Say you're an 8th level sorcerer. You have the silent and still spell metamagic feats. You see some enemies get around the melee characters and come towards you. An unseen caster has countered a few of your spells that you've tried casting, so you decide to cast a silent still flaming sphere.
Can the spell still be countered, despite the fact that there is no somatic, verbal or material component to recognize and try to counter?
Yes, and technically with no penalty.
Edit: Allow me to further explain.
Despite not having verbal or somatic or material components, the enemy still gets to make a spellcraft check to identify the spell being cast. Which you'll recall is part of the necessary process of countering a spell. By RAW, there is no adjustment to the check to identify the spell despite having these components removed from it.
I believe there were developer comments to the effect that it would be reasonable to raise the DC for the check, but there are currently no rules for it. And even if you remove all components, they still get to attempt to make the check. With the idea being that there is some sort of magical manifestations of the spell that cannot be hidden or removed (with the exception of some bard spellcasting feat I want to say).
Do remember that to counter a spell the other caster needs to ready and action to counter, successfully identify the spell, and then have the appropriate spell to counter it.
Mmk. I could've sworn there was at least increases in the spellcraft DC.
Claxon is correct. I was remember the thread because I was arguing against it making sense.
edit: Well actually the thread in question was about identifying the spell, but the point still stands.
"What, casting, me? Nah, man, I'm just reciting some poetry."
Perform(comedy). Cast spells by telling 'yo mama' jokes.
"Yo mama so ugly, even Calistria wouldn't touch her"
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"Yo mama so ugly, Lamashtu looked at her and said 'what the **** is that nasty thing?'"
"Yo mama so fat, I had to cast reduce person instead"?
"Yo mama so fat, I thought I was fighting a bloatmage".
*drops the mic*
(with the exception of some bard spellcasting feat I want to say)Yes, Spellsong. Love that feat. "What, casting, me? Nah, man, I'm just reciting some poetry."
And for all other classes Secret Signs
Source Inner Sea World Guide pg. 288, Pathfinder Campaign Setting pg. 57
You are particularly adept at communicating with others via innuendo, gestures, and secret hand signs.
Prerequisites: Int 13.
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on Bluff checks made to pass secret messages. In addition, you are adept at hiding the somatic components of spellcasting. If you cast a spell that has only somatic components, an observer must make a Perception check opposed by your Sleight of Hand check to notice your spellcasting. Spellcraft checks made to identify any spell you cast that has somatic components take a –2 penalty.
(with the exception of some bard spellcasting feat I want to say)Yes, Spellsong. Love that feat. "What, casting, me? Nah, man, I'm just reciting some poetry."And for all other classes Secret Signs
Source Inner Sea World Guide pg. 288, Pathfinder Campaign Setting pg. 57
You are particularly adept at communicating with others via innuendo, gestures, and secret hand signs.
Prerequisites: Int 13.
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on Bluff checks made to pass secret messages. In addition, you are adept at hiding the somatic components of spellcasting. If you cast a spell that has only somatic components, an observer must make a Perception check opposed by your Sleight of Hand check to notice your spellcasting. Spellcraft checks made to identify any spell you cast that has somatic components take a –2 penalty.
Ahh, that's a feat I hadn't seen before.
In any event, to make your spell casting concealed it requires a feat of some sort to do so. And this one only works on spells that only have somatic components. And even using metamagic to get rid of the other components wouldn't work by RAW.
Pretty much, yes, it requires a feat. Greater invisibility here could be your friend, along with stealth/cover rules.
Moreover, should you choose to abide by them yourself, you could impart the distance, cover, and distraction penalties to the spellcraft DC as per RAW, and just hope the spellcraft check fails because the person's 50' away and you've got some partial cover.
Just like punching someone lethally requires a feat, spellcasting doesn't get off so easily. I know you didn't sound like you were fishing for that kind of treatment, but usually getting around mechanics requires lots of feats to make you specialized.
That would be the best gnome bard ever. Use the Prankster archetype from the ARG, and do spellsong with the mock performance. They'll be angry, have pealties to attack and skill checks, ignore your allies and having spells cast at them. Sounds like a ton of fun.
Also, 'Yo mama so fat, she's got more chins than the nation of Tien.'
(with the exception of some bard spellcasting feat I want to say)Yes, Spellsong. Love that feat. "What, casting, me? Nah, man, I'm just reciting some poetry."And for all other classes Secret Signs
Source Inner Sea World Guide pg. 288, Pathfinder Campaign Setting pg. 57
You are particularly adept at communicating with others via innuendo, gestures, and secret hand signs.
Prerequisites: Int 13.
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on Bluff checks made to pass secret messages. In addition, you are adept at hiding the somatic components of spellcasting. If you cast a spell that has only somatic components, an observer must make a Perception check opposed by your Sleight of Hand check to notice your spellcasting. Spellcraft checks made to identify any spell you cast that has somatic components take a –2 penalty.
Ahh, that's a feat I hadn't seen before.
In any event, to make your spell casting concealed it requires a feat of some sort to do so. And this one only works on spells that only have somatic components. And even using metamagic to get rid of the other components wouldn't work by RAW.
And, funny enough, that feat actually makes your spells *easier* to identify if you cast them Stilled compared to if you had just cast them normally (since the opponent takes a penalty when your spell has somatic components, but they make the check as normal if you use Still Spell on it).
And, funny enough, that feat actually makes your spells *easier* to identify if you cast them Stilled compared to if you had just cast them normally (since the opponent takes a penalty when your spell has somatic components, but they make the check as normal if you use Still Spell on it).(with the exception of some bard spellcasting feat I want to say)Yes, Spellsong. Love that feat. "What, casting, me? Nah, man, I'm just reciting some poetry."And for all other classes Secret Signs
Source Inner Sea World Guide pg. 288, Pathfinder Campaign Setting pg. 57
You are particularly adept at communicating with others via innuendo, gestures, and secret hand signs.
Prerequisites: Int 13.
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on Bluff checks made to pass secret messages. In addition, you are adept at hiding the somatic components of spellcasting. If you cast a spell that has only somatic components, an observer must make a Perception check opposed by your Sleight of Hand check to notice your spellcasting. Spellcraft checks made to identify any spell you cast that has somatic components take a –2 penalty.
Ahh, that's a feat I hadn't seen before.
In any event, to make your spell casting concealed it requires a feat of some sort to do so. And this one only works on spells that only have somatic components. And even using metamagic to get rid of the other components wouldn't work by RAW.
No metamagic adjustment here, though.
It's actually really unfortunate that there isn't a rule to take Silent Spell/Still Spell into account for identification. (Insert houserule here, of course). Not just because it would, you know, make sense, but because it would make the Still Spell/Silent Spell feats something that people might actually consider taking.
To be fair, according to the Spellcraft rules, if someone can't see you, they can't make any Spellcraft checks.
So.. Yeah, no help from still/silent.