I'm putting this in here because I think that in comparison to 1e all other editions are lacking in the loot department. Why is there a loot limit in further editions when the 1e game I'm playing as a paladin seems fine? Keep in mind I always donate all loot at the end of each adventure, and sometimes local churches reward me for it. What happened to that?
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Crafting
Magic shops
Random drop tables in 1e
1e is a deathtrap, you are expected to tear through consumables
'Monty Haul' problem some DMs have
Newer edition class specialisation make most random drops useless (yay, a +2 Merciful Aklys) and nobody cares about tracking and selling all this junk so GMs don't bother handing it out
Starting with 3rd edition (and including 4E and Pathfinder), PCs are able to trade loot for magic items - and can buy or make anything they can afford, with only some limits. So having lots of treasure directly increases PC power, which makes it necessary for GMs to increase the threats against them, which may increase the rewards PCs earn, and so on, and so on. Giving too much treasure literally breaks the game.
In 1E, there's only so much you can do with a million gold pieces. And buying a fantabulous magic sword isn't one of those options.
Interestingly, the default assumptions of 5E remove both the magic item dependency, and the ability to buy or make magic items.
Starting with 3rd edition (and including 4E and Pathfinder), PCs are able to trade loot for magic items - and can buy or make anything they can afford, with only some limits. So having lots of treasure directly increases PC power, which makes it necessary for GMs to increase the threats against them, which may increase the rewards PCs earn, and so on, and so on. Giving too much treasure literally breaks the game.
In 1E, there's only so much you can do with a million gold pieces. And buying a fantabulous magic sword isn't one of those options.
Right. The total amount of loot is much higher, but the amount of USEFUL loot is usually lower.
Sure, there may be a occ shoppe here or there with a few potions, maybe some scrolls and a items or two, but custom building your PC for the perfect "christmas tree" just doesn't happen.
For example, a fighter would be unwise to specialize in a unusual weapon until later, if and when he finds one. Sure, +1 longswords are everywhere, but a great-axe might be hard to find.
1e is a deathtrap, you are expected to tear through consumables
No more than other editions.
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Actually 1E is a deathtrap, you are expected to be much, much more careful then in other editions, because healing resources are much, much harder to come by. You also take days, not minutes, to heal up when its time to do so.
==Aelryinth
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Not only that, but SoD effects are much, much more common. Poison, for example, just kills you outright (even from a 1hp giant centipede). None of this namby-pamby Str damage.
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The person who dmed my group for1ed in our late teens early 20s was strict with following the random table rolls. This ment we probably had close ro the fygsx intended average...
Needless to says the group once got into conflict over a dagger +1/+4 vs reptiles. I want to stress there were not a lot of advent three eating reptiles Presbytery. Simply a magic weapon was percieved as that valuable.
1e feels more campy in that death is often an achievement depending on how you die. Bit by werewolf, curse trap, snake poison, needle trap, huge demon, pitfall, large orc, slime, mold, and countless spells. 1e is rock paper scissors, 3.5 is Chinese checkers in that one is calculated response and the other is trial and error.
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I'm playing 1e right now and it currently is both more entertaining and makes more sense than any PFS scenario I've played, but to go into PFS in detail would be a tangent.
I've half a mind to make my own society... with blackjack... and ropers!
Actually 1E is a deathtrap, you are expected to be much, much more careful then in other editions, because healing resources are much, much harder to come by. You also take days, not minutes, to heal up when its time to do so.
Simply not true. Clerics could cast CLW just like today, there were potions, etc.
We had no issues with healing resources.
Also, in 1st ed, 1GP = 1XP, and it cost a hefty sum to train up to next level. Although lots of people ignored those rules...
PCs were expected to sneak around, try to avoid fights as much as possible, and go for the big score when they had the chance.
And once you were past 9th-10th level, you needed the 1GP=1XP due to the staggering amount of exp needed to level up.
I find that 1e and 2e were much more loot heavy for the survivors. Because not every character was expected to make it. Getting killed was really easy and coming back from the dead was really worth it, because honestly, it was just about the only thing you could spend 10,000 gp on without earning political repercussions. The game explicitly gave you political standing and followers if you managed to get to name level in some classes. It lead to it being an accomplishment to get up to 8th-11th level, it was usually pointless to go further since each character who died and couldn't be raised was irreplaceable at that point.
So much changed with the advent of WBL and magic items being createable and having prices. Creating characters above level 1 became much easier. GMs now had a tool to tell them if they were being too stingy or too loose with the treasure. Stupidly good loot like Luckstones and Boots of Striding and Springing got nerfed heavily in the change from 2e to 3.0.
Also, in 1st ed, 1GP = 1XP, and it cost a hefty sum to train up to next level. Although lots of people ignored those rules...
Training was optional.
Actually 1E is a deathtrap, you are expected to be much, much more careful then in other editions, because healing resources are much, much harder to come by. You also take days, not minutes, to heal up when its time to do so.
Simply not true. Clerics could cast CLW just like today, there were potions, etc.
We had no issues with healing resources.
1) you couldn't buy the potions.
2) CLW did d8. no CMW until 2e. CSW was 4th level. Healing the whole party took DAYS if you were low on hit points. And you pretty much had to devote every spell slot to healing spells to make it happen.Fast Forward to today, where one CLW wand can reasonably expect to heal the entire party after a day of adventuring all the way up to 15th level or so. There are cure spells for every level, clerics can swap out combat spells for healing spells, and Channelling allows mass healing of the whole party 'for free.'
A party of 10th level adventurers creeping out a dungeon at 10% of hit points and no spells could expect to have 3-4 days of downtime at least to get back to full health.
In PF? They are back to full health with one wand and pocket change. With no wand? They are still back to full after the cleric Channels for everyone and finishes off with a few Cure spells for the most damaged.
It took a LOT of healing for a 100 HP fighter down to 10 points to get his health back, at least until Heal came along.
==Aelryinth
Actually 1E is a deathtrap, you are expected to be much, much more careful then in other editions, because healing resources are much, much harder to come by. You also take days, not minutes, to heal up when its time to do so.
Simply not true. Clerics could cast CLW just like today, there were potions, etc.
We had no issues with healing resources.
1) you couldn't buy the potions.
2) CLW did d8. no CMW until 2e. CSW was 4th level. Healing the whole party took DAYS if you were low on hit points. And you pretty much had to devote every spell slot to healing spells to make it happen.A party of 10th level adventurers creeping out a dungeon at 10% of hit points and no spells could expect to have 3-4 days of downtime at least to get back to full health.
Actually you could. In Greyhawk, etc there were places to buy some simple items, and you could get healing at temples.
I played OD&D & AD&D for hours and hours for years and years and I never had that happen. One day at most.
When Gary fygsx dies we pulled out our books and played a tribute game..the dm looked over rules that he apparently did not read too clearly as a teenager.
It was fun but I do not recommend 3d6.. one of the players only qualified for fighter because of his high stat of a 9.
But for the most part the core rules of the game Really all sound even if badly in need of proper editing.
I found not knowing if you'd win every encounter and having to... runaway made it rather thrilling.
Also in 1st ed after 9th level your character was expected to build a castle or tower or church and maintain it which was expensive at best that really used to eat the money
@ mojorat
Ahh the good old days
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Nostalgia it's not what it used to be
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Actually 1E is a deathtrap, you are expected to be much, much more careful then in other editions, because healing resources are much, much harder to come by. You also take days, not minutes, to heal up when its time to do so.
Simply not true. Clerics could cast CLW just like today, there were potions, etc.
We had no issues with healing resources.
1) you couldn't buy the potions.
2) CLW did d8. no CMW until 2e. CSW was 4th level. Healing the whole party took DAYS if you were low on hit points. And you pretty much had to devote every spell slot to healing spells to make it happen.A party of 10th level adventurers creeping out a dungeon at 10% of hit points and no spells could expect to have 3-4 days of downtime at least to get back to full health.
Actually you could. In Greyhawk, etc there were places to buy some simple items, and you could get healing at temples.
I played OD&D & AD&D for hours and hours for years and years and I never had that happen. One day at most.
Those healing potion sellers generally didn't come along towards 2E, and were HIGHLY situational...i.e. major metropolis. There was ONE potion seller in Waterdeep, probably the most detailed fantasy city ever made. Go up the coast to Neverwinter, and you were SOL.
Temples charged you an arm and a leg for healing spells, and generally only had a few spells per day. They charged you for each of them.
Neither means anything when you were out in the wilds adventuring. Unless the DM handwaved things so you had access to easy and cheap healing, it just wasn't available. But the game itself was MUCH skimpier on healing.
Also, remember that only Heal scaled in power. D8, 2d8+1 and 3d8+3 until you were 12th level. Ugh.
As a key point, I will note to you that one of the aspects of 'Gygaxian grognard play' is that the cleric is always assumed to be just a healer and loaded up on healing spells whenever possible. That's a trope because they needed all that healing, there just wasn't that much available, and the cleric had it all...and it was never enough to do a recovery for a full party down 80%.
Buying unlimited spells at temples and potions was not part of the core game. Actually, I'm surprised a Greyhawk game let you buy some from the churches, as usually those campaigns had a hard line about only providing services to the faithful, i.e. those who regularly tithed above and beyond paying for the spell.
Suffice it to say, your experience with healing is not the way most 1E gamers had it. Bill Webb, in his new book, even notes that healing is much more restricted, i.e. a 1E game style.
Seriously, one of the hugest breaks from 1E is the availability of easy healing, and #1 there is the Cure Light Wounds wand.
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==Aelryinth
As a key point, I will note to you that one of the aspects of 'Gygaxian grognard play' is that the cleric is always assumed to be just a healer and loaded up on healing spells whenever possible.... Suffice it to say, your experience with healing is not the way most 1E gamers had it.
The SoCal group I was part of was one of the earliest and most influential D&D groups around. HQed mostly at Aero Hobbies, we had John Eric Holmes, Dave Hargrave as frequent visitors, etc.
Do note that I wrote the first 3pp D&D supplement and also invented the Thief class.
So, perhaps your experience with healing is not the way most 1E gamers had it? How many years did you play AD&D?
And, our clerics were not "just a healer' they were quite good in melee combat.
Not to mention there were things like the Staff of Curing.
I can go with that.
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As a key point, I will note to you that one of the aspects of 'Gygaxian grognard play' is that the cleric is always assumed to be just a healer and loaded up on healing spells whenever possible.... Suffice it to say, your experience with healing is not the way most 1E gamers had it.The SoCal group I was part of was one of the earliest and most influential D&D groups around. HQed mostly at Aero Hobbies, we had John Eric Holmes, Dave Hargrave as frequent visitors, etc.
Do note that I wrote the first 3pp D&D supplement and also invented the Thief class.
So, perhaps your experience with healing is not the way most 1E gamers had it? How many years did you play AD&D?
And, our clerics were not "just a healer' they were quite good in melee combat.
Not to mention there were things like the Staff of Curing.
Pre-Staff of Curing/healing (which I never gave out or ever found in +20 years of Basic/1st/2nd ed) you loaded up CLW X2 (or more, if you had a big group and high Wisdom) at low level.
Their just wasn't any other reliable healing besides potions of healing or extra-healing (scarce), which you drank (get this) IN COMBAT - if you were that hard up. But that's a whole other debate and we don't want to go down that road.
Yeah, but 'there was an excessive amount of healing in 1E' is definitely NOT a 1E trope.
Played 1E for about ten years. Definitely didn't have access to potion shops or temples for most modules/adventures. Staves of Curing were precious because they weren't rechargeable...and rare, to boot!
My gameplay is based more on modules then DM moderated home campaigns, however, which allow all sorts of tweaking. It sounds like you were more home campaign based...which I'm not saying is 'wrong', but it's a different core experience, as it were.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, but 'there was an excessive amount of healing in 1E' is definitely NOT a 1E trope.
