.) Familiar abilities, and 1 level behind getting new spells (same as a sorcerer)
When playing my theurge, on even levels, I feel I am equal to, if not better than a wizard of my level. I have the same levels of spells available, but I just have so many more options. I have focused on Summoning, so Feats (Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning) Usually I prepare summons/buffs on my cleric side, and damage/control spells on the wizard side.
On the odd levels, I am 1 behind where a wizard would be, but this is offset because on those levels, I get a new level of cleric spells available, which are fun to play with and give more options.
I will also say, in many of the scenarios I have run with other casters (wizards and sorcerers) They tended to either run out of useful spells before the last fight, or were less effective on the earlier fights because they were conserving spells. I on the other hand could cast spells pretty much all rounds of combat, without running out.
anyways, these are just some of my thoughts and opinions on the early entry Theurge.
As for the 3/3/10 Theurge, you mentioned this would be later in the campaign, so if you didn't have to slog through the early levels, I would say you will get a lot of fun out of it. Pick your domains and wizard school carefully and they can be useful throughout the campaign. Try to avoid spells that allow a saving throw. (summons, buffs, illusions). Try to either get both casting on 1 stat, or focus on 1 stat so you get a decent save dc when you have to.
The trouble with this place is that they let the optimisers and the non-optimisers mix.
MacFetus, no-one here is arguing for not optimizing. They are using it in a different sense though. Some use optimizing as "make the most powerful concept as a build", while others use it as "make the most powerful build for a certain concept".
Every single post here is about optimization. Except possibly our two latest.
The trouble with this place is that they let the optimisers and the non-optimisers mix.
If you don't roll randomly for all build decisions you are an optimizer.
... Not many theurge threads out there other than some really bizarre builds which I admire but have a hard time wrapping my brain around...any thoughts on the classic 3 wizard/3 cleric/10 theurge/rest wizard?
Actually there are lots of Mystic Theurge build threads. But apparently, they are not giving what you are looking for.
MT can be useful as a utility and support/buff caster. Which is what you described. You won't have as good of buffs for your allies, but you can find lots of minor ones to stack up. The utility spells can be great. If your GM, group, campaign allows you to find out a lot of info ahead of time so that having the perfect spell is really effective. With some GM's, groups, campaigns there is essentially no investigating, scouting, information gathering done or even possible. Well, then your are proceeding with just a standard default list of spells. You just lost access to the real strength of the MT. So think about your situation carefully before you jump into this one.
The early entry options are not really that hard to understand. Go to the early entry guide and it is explained fairly well. Or the discussion thread for that guide for more arguing details.
As far as the classic 3/3/10/4 build. It is really rough to slog through the levels when you start the second class and for the first couple of levels of MT. Most people were really only willing to consider it when a game was starting at about level 10 or so. I also wouldn't consider it unless the group had essentially zero casters other than myself. If the group already has even 1 other minor/gish caster, that negates most of the draw of the MT.
Also, UMD is much easier in PF than it was in 3.X so long ago, so many people prefer that for the other must have spells instead of MT.
Not saying it is impossible, but the situations where it is extremely useful are less common than in previous versions. Not pursuing the early entry options exacerbates that issue.
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The trouble with this place is that they let the optimisers and the non-optimisers mix.If you don't roll randomly for all build decisions you are an optimizer.
If you don't play a specific race with an SLA for early entry into a prestige class that wasn't legal until it was clarified not long ago you're a... uh... roleplayer! Or maybe a dooty face?
In any case (on topic) I tend to think the mystic theurge is pretty weak, because in my experience you lag behind not only in terms of spell access (e.g. higher level spells) but also in terms of total number of spells for meaningful spell levels you have available (that is, your top few levels of spells). Having boat loads of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spells at level 15 is poor consolation for the fact that you've got fewer 5th and 6th level spells than the guys also throwing around 7th and 8th level stuff.
That doesn't make it terrible/bad fun, but even from the perspective of someone who rarely aligns with Anzyr, I tend to suggest players steer clear. There are in many cases better options even from the fluff perspective for someone that wants to blend faith and arcane magic (witch can be reflavored, ancient lorekeeper oracle, false priest sorcerer, ect).
That said, I also recognize that the mystic theurge is a candle to most player's moth, and a great many players will be drawn to it until they are themselves burned, whatever I might say. If you've got the itch, go ahead and get it out of your system.
Actually, while I admire the cleverness that is the early entry trick, it is not an option BUT while debating feat timing and use I would be more into (depending on the make up of the party...if a paladin is along probably wouldn't do a 1/1 cleric/wizard then plow on up with wizard to 5th) taking 5 levels of wizard to get the bonus feat and some wands cranked out then get the three cleric and move forward..by the time you needed some wisdom boost you could be crafting up some items to help with it that way, along with getting the bonus feat earlier rather than later.