Okay, so in nearly every instance where it talks about drinking the blood of sentient creatures, it says this is an evil act. But the Dragonslayer's Handbook talks about how you can use Dragon Blood as healing, there is the Dragon Drinker sorcerer archetype, etc. So, does it say nothing about alignment? Can a Paladin drink dragon's blood cause the RAW doesn't say (that I can find at least) that drinking dragon blood is evil?
I will say I don't have the actual book yet, just read the crunch on Archives of Nethys and d20pfsrd (checked both, looking for anything about "drinking dragon blood is evil same as humanoids" and saw nothing.
drinking dragon blood has been around since First Edition.
Is this a RP question?
Would you not be more concnerned with killing the dragon?
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It depends.
Are you gaining a benefit from it?
If you're just drinking dragon blood (or any sentient creature you've just killed) for fun, you're fine alignment-wise.
If you're drinking it to (heavens forfend) gain some sort of numerical bonus or even (*gasp*) SUSTENANCE, then it's evil. Paladin falls, and all is right (riiight...) with the world.
We're not talking about eating animated objects made out of chocolate syrup, we're talking about the blood of the living. If you bite someone and swallow human blood, you're saying, "this creature is food to me, I will gain sustenance from drinking its blood." And if you're doing that to an intelligent creature, you're treating intelligent creatures as food. That's evil.
If Rolf has to kill someone in order to defend himself, we accept that.
If Rolf is attacked and has to resort to biting his attacker in order to escape or avoid being killed, we accept that.
If Rolf bites his attacker and decides to swallow the attacker's blood, that's just creepy and inappropriate.
If Rolf swallow's the attacker's blood and his eyes light up with joy and he gets stronger for doing so, that's evil.I doesn't matter if Rolf is a human, dhampir, half-orc, or gnome; gaining power from drinking a person's blood is creepy and evil.
It's an easy choice: If you're worried about drinking blood being an evil act, (a) play an evil character, or (b) don't take the Blood Drinker feat. Your character lives in a universe where there are absolutes for the alignments, and the physics of that universe says "Feeding on unwilling intelligent creatures is an evil act."
:rolls eyes so hard they face backwards:
Parts of dragons are a funny thing. A Hero would never cut the head off of a sentient humanoid villain and hang his head over the mead hall, but it has in most versions of Dnd PF etc been okay to do this to a Dragon, after skining it and wearing its skin as a cloak armor etc.
Its a wierd double standard best to ignore it and move on.
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Is it evil to kill a human and drink his blood? Then it is evil to kill a dragon and drink its blood.
Is it evil to skin a human and make armor/clothes from his skin? Then it is evil to do the same to a dragon.
Dragons are sentient beings too, just like elves, humans, dwarves, etc. Yet they are consistently an exception to what is acceptable for someone to do. Nobody blinks twice at someone walking around in dragonhide armor. But should that person be walking around in human-leather armor, everyone is suddenly offended.
Drinking blood doesn't matter. How and why you got it, that's the important part.
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Parts of dragons are a funny thing. A Hero would never cut the head off of a sentient humanoid villain and hang his head over the mead hall, but it has in most versions of Dnd PF etc been okay to do this to a Dragon, after skining it and wearing its skin as a cloak armor etc.
Its a wierd double standard best to ignore it and move on.
Welcome to the Pirates Skull Tavern.
Do you really need to ask how we got that name?
/gestures at the desiccated skull hanging from a gaff hook by the door.
Maybe dragon culture has a social more that says when you kill a worthy opponent it is moral and proper to take his hide, skull, etc. as trophies, and wearing dragonskin armor is just showing respect for their culture?
(Only half joking.)
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I would think that the act itself of drinking the blood should also consider what dragon is having its blood drunk.
If a warrior slew a dragon that had been terrorizing the local community, it would be considered a good act to slay and then drink that dragon's blood, perhaps to gain the powers of that dragon and continue the warrior's crusade for good.
If same warrior slew a dragon that had been providing protection and wealth to the local community, it would be considered an evil act to slay and then dring that dragon's blood, perhaps to show just how much value a sentient and good natured soul would be worth in his eyes.
In my opinion, if you slay an evil dragon and drink an evil dragon's blood, as long as the dragon was doing evil, it could be considered a good act for the most part, the reverse being true about a good dragon doing good things being slain.
That's my two copper pieces, anyway.
Dragons are a bit of a weird case, since on one hand they're people, and on the other hand the evil ones like to eat people. Or worse.
I've played characters who took the stance of "that was a person, we shouldn't eat that" approach and I've played characters who shrugged and dug into a dragon steak.
Depending on the game you are in I would preferably ask the GM. They might have different feelings on the matter and no matter whether or not there is a rule for it, it is important that you know ahead of time whether or not it will be a problem with them.
For PFS I think you would be fine to use it. Dragons are weird as far as body parts go. There are a few mummified magic items, but dragonscale armor and other parts don't carry the message of evil as much as weapon humanoid skin. Humans run the game so that probably plays into a factor why the world is fine with wearing dragon skin more than other intelligent hides.
...
:rolls eyes so hard they face backwards:
I'm not sure if it is reasonable to continue dragging that argument from over a year and a half ago into this thread.
I'm not sure if it is reasonable to continue dragging that argument from over a year and a half ago into this thread.
I think it is, considering it's the only dev input we have on the subject.
Like it or not (I don't), that's the closest to a rules answer we've got.
As this is the Rules Question forum, not the Advice or General Discussion forums, that's what you go by.
Okay, so in nearly every instance where it talks about drinking the blood of sentient creatures, it says this is an evil act. But the Dragonslayer's Handbook talks about how you can use Dragon Blood as healing, there is the Dragon Drinker sorcerer archetype, etc. So, does it say nothing about alignment? Can a Paladin drink dragon's blood cause the RAW doesn't say (that I can find at least) that drinking dragon blood is evil?
I will say I don't have the actual book yet, just read the crunch on Archives of Nethys and d20pfsrd (checked both, looking for anything about "drinking dragon blood is evil same as humanoids" and saw nothing.
To be honest, I find the whole "Drinking Blood is Evil" thing to make no sense, both RAW and RAI, especially when you're talking about a medicinal use for it, since you are saying the ingestion of Dragon Blood provides healing capabilities.
That being said, Dragonslayers using the scales, bones, innards, etc. of a Dragon as a means of life is no different than Native Americans nomading around and killing all the buffalo, using the furs, bones, meat, and other stuff for sustenance. They are naturally living off the land. The biggest difference is, for gameplay terminology, the Buffalo aren't intelligent, they're 2 Intelligence animals.
So if those same Native Americans went around and killed Awakened Buffalo (it's about the closest in-game comparison we'll get) for the same reasons Dragonslayers go out and kill Dragons, would they really be Evil? Well...that's for you to decide. I really doubt it.
@ Rynjin: The OP isn't talking about drinking Dragon Blood for a thrill or from a living dragon, which the whole "Drinking Blood" arguments originate toward; drinking the blood of a living, breathing sentient creature who feels pain and suffering from the act. So let's compare.
Is the Dragon alive? No. Is the Dragon sentient? It's dead. It's a corpse. So, it's not even a creature, it's an object, meaning moot question. Is the Dragon in pain and suffering? No. Again, it's a corpse, whatever pain and suffering it felt that led to its death is over and done with. Plus, since it's dead, it's an object, so we're back to the previous question. Is the Dragonslayer doing it for the thrill? Arguable, though given that the Dragon's Blood has medicinal qualities, plus he is using more than just the blood of the Dragon, and Dragons (or even those of Draconic ancestry) can be overzealous and territorial towards other creatures, it's extremely doubtful. So all of those qualities that people would take to mean Evil aren't even applicable in the first place, given game mechanics.
Quite frankly, it's survival of the fittest. Living things need to eat and use the resources of the land (and its inhabitants) in order to survive. If other animals were sentient like us, I'm sure mice would refer to owls as a bunch of jerks who just swoop down and take them from the ground all willy-nilly like a bunch of horrible kidnappers, dogs and cats would throw the Evil card at each other almost constantly, and who knows what else. Simply denying it because "Oh, you're doing it to something who can think and act on a level beyond that of basic creatures, you're evil!" is the same reasoning behind "You can't fire that guy, he's the best at his job, you're evil!"
I'm not sure if it is reasonable to continue dragging that argument from over a year and a half ago into this thread.
I think it is, considering it's the only dev input we have on the subject.
Like it or not (I don't), that's the closest to a rules answer we've got.
As this is the Rules Question forum, not the Advice or General Discussion forums, that's what you go by.
It is obvious you don't like it, but I also think that this is a different situation from the dev response. That was talking about a feat that allowed you to feed off a still living creature (possibly willing, likely not). Also, that feat also called out, "[Using this] Feeding on unwilling intelligent creatures is an evil act."
Neither of those seem to be the case here which is why I said what I did. Sean's posts were in a different discussion regarding a different ability that did say "usage of this feat under certain circumstances is an evil act." If using the dragon blood as mentioned in the thread would be an evil act by itself, the item would have likely noted that just like the Dhampir's Blood Drinker feat does.
I'm not sure if it is reasonable to continue dragging that argument from over a year and a half ago into this thread.
I think it is, considering it's the only dev input we have on the subject.
Like it or not (I don't), that's the closest to a rules answer we've got.
As this is the Rules Question forum, not the Advice or General Discussion forums, that's what you go by.
It is obvious you don't like it, but I also think that this is a different situation from the dev response. That was talking about a feat that allowed you to feed off a still living creature (possibly willing, likely not). Also, that feat also called out, "[Using this] Feeding on unwilling intelligent creatures is an evil act."
Neither of those seem to be the case here which is why I said what I did. Sean's posts were in a different discussion regarding a different ability that did say "usage of this feat under certain circumstances is an evil act." If using the dragon blood as mentioned in the thread would be an evil act by itself, the item would have likely noted that just like the Dhampir's Blood Drinker feat does.
You're still "treating an intelligent, sentient creature as food. That's evil.".
You'll note that this is a blanket statement not limited to the Feat itself.
Granted it's one guy's opinion, and thankfully it hasn't been FAQ'd or anything (yet...), but it IS still the closest thing you've got to an official answer on this question RULES-wise.
What everyone else is throwing out is pure speculation or "This is how I'd run that", which belongs in a different forum.
Now, to play Devil's Advocate with myself (or the opposite of that), cannibalism is not inherently evil in Golarion. Lizardfolk, for example, are True Neutral as a race, and practice cannibalism.
So there seems to be some leeway for "It's a cultural thing".
BUUUUUUUT, that's a special case where the race in question does it out of necessity. They NEED it, not just would benefit from it.
We're not talking about eating animated objects made out of chocolate syrup, we're talking about the blood of the living. If you bite someone and swallow human blood, you're saying, "this creature is food to me, I will gain sustenance from drinking its blood." And if you're doing that to an intelligent creature, you're treating intelligent creatures as food. That's evil.
If Rolf has to kill someone in order to defend himself, we accept that.
If Rolf is attacked and has to resort to biting his attacker in order to escape or avoid being killed, we accept that.
If Rolf bites his attacker and decides to swallow the attacker's blood, that's just creepy and inappropriate.
If Rolf swallow's the attacker's blood and his eyes light up with joy and he gets stronger for doing so, that's evil.I doesn't matter if Rolf is a human, dhampir, half-orc, or gnome; gaining power from drinking a person's blood is creepy and evil.
It's an easy choice: If you're worried about drinking blood being an evil act, (a) play an evil character, or (b) don't take the Blood Drinker feat. Your character lives in a universe where there are absolutes for the alignments, and the physics of that universe says "Feeding on unwilling intelligent creatures is an evil act."
My only problem with this is that they are not using this in the rules. By this the sanguine blooded sorc drinking blood to heal himself should be an evil act. But it doesn't have the evil descriptor that other similar abilities have.
And yes, it should be no different with a dragon's blood. But remember: Doing a little evil act now and then will not change your alignment./offtopic: I'm always amused by the above quote because I happen to know someone named Rolf.
So there seems to be some leeway for "It's a cultural thing".BUUUUUUUT, that's a special case where the race in question does it out of necessity. They NEED it, not just would benefit from it.
I played a Lizardfolk who ate people he deemed worthy in combat out of respect and a desire to gain a fraction of that person's might. One of my party members even agreed to let him eat him if he falls before he does.
You're still "treating an intelligent, sentient creature as food. That's evil.".
You'll note that this is a blanket statement not limited to the Feat itself.
Granted it's one guy's opinion, and thankfully it hasn't been FAQ'd or anything (yet...), but it IS still the closest thing you've got to an official answer on this question RULES-wise.
What everyone else is throwing out is pure speculation or "This is how I'd run that", which belongs in a different forum.
But you are taking that out of context from the thread it came from. It isn't an answer on this question at all. By pulling it into this thread it is worse than the pure speculation as you are using the developers statements on very different subjects.
Besides, it is not pure speculation or "This is how I'd run that" to state that if using the dragon blood was immediately evil, that it would state that just like it does for Blood Drinker and death knell. That is not a feature they would hide in one book or another.
Now, to play Devil's Advocate with myself (or the opposite of that), cannibalism is not inherently evil in Golarion. Lizardfolk, for example, are True Neutral as a race, and practice cannibalism.
So there seems to be some leeway for "It's a cultural thing".
BUUUUUUUT, that's a special case where the race in question does it out of necessity. They NEED it, not just would benefit from it.
How does that work with the "treating an intelligent, sentient creature as food. That's evil." comment from Sean? I don't think it is valid in these situation, but why does that comment only kick in if people gain a benefit from it?
We're not talking about eating animated objects made out of chocolate syrup, we're talking about the blood of the living. If you bite someone and swallow human blood, you're saying, "this creature is food to me, I will gain sustenance from drinking its blood." And if you're doing that to an intelligent creature, you're treating intelligent creatures as food. That's evil.
If Rolf has to kill someone in order to defend himself, we accept that.
If Rolf is attacked and has to resort to biting his attacker in order to escape or avoid being killed, we accept that.
If Rolf bites his attacker and decides to swallow the attacker's blood, that's just creepy and inappropriate.
If Rolf swallow's the attacker's blood and his eyes light up with joy and he gets stronger for doing so, that's evil.I doesn't matter if Rolf is a human, dhampir, half-orc, or gnome; gaining power from drinking a person's blood is creepy and evil.
It's an easy choice: If you're worried about drinking blood being an evil act, (a) play an evil character, or (b) don't take the Blood Drinker feat. Your character lives in a universe where there are absolutes for the alignments, and the physics of that universe says "Feeding on unwilling intelligent creatures is an evil act."
My only problem with this is that they are not using this in the rules. By this the sanguine blooded sorc drinking blood to heal himself should be an evil act. But it doesn't have the evil descriptor that other similar abilities have.
And yes, it should be no different with a dragon's blood. But remember: Doing a little evil act now and then will not change your alignment./offtopic: I'm always amused by the above quote because I happen to know someone named Rolf.
This is the problem with bringing Sean's comment in this thread.
They are using this in the rules. For the single feat that Sean K. Reynolds is talking about in that post.
Blood Drinker requires that you feed on people while they are still alive. The sanguine sorcerer ability only works on creatures that are already dead. There is a major difference in how the rules handle these situations.
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If it's not hurting, oppressing, or killing someone, it's not evil. Source: The freakin' alignment rules.
Doesn't matter if it is creepy or gross. Creepy and gross is not evil (though a lot of evil may be creepy and gross).
If it's not hurting, oppressing, or killing someone, it's not evil. Source: The freakin' alignment rules.
Doesn't matter if it is creepy or gross. Creepy and gross is not evil (though a lot of evil may be creepy and gross).
I think dragon crafting could be considered 'hurting, oppressing, or killing'.
I mean, the fact that their is an industry for your organs and bodily fluids seems creepy (at least in the sense of the black market, rather than legitimate organ donors; hard to imagine most dragons doing that)
This brings up the Murderhobo Paradox:
Do you just happen to get loot from legitimate fights and killings, or are you fighting and killing in order to get loot?
Sometimes when I see these threads, I imagine the Blendtec spokesman appearing and asking, "Is it evil? That is the question."
"Dragon smoke. Don't breathe this."
If it's not hurting, oppressing, or killing someone, it's not evil. Source: The freakin' alignment rules.
Doesn't matter if it is creepy or gross. Creepy and gross is not evil (though a lot of evil may be creepy and gross).
I think dragon crafting could be considered 'hurting, oppressing, or killing'.
I mean, the fact that their is an industry for your organs and bodily fluids seems creepy (at least in the sense of the black market, rather than legitimate organ donors; hard to imagine most dragons doing that)
This brings up the Murderhobo Paradox:
Do you just happen to get loot from legitimate fights and killings, or are you fighting and killing in order to get loot?
That entirely depends on why you're fighting a dragon. Are you doing it for his horde, or for some other reason?
Though I suppose your line of reasoning means anyone wearing dragonhide armor is evil. I'm sure that's a great idea.
If it's not hurting, oppressing, or killing someone, it's not evil. Source: The freakin' alignment rules.
Doesn't matter if it is creepy or gross. Creepy and gross is not evil (though a lot of evil may be creepy and gross).
I think dragon crafting could be considered 'hurting, oppressing, or killing'.
I mean, the fact that their is an industry for your organs and bodily fluids seems creepy (at least in the sense of the black market, rather than legitimate organ donors; hard to imagine most dragons doing that)
This brings up the Murderhobo Paradox:
Do you just happen to get loot from legitimate fights and killings, or are you fighting and killing in order to get loot?
Killing something for the sole purpose of using their body parts is something that falls in line of evil, yes.
But that's not what's happening here. All they are doing is making use of parts that would otherwise just rot into the ground that they are planted on. The reasoning for killing them can be something completely different, which you seem to think isn't the case at all.
It's no different than Native Americans hunting buffalo to survive in the wild, and then using every bit of their body parts for clothing, tools, food, etc. The only difference is that these aren't Awakened Buffalo.
For argument's sake, let's say they are. Does that make them evil, hunting and killing these buffalo for survival?
Murderhobo paradox makes no sense; people have their motivations, and being motivated by greed, while quite negative, isn't inherently evil, since currency can be acquired through honorable work and cheap trickery alike. The point is, it doesn't matter how the character gets his money, just that he gets his money, and whether he gets it from honest adventuring or through manipulation and coercion determines whether he is Good or Evil.
Other people are motivated through a driven cause they feel to uphold, either through a personal attachment, or for an obligation they agreed to do, and the same concept can apply, though the cause itself does have an influence in your alignment (for example, if you just want to kill everyone, that's Chaotic Stupid/Stupid Evil right there).
I come back to this story of drinking dragon blood, in relation to this:
https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dragon's%20blood
This seems extremely cheap at all to me as a way to remove negative levels. Because the only other way to remove negative levels is the Restoration spell, which in addition to being a level 4 spell requires 1000 gp of component, with the same limit of 1 negative level per week. Hence my surprise! Where is the trap with the dragon blood?
https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Restoration