Played 1E for about ten years. Definitely didn't have access to potion shops or temples for most modules/adventures. Staves of Curing were precious because they weren't rechargeable...and rare, to boot!
Hardly "excessive" but adequate. Yes, after several long combat you often had to take a whole day off to heal.
Staff was rechargeable, iirc. At least the 2nd ed is, for sure.
Yeah, and didn't Staves of Healing have a limit on how many times they could use each power on a character, and each power per day? With 25 charges, you could run through a lot of healing pretty fast back then.
But, yeah, plenty of ways to get healing...but they weren't COMMON ways, nor cheap. Not like 3e+.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, and didn't Staves of Healing have a limit on how many times they could use each power on a character, and each power per day? With 25 charges, you could run through a lot of healing pretty fast back then.
Yes, I think once per day per PC.
You also had to pay for training which sucked the loot right back out of you.
Actually 1E is a deathtrap, you are expected to be much, much more careful then in other editions, because healing resources are much, much harder to come by. You also take days, not minutes, to heal up when its time to do so.
Simply not true. Clerics could cast CLW just like today, there were potions, etc.
But they couldn't channel energy for mass AoE heals, which probably accounts for 60% or more of party healing. They couldn't spontaneously convert other spells into cure spells, which means the spells aren't always available.
And while there were potions, there wasn't Olivander's wand shop or Granny's potion shop, so you couldn't easily stock up on hundreds of CLW spells.
Actually 1E is a deathtrap, you are expected to be much, much more careful then in other editions, because healing resources are much, much harder to come by. You also take days, not minutes, to heal up when its time to do so.
Simply not true. Clerics could cast CLW just like today, there were potions, etc.
We had no issues with healing resources.
1) you couldn't buy the potions.
2) CLW did d8. no CMW until 2e. CSW was 4th level. Healing the whole party took DAYS if you were low on hit points. And you pretty much had to devote every spell slot to healing spells to make it happen.A party of 10th level adventurers creeping out a dungeon at 10% of hit points and no spells could expect to have 3-4 days of downtime at least to get back to full health.
Actually you could. In Greyhawk, etc there were places to buy some simple items, and you could get healing at temples.
I played OD&D & AD&D for hours and hours for years and years and I never had that happen. One day at most.
I think an interesting note is that the game was less uniform in the "old" days. Each gaming table played the game in a different way while the more codified rules of the modern games tend to make game play somewhat more uniform from table to table.
I was playing 1E AD&D back in the early 80's and our group was NEVER allowed to buy magic items (not even potions of healing) in a store or a temple. NEVER. Aelryinth's recounting of what 1E healing was like was very much what my experience was like: healing was hard to come by and took a long time. Now the PF group just buys a wand of CLW and the cleric doesn't even need to memorize Cure (X) Wounds anymore.
I think those of us who remember 1E fondly are viewing it through the lens of nostalgia. Those were weekends of gaming in junior high and high school, before people had internet in every home. And everything felt like an achievement in 1E, surviving every random encounter felt like a huge accomplishment. Finding a longsword +1/+3 vs. undead felt like finding the most powerful magic item ever. Even learning a new spell as a magic-user or disabling a trap as thief was a big deal. And succeeding at any save vs. death roll (save vs. poison or save vs. wands, staves, and rods for example) was a big deal.3E and PF improved the mechanics by orders of magnitude. But if you ever faced nilbogs in combat and survived (probably by running away), it was something you might talk about for years.
I agree with this sentiment. I played D&D in the 80's when I was in middle school and high school and pretty much stopped playing TTRPG after that. I have tried coming back into gaming a few times over the past 25 years but can never seem to recapture that "feeling" while gaming that I experienced when I was in my teens. I'm beginning to think it is mostly just a fondness/longing for my lost youth (I am now 42 y/o) more than a desire to continue playing TTRPG.
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I find it immensely disrepectful to continuously tell people that their opinion isn't REALLY their opinion.
I'll leave it at that, since my previous post where I gave a fuller account of what type of person would do this was apparently deemed not only worthy of being removed, but even of being removed without the courtesy of an admin acknowledgement that it existed. Yet apparently the posts that state that preferring 1e is WRONG and can only be rooted in nostalgia is allowed to stand.
I lost a lot of respect for Paizo today.
I find it immensely disrepectful to continuously tell people that their opinion isn't REALLY their opinion.
I'll leave it at that, since my previous post where I gave a fuller account of what type of person would do this was apparently deemed not only worthy of being removed, but even of being removed without the courtesy of an admin acknowledgement that it existed. Yet apparently the posts that state that preferring 1e is WRONG and can o.ly be rooted in nostalgia is allowed to stand.
I lost a lot of respect for Paizo today.
Hmmm...I don't know if you are referring to my post but if so it may be that I worded things poorly. I actually prefer the "old-school" (B/X, 1E AD&D) games to the modern games (3.X/PF/4E). I don't use the term "nostalgia" as a pejorative rather as a way to convey a pining for or dreamlike remembrance of past events.
I haven't seen anyone in this thread indicating that preferring one edition over another is wrong.
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I started playing with 1E AD&D(it was more a combination of AD&D and Arduin Grimore) back in 78-79. I dont remember healing be all THAT hard to come by being that temples sold potions. Early on it was coming up with the gold to buy those potions that was hard part. After about 3rd level buying cure potions was easier. You still had to trek back to the cities to resupply.
Death by traps or poison was a very real threat and made life more interesting and thrilling, in my opinion any ways.
Magic items were rarer and valued more then they seem to be now.
Because the 1e cleric had to be a healer, nobody wanted to play clerics. And that led to years of bad press for clerics, resulting in 3e having to make clerics good enough to make people want to play them. And then people invented the wand CLW and worked out that actually a cleric didn't have to be a healbot, with the consequence that the 3e cleric was about the most powerful class. And we're still living with that now.
A 6th level cleric (somewhere in the sweet spot of where 1e was good) with 14+ Wis could cast FIVE, count 'em, FIVE CLWs per day for a majestic average of 22.5 hp. He could of course do more if he used his 2nd and 3rd level slots, but that's not a great idea. PF characters have more hp than 1e (bigger dice, more Con bonus) so that's probably about 40 in modern currency. A 6th level PF cleric with 13 Cha can channel 4 times for 3d6 = up to 12d6 to every character, ie up to 210 hp average. Without casting a single spell.
A Staff of Curing was 25,000 gp. Used to cure wounds, that works out at 74gp per hit point. It could be recharged, though there were of course no rules for it. A Potion of Healing was a very reasonable 400gp = 57gp per hp; Extra-Healing was even better at a mere 48gp/hp.
As regards training costs, there's nothing in the DMG (p86) to say that it's optional. It costs 1500gp x level x (some factor from 1-4), where that factor depends on how well you've played your class and alignment. So let's say you've been good, say 2. So that's 3000gp x level.
Now recall that 1gp=1xp. So to get enough gp to get to 2nd level takes 3000gp, which must have earned you 3000xp. That's enough to get any character well into 2nd level, and some to 3rd. It's even worse next time; getting to 3rd level needs 6000xp. At this rate, a character will have spent 108,000 gp on training to get to 9th level, for which a Thief would need only 110,000xp. Someone clearly hadn't thought this through. In any case, every single cp the poor chap had picked up would have had to go to training, even if he'd done nothing but find cash lying about in the street.
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I find it immensely disrepectful to continuously tell people that their opinion isn't REALLY their opinion.
I'll leave it at that, since my previous post where I gave a fuller account of what type of person would do this was apparently deemed not only worthy of being removed, but even of being removed without the courtesy of an admin acknowledgement that it existed. Yet apparently the posts that state that preferring 1e is WRONG and can only be rooted in nostalgia is allowed to stand.
I lost a lot of respect for Paizo today.
And now my previous post is back.
Am confused.
My group regularly duel classed its wizards starting off as a first level thief and then swapping to wizard on second level. The reasoning was they could be a little more useful after they used all of thier spells once they hit 3rd.
Kthulhu
Are your posts aimed at me ?