Heavy Hitter for a Butterfly Sting partner?


Advice

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Grand Lodge

My wife and I are creating a couple of PFS characters designed to benefit off of Butterfly Sting.

She's going with a fighter for the surplus feats and I haven't decided what I'm making yet.

She'll be taking Weapon Finesse, TWF, Butterfly Sting, Combat Reflexes, and Outflank (probably others, but those are the big ones). (and a keen weapon or..uh..whatever the feat is to improve crit range)

I'll be taking Outflank and Combat Reflexes (those are the ones we're relying on, at least).

I'm thinking a full BaB class would be best so I can get Outflank ASAP (4 bab requirement, so at lvl 4 instead of 6).

a few options I've considered

#1: str based-magus with a dwarven waraxe (d10, x3), which seems like it'd be good (via heirloom weapon trait or from kensai magus--so I could one hand it as an exotic weapon). I could probably do some fun stuff with the extra damage from critting from touch spells. (an aside, do I have this right that I could use spell combat to do a 1h attack and then cast a spell, then double grip the weapon to deliver the spell via a 2h spellstrike?)

#2: Warpriest (probably with an earth breaker because what kind of holy fighter doesn't need a huge bludgeoning weapon?)- this seems like it's an awesome class and I'm excited to try it out. Though, I'm wary about it 'cause it seems very MAD (str, con, dex (for combat reflexes), plus wis AND cha...buh-bye int..). So I'm waiting for the released version, though from the most recent blog about it, it kind of implies they're not changing what abilities it relies on. But it looks like there will be a lot of options to buff myself as a swift action whenever I get the opportunity to crit making my damage even better.

#3: fighter for excess feats and full bab. This one seems the most boring, but will get me to my goal of getting Outflank quicker.

I really don't know what the best weapon to use is.. There seem to be a few good options, but I'm just not familiar enough with PF to know if I'm overlooking something.

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1) You can't use Spell Combat with a 2-handed weapon, even if you release your grip with one hand. But you CAN use Spellstrike that way. You might consider using a tetsubo instead (d10 damage, x4 crit), but it's an exotic weapon. If you use the Kensai archetype, you'd get that for free.

2) Actually, the blog post (or the comments beneath it) revealed that Cha won't be used by the Warpriest. But that won't be the case until the ACG comes out for real, and you may not be able to change your stats to account for it. And there is a deity with tetsubo as a favored weapon... just sayin'.

Grand Lodge

RainyDayNinja wrote:

1) You can't use Spell Combat with a 2-handed weapon, even if you release your grip with one hand. But you CAN use Spellstrike that way. You might consider using a tetsubo instead (d10 damage, x4 crit), but it's an exotic weapon. If you use the Kensai archetype, you'd get that for free.

2) Actually, the blog post (or the comments beneath it) revealed that Cha won't be used by the Warpriest. But that won't be the case until the ACG comes out for real, and you may not be able to change your stats to account for it. And there is a deity with tetsubo as a favored weapon... just sayin'.

1) Dwarven waraxe is 1h exotic weapon. (or 2h martial weapon) I'd take a feat/trait/class ability to use it as a 1h exotic weapon. So unless there's some other caveat I'm missing that should be viable.

2) Awesome! I don't mind waiting til then, I already planned on picking up a copy at gencon ^_^.


You could take a look at the slayer. If you want to flank (outflank sounds like it) you can often deal sneak attack, you got full BAB, can convert many talents to feats and have a lot of skills.

Could be something for your wife, too. The slayer can get TWF without needing the dex prerequisite. So a strength build would be viable. I'd suggest wakizashis for her.

For your weapon a scythe, heavy pick, pickaxe, naginata or tetsubo would be good choices for their x4 crit multiplier.

Shadow Lodge

You might look into something mounted, and use a lance. Her passing off an auto-crit to a charging lance is rather potent.


For you simple is best... Str buid 2 handed weapon. Naginata is good and provides reach, Tetsubo is another solid choice (assuming you do not mind spending 1 feat on Exotic Weapon).

Grand Lodge

Umbranus wrote:

You could take a look at the slayer. If you want to flank (outflank sounds like it) you can often deal sneak attack, you got full BAB, can convert many talents to feats and have a lot of skills.

Could be something for your wife, too. The slayer can get TWF without needing the dex prerequisite. So a strength build would be viable. I'd suggest wakizashis for her.

For your weapon a scythe, heavy pick, pickaxe, naginata or tetsubo would be good choices for their x4 crit multiplier.

Just writing out the math here..

scythe: 2d4, x4 = 8-32 with the most even distribution
heavy pick (pickaxe the same): d6, x4 = 4-24.. meh
naginata: d8, x4 = 4-32, more doable
tetsubo: d10, x4 = 4-40. Yes please.

If warpriest is less MAD than playtest 2, it'll probably be him with a Tetsubo. @RainyDayNinja ..I'm not seeing a god listed in Gods and Magic that has a Tetsubo as a favored weapon, what source is that from?

But the magus at 3d10 + spell crit seems very viable, too..


The heavy pick is one handed. So it has to deal less damage But by going slayer you could benefit from dual wielding because of sneak attack. With a dedicated flanking partner that is.

But all things told you are most likely better off going two handed.

@tetsubo: There is an eastern god with it as favored weapon.Yamatsumi.

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For a butterfly sting user, I'd actually suggest going Ranger. This way you can ignore the dex prereqs for TWF and actually have some Str to back you up, with skill points to boot.

Some creatures are immune to crits, and you want to still be able to contribute if Plan A doesn't work. If you go all into dex with TWF, you'll need to make both weapons +1 agile (rather pricey).

The Exchange

The Butterfly's Sting user would be best as a character who relies on precision damage, as that isn't multiplied on critical hits anyway, so it'll be a lot less painful handing them over. I'd suggest a small-sized Knife Master Rogue TWF with kukri - all the damage is coming from the 1d8 sneak attacks anyway, so why not pass the crit on?

Tetsubo does look the best choice for the partner. Here the reverse is true: you're looking for the best non-precision type bonuses to damage. A Ranger would ultimately get the biggest bonus, I think, by stacking all the favoured enemy bonuses together (and then using that spell to apply them to anyone...). However, for this combo, it sounds like an Order of the Dragon Cavalier would be a good idea: the challenge gives great static bonus to damage, the order adds bonuses to allies to attack the target of the challenge, and the class comes with the tactician ability to expand those teamwork Feats to everyone.


Couple comments on the Magus idea:

You'll only get full value from Outflank if you're holding a charge. This means you'll also very likely be one handing your weapon because you Spell Combatted the previous round and had to one hand it, but whiffed. If you aren't holding a charge, you can forego the AoO and cast normally to deliver the free attack via Spellstrike while two handing your weapon, but you only get 1 attack and will probably have to explain the mechanics to your GM. Also, you're not getting Outflank until level 6 and are kind of feat starved to begin with.

Str Kensai do obscene amounts of damage, but they are exceptionally squishy. If you do go with a Str Kensai, make sure your wife's character is very sturdy because you'll want her to go in a round before you to distract everything while you cast defensive buffs, then move in to attack on the second round.

Butterfly's Sting suggestions in general:

Normally I'd say to go with the Naginata, but if you're using Outflank, you might not want to go with a reach weapon because it can be harder to keep in a flank. Scythe would be my #2 choice.

Damage-wise, weapon damage doesn't matter nearly as much as static bonuses. If you go with a full BAB character, at level 4 you're looking at:
7 (20 Str: 18 + Belt), 6 (-2/+6 Power Attack) 1 (+1 Weapon) = 14*4 = 56 at minimum from static bonuses. Add 4 to that if you take a trait or Arcane Strike, 8 if you're a fighter with Weapon Specialization or Barbarian with Rage, 16 for a challenging Cavalier/Samurai or Smiting Paladin, etc.

So you're probably looking at 60+ damage from static bonuses alone, 80+ if you really push it; The average of 14-20 based on weapon dice isn't that much, and even max weapon damage is going to be less than half of what you end up doing. A CR 6 creature has around 70 hit points, so it's going to be dead whatever the damage dice are. Pick a weapon for x4 crit and whatever other features you want, don't sweat the damage dice.

Classes: Paladin, Cavalier and Samurai are excellent for receiving Butterfly's sting since the enemies you really, really want to kill are the ones you're smiting or Challenging to begin with, and that gets multiplied by crits. Those classes also benefit from Cha and have good face skills for out of combat utility.

I wouldn't worry too much about Combat Reflexes: Even with 5 or 6 attacks a round Butterfly's Sting won't proc more than once a round very often. And with a high Str, x4 crit two handed weapon, you don't need it to proc more than once. An Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier or Samurai gets the free AoO effect for free anyway. Taking AoOs while flat footed or not having to worry about saving your AoOs for Bufferfly's Sting procs is handy, but probably not a huge priority for you.


Either a scythe wielding Two Handed Fighter or Barbarian. That's really all you need.

A tetsubo would work equally well, also.

Basically your goal should be to have a weapon with a big crit multiplier and to stack as much static damage onto every attack you get. To that end, the fighter while the least interesting, is probably the best. The barbarian can achieve almost as much static damage, but will lag behind.

Generally though, for being more well rounded and capable when not getting crits from butterfly sting the barbarian will make a better character.


Thought I would join in, seeing as I'm the "wife" being mentioned.

Akerlof wrote:

Couple comments on the Magus idea:

You'll only get full value from Outflank if you're holding a charge. This means you'll also very likely be one handing your weapon because you Spell Combatted the previous round and had to one hand it, but whiffed. If you aren't holding a charge, you can forego the AoO and cast normally to deliver the free attack via Spellstrike while two handing your weapon, but you only get 1 attack and will probably have to explain the mechanics to your GM. Also, you're not getting Outflank until level 6 and are kind of feat starved to begin with.

There is a lot of discussion about how outflank and butterfly sting work together, but I think we have settled on the following (which makes your point about Magus and AoO moot): If I crit on my turn, I can use butterfly sting to pass my crit to the next ally to hit the enemy (hopefully my husband). But since I passed my crit, that means I didn't actually crit, so no AoO is generated by outflank. The benefit of outflank comes when my husband takes advantage of the crit I passed him. He DOES crit, so I get an AoO because of outflank, and another change to possibly crit/pass. So in general my husband would not be making AoOs, he would be attacking normally. I would be the one making AoOs.

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Another thought for a crit-fishing build: If you play a Battle Oracle, the Weapon Mastery revelation gives you Improved Critical at level 8. But if you play an Aasimar or Elf (maybe one or two other races), you can use the special favored class bonus that boosts your level by 1/2 for the purposes of one revelation. That means you could have Improved Critical at level 6 (and Greater Weapon Focus at level 8, if you kept with it).

This would require spending your first-level feat on Extra Revelation or Martial Weapon Proficiency, but it would be cheaper and faster than buying 2 keen weapons or waiting for Improved Critical as a normal feat.

Scarab Sages

For the Heavy Hitter: Consider a Scythe wielding worshiper of Abadar with Measured Response. Your 2d4 will set to 5 giving you 20 + (static*4), no rolling required.


RainyDayNinja wrote:

Another thought for a crit-fishing build: If you play a Battle Oracle, the Weapon Mastery revelation gives you Improved Critical at level 8. But if you play an Aasimar or Elf (maybe one or two other races), you can use the special favored class bonus that boosts your level by 1/2 for the purposes of one revelation. That means you could have Improved Critical at level 6 (and Greater Weapon Focus at level 8, if you kept with it).

This would require spending your first-level feat on Extra Revelation or Martial Weapon Proficