That was a great read. Very good points.
it certainly doesn't mean you can take on dragons and expect to win
Well to be fair attacking that whopping Touch AC 5 or so does make it a bit easier.
i have to say my problem is with gunslingers is not one of flavor at all, but mostly the first few levels are terribly boring as i hardly have time to shoot and reload in one round. i agree with you fully that guns can have an equal place in a fantasy world.
as far as magic and science exsisting in the same world i see an arms race that tends toward mastery of and messing with, physics. how does one fight a tank thats electrically grounded? acid, or earthquakes, or pillers of earth to topple the tanks over. in a world where science and magic exsist i do see the evocation school of magic taking a hit, but magic as a whole would stay
that is assumeing that there isnt some kind of salam witch hunt in said fantasy world
I'm actually working on some feats for use with firearms to combat that exact issue johnlocke90. We (my gaming group) are fine with adding guns to pathfinder, but the "reloading a flintlock multiple times in 6 seconds" doesn't sit well with anyone (and many of us are shooters). Instead, we are trying to come up with a way to make Firearms high burst damage weapons, where they can deliver a big hit early on, but then require a lengthy reload.
A lot of it is people not understanding history or literature, but a lot of it is shoddy firearm mechanics.
Yeah, pretty much that. I like the Gunslinger class, but I despise Pathfinder's firearms mechanics...
Question for you Lemmy (and others). Take the gunslinger class out of the equation for a moment. Let's say that the mechanics stayed essentially the same, but with the following changes. .
#1 All firearms require a full round action to reload (Standard with Alchemical cartridge or Rapid reload, move with both. Reload is always a minimum of a move action).
#2 A feat exactly like Vital Strike, restricted to firearms only, that scales with level, with lower entry requirement (thinking+4 BAB)
#3 A feat that provides for "exploding" damage dice.
Would something like that be better?
Suspension of disbelief becomes more difficult as things come closer to things you actually know about. It's easy to hand wave how magic works because it's, well, Magic. I'm sure for some people (nutritionists? Lol) that stuff does bother them.
An old timey musket would take at least 30 seconds to reload. In close range, you would fire one shot, then drop the weapon and pick up a sword.The game doesn't rules for realistic weapon degradation or food consumption either. People take absurd amounts of counter-intuitive and unrealistic pseudologic in fantasy worlds without a word of complain. I don't understand why it's suddenly All Realism All the Time the second guns get involved.Its not just that its unrealistic. I have trouble even imagining what the combat looks like. And its important for many people to be able to envision combat in their game.
Seriously, what would someone loading and firing a musket 4 times in 6 seconds look like?
To me, it makes much more since for the game to use late 1800s weaponry, with revolvers and bolt action weaponry. Which is what I do envision, but its certainly not medieval.
This.
Gunslinger is a great class for the setting, but making it possible for then to Rapid Shot/ multi attack looks absurd. For now, I didn't have that kind of problem (the only gunner that I mastered used Vital Strike instead) but I don't think I would let it go...
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A lot of it is people not understanding history or literature, but a lot of it is shoddy firearm mechanics.
This. Infinitely this.
I would prefer that the guns were more advanced, like revolvers and carbine rifles and stuff.
Also, you know who the Gunslinger class always reminded me of, despite his not using guns? Zorro.
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Few things to address:
1) The reason it's not good to call them Musketeers is obvious if you break down the word. Musketeers. As in people who operate Muskets. The class specializes in more than just muskets.
So did the Musketeers.
I get that people want more realistic reload times, but I gotta tell you. Spending five rounds to reload a weapon is hella boring.
If I don't force players to upkeep their swords on a daily basis, and if players can grapple dragons, then I'm fine with players reloading every round. Verisimilitude should never win over fun.
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For me, it's not really about realism.
If I'm going to have gun in pseudo medieval/renaissance fantasy, I want people to use them roughly like real world equivalents in the equivalent time frame. Like pirate movies or the musketeers. Fire shot and draw steel. Or in the case of the musketeers, generally ignore them except when actually doing military duty.
At least for the majority of people. Even the majority of adventurers. The occasional high level gunslinger with magic guns or who's just so unbelievably skilled he can reload in the blink of an eye is fine.
So, of course you also disallow unarmed attacks against someone wearing heavy metal armor. That's just not how unarmed attacks were used. I mean maybe the occasional high level monk who's so unbelievably skilled that he can would be okay.
Trying to match historical usage accurately is attempting to enforce realism. You're trying to make the fantasy game element match the way that it was in (historical) reality.
You folks on the other side of the fence can act like wanting a half-way semi realistic loading time tacked onto firearms is so heinous, and that a fantasy game doesn't have to play by those rules, but the mental image of a guy popping off a musket 40 times a minute is just silly. Realistically we shouldn't expect an early firearms user to be able to attack with their firearm every round...at all, ever. If you really were gunning for a sense of realism gunslinger's would probably focus on doing a completely ludicrous amount of damage...once, maybe twice an encounter, to represent how deadly guns actually are. It'd be a base class focused around going full nova...because, what's impulse control? That actually sounds like a pretty fun class concept, you just run around for a bit, cutting things with your sword, and then eventually when the BBEG pops out of his hidey hole you cap him with your piece for 75% of his health, then stand behind the barbarian, who can do that much damage every round anyway.
But, you know...realism is ultimately overrated, I wanna be an elf and shoot things with my gun, hella times.
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For me, it's not really about realism.
If I'm going to have gun in pseudo medieval/renaissance fantasy, I want people to use them roughly like real world equivalents in the equivalent time frame. Like pirate movies or the musketeers. Fire shot and draw steel. Or in the case of the musketeers, generally ignore them except when actually doing military duty.
At least for the majority of people. Even the majority of adventurers. The occasional high level gunslinger with magic guns or who's just so unbelievably skilled he can reload in the blink of an eye is fine.
So, of course you also disallow unarmed attacks against someone wearing heavy metal armor. That's just not how unarmed attacks were used. I mean maybe the occasional high level monk who's so unbelievably skilled that he can would be okay.
Trying to match historical usage accurately is attempting to enforce realism. You're trying to make the fantasy game element match the way that it was in (historical) reality.
More accurately, I want the fantasy game element to roughly match the genre fiction that inspired it in the first place. I can think of plenty of fantasy/historical adventures with guns. I can't think of any that mix fast guns into a generally melee weapon/bow/armor world. (Putting time travel/cross genre stuff, anything where the guns are brought in from elsewhere)
Why is it that only guns merit this extra scrutiny? Why not swords that dull with continued use and need to be cleaned and sharpened regularly, or become blunt instruments? Having a sword that's seen heavy use break at a dramatic moment is a genre trope as well.
It's not written fiction, but plenty of fantasy video games have mixed the two quite effectively. One of my favourite games from the PSX era, Final Fantasy Tactics does so. Knights, Mages, Monks, and Thieves all battle alongside people with guns that can fire without huge delays. Still, the setting works.
To continue the video game tangent for a moment, this is similar to the question "why didn't they just use a Phoenix Down on Aerith?", or the broader question of "why does anyone die in a world where resurrection items are only 200 gold at every item shop?". The answer to that, as well as the answer to why primitive guns in pathfinder can be reloaded at unrealistically fast rates, is game convenience. Just as it's less fun (for many) to play in a game where the death of every one of your characters is permanent, and will eventually end the game or hopelessly doom your party to ultimate failure, having to take a feat, pay thousands of gold, and only get to use something once at the very beginning of a battle is also not much fun. To say nothing of being an entire class based around using something, only to be told it's once a fight. How many players would play wizards if they were only allowed to cast one spell per fight, then expected to draw weapons and charge, or stand around ineffectually doing nothing for a few rounds before they could cast again? (Which shows it's not a matter of balance either, as few would argue that a gunshot is more powerful than casting a spell.)
So, winding up and shooting a heavy crossbow multiple times in 6 seconds is totally reasonable. But reloading a musket style firearm to do the same is massively breaking realism. Makes sense.
Honestly, I've found that most people's problem with gunslingers are either from them attacking touch AC (go check some dpr olympics threads to see how that pans out compared to your average bow user, friends) or because people are stuck with this static idea of fantasy where guns are badwrongfun in your world of magic, dragons, golems, alchemy, etc.
There's massive amounts of realism breaking in the game already. Is a fast loading musket style weapon really that big a deal?
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You folks on the other side of the fence can act like wanting a half-way semi realistic loading time tacked onto firearms is so heinous, and that a fantasy game doesn't have to play by those rules, but the mental image of a guy popping off a musket 40 times a minute is just silly. Realistically we shouldn't expect an early firearms user to be able to attack with their firearm every round...at all, ever. If you really were gunning for a sense of realism gunslinger's would probably focus on doing a completely ludicrous amount of damage...once, maybe twice an encounter, to represent how deadly guns actually are. It'd be a base class focused around going full nova...because, what's impulse control? That actually sounds like a pretty fun class concept, you just run around for a bit, cutting things with your sword, and then eventually when the BBEG pops out of his hidey hole you cap him with your piece for 75% of his health, then stand behind the barbarian, who can do that much damage every round anyway.
But, you know...realism is ultimately overrated, I wanna be an elf and shoot things with my gun, hella times.
Is it more silly than a guy who, because he gets angry, grows horns, can scale sheer cliff faceswith one hand, and can outswim Michael Phelps? Is it more silly than a person punching with as much force as a flintlock pistol? Is it more silly than a little person, born with the power to talk to moles, riding a dog like it's a horse, having a conversation with a bipedal fox that has opposable thumbs and can speak human languages about what kind of ring that grants super powers to wear?
So, winding up and shooting a heavy crossbow multiple times in 6 seconds is totally reasonable. But reloading a musket style firearm to do the same is massively breaking realism. Makes sense.
It's weird, but it makes more sense: you reload your crossbow from the ''top'', and it's easy to think that, with enoug practice and strengh, you can reload it with one hand, without the mechanism to do so. While a musket is muzzle loaded. It requires, at least, to drop your gun to reload it, each time.
You could put some other kind of musket that reload by the back of the gun, like the old Gewher of the Bakumatsu era, but that's a little bit skipping one era...
@Scythia (formatting is hard from my mobile)
Kinda! My brain still finds it really awkward, but I find all kinds of things about PF awkward, so whatever. At the end of the day I think back to Fable 2 and apply the rule of cool.
@Scythia (formatting is hard from my mobile)
Kinda! My brain still finds it really awkward, but I find all kinds of things about PF awkward, so whatever. At the end of the day I think back to Fable 2 and apply the rule of cool.
I'm on my cellphone too, I know what you mean. :P
Yeah, for me it's about what's fun. I live the life of a normal person every day, when I play I enjoy being extraordinary.
I like the idea of having the weapon be fired as a swift action. Then requiring 4 move actions to reload. You can reduce the number of move actions by one with a feat to a minimum of one at a +16 BAB.
This with a combination of magic can increase the # of firearms that can be reloaded at the same time.
You folks on the other side of the fence can act like wanting a half-way semi realistic loading time tacked onto firearms is so heinous, and that a fantasy game doesn't have to play by those rules, but the mental image of a guy popping off a musket 40 times a minute is just silly. Realistically we shouldn't expect an early firearms user to be able to attack with their firearm every round...at all, ever. If you really were gunning for a sense of realism gunslinger's would probably focus on doing a completely ludicrous amount of damage...once, maybe twice an encounter, to represent how deadly guns actually are.
Fun fact. Guns aren't really that powerful relative to other weapons. Human beings are fragile creatures afterall. An actual solid hit from a longsword is likely to dismember a person in short order, while a solid hit from a firearm is going to punch a hole through them. You're probably more likely to survive a bullet wound than you are from a similar hit with a sword or axe.
Yes, you can have glancing and/or light wounds from those weapons, but you can from firearms as well. A mostly deflected sword that grazes your shoulder or thigh is no more likely that a mostly avoided bullet that does the same.
So, winding up and shooting a heavy crossbow multiple times in 6 seconds is totally reasonable. But reloading a musket style firearm to do the same is massively breaking realism. Makes sense.
Honestly, I've found that most people's problem with gunslingers are either from them attacking touch AC (go check some dpr olympics threads to see how that pans out compared to your average bow user, friends) or because people are stuck with this static idea of fantasy where guns are badwrongfun in your world of magic, dragons, golems, alchemy, etc.
There's massive amounts of realism breaking in the game already. Is a fast loading musket style weapon really that big a deal?
Perhaps humorously, my brother who is one of the biggest supporters I know of guns in a fantasy setting; whom insists on most of his characters possessing and using firearms; and who loves mixing up sword and gunplay; is actually one of the biggest proponents for guns you cannot quickly reload.
As a result, in the upcoming HoA Gunslinger v2, there will now be heavy support, both mechanically and stylistically, for single-shot weaponry such as flint/matchlock pistols, rifles, and blunderbuss, which support characters who don't want to be anchored to the full attack, and even means you don't need to carry around tons of magical weapons (though spare guns might be a very good idea).
He is also, oddly, a proponent of misfire mechanics in various conditions because he likes the added complexity and/or immersion it adds for him. As a result, the next version will include misfire rules, but in in the "Hey, your gun sucks and blows up 1/20 shots" misfire rules that Paizo uses. Instead, misfires generally result in either the powder failing to ignite, or in bad cases (such as your character overloading) could result in your gun evolving into a personal detonation device.
@Everyone.
I'm not embellishing the power of the gun without realizing it, my whole point with that little rant was more of a theorycraft of what to do with the gunslinger as a class. I look at all the classes as a mechanical option first and foremost. For example, Barbarians host the physical boost, or super saiyan, mechanic, Alchemists are a toolbox/Aoe devastation mechanic, Wizards let you be Batman, Fighters are strictly a combat toolbox, etc. So I figured the gunslinger could become the "one big hit" class, if that makes sense.
@sowhereaminow, amen. You read my mind.
I dont really see what the abstraction of hit points has to do with anything, even though I 100% agree with you, sir.
IMHO, a good compromise would be requiring a full-round action to reload muzzle-loading firearms, and disallowing any feats that reduce that loading time. It's still fantasy, but takes a (small) step towards a (small) degree of realism. Yes, it would be a house rule, but I don't think it would really break anything or make the gunslinger class intrinsically bad.
Might be a good rule to apply to heavy crossbows as well.
Has anyone done this in their games?
Why is it that only guns merit this extra scrutiny? Why not swords that dull with continued use and need to be cleaned and sharpened regularly, or become blunt instruments? Having a sword that's seen heavy use break at a dramatic moment is a genre trope as well.
Mostly, a matter of degrees and timing. Sword and armor maintenance happens in downtime, in between the action scenes we see/play. Ridiculous reloading speed happens right in the focus of things.
Also, every set of rules for weapon and armor maintenance and condition I've ever played with has been utterly ass-tastic; fiddly, b+**&##$ random, or both at the same time, so I'm willing to give sword sharpening a wide pass to avoid dealing with that.
Is it more silly than a guy who, because he gets angry, grows horns, can scale sheer cliff faces with one hand, and can outswim Michael Phelps? Is it more silly than a person punching with as much force as a flintlock pistol? Is it more silly than a little person, born with the power to talk to moles, riding a dog like it's a horse, having a conversation with a bipedal fox that has opposable thumbs and can speak human languages about what kind of ring that grants super powers to wear?
All of that is standard fare for schlock fantasy. I can visualize all of that, easy. A musketeer lowering his gun, cleaning out the barrel, drawing a paper cartridge, tearing it open and pouring in the contents, tamping it down, raising his gun and firing...in 1.5 seconds or less? Not so much.
"The Patriot" (you know, the Mel Gibson movie) gives a good example or really fast loading times and what a guy needs to do to get around them. In the ambush scene, he's got three or four loaded rifles placed behind various trees, a loaded pistol, and an Indian tomahawk for when he runs out of loaded guns. At various other times in the film, you see guys rushing through the loading routine, and even fast loading by an expert has got to take more than a standard action.
Yes, it's fantasy. But a small compromise towards realism (eg taking a standard action, minimum, to reload) doesn't seem too extreme a move to make, and doesn't seem to invalidate the gunslinger class. A gunslinger can have multiple guns, and non-gun backup weapons, after all.
Although I'll admit that we have yet to go as far as adding any guns at all to our fantasy games, so I don't have experience running this.
I wouldn't mind if guns were cheap enough that you could have bunches of them and quickdraw each instead of reloading. But I'm not against what we have now either.
there are already rules in place for making guns cheeper
"The Patriot" (you know, the Mel Gibson movie) gives a good example or really fast loading times and what a guy needs to do to get around them. In the ambush scene, he's got three or four loaded rifles placed behind various trees, a loaded pistol, and an Indian tomahawk for when he runs out of loaded guns. At various other times in the film, you see guys rushing through the loading routine, and even fast loading by an expert has got to take more than a standard action.
Yes, it's fantasy. But a small compromise towards realism (eg taking a standard action, minimum, to reload) doesn't seem too extreme a move to make, and doesn't seem to invalidate the gunslinger class. A gunslinger can have multiple guns, and non-gun backup weapons, after all.
Although I'll admit that we have yet to go as far as adding any guns at all to our fantasy games, so I don't have experience running this.
it's only a standard action for one handed firearms without any feats and a full-round action for two-handed firearms, with practice(levels) and feats you can make reload times faster
with firearms i think they didn't want to reinvent the wheel so they used the crossbow rules for reload times
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All of that is standard fare for schlock fantasy. I can visualize all of that, easy. A musketeer lowering his gun, cleaning out the barrel, drawing a paper cartridge, tearing it open and pouring in the contents, tamping it down, raising his gun and firing...in 1.5 seconds or less? Not so much.
So, for a heavy crossbow you'd have no problem visualizing a crossbowman dropping down the crossbow, mounting his foot into the stirrup, cranking the string back into a cocked position, bringing the crossbow back to level, drawing a crossbow bolt, sliding it back into the catch, aiming and firing in 1.5 seconds or less? Because both are pretty absurd. But absurdity is standard fare for schlock fantasy.
Yes, it's fantasy. But a small compromise towards realism (eg taking a standard action, minimum, to reload) doesn't seem too extreme a move to make, and doesn't seem to invalidate the gunslinger class. A gunslinger can have multiple guns, and non-gun backup weapons, after all.
As soon as you start wanting to make compromise towards realism, you're stepping out of fantasy. If it's too unrealistic for a Gunslinger to reload a musket as a free action, then it should also be far too unrealistic for Wizards to throw around reality altering power, for clerics to bring back the dead, for monks to do cartwheels down a cliff face, for barbarians to turn into the hulk... Need I go on?
If you can't handle guns and black powder in your fantasy...fine. No big deal. But please, don't try to preach their lack of realism as the reason why. That's simply flawed logic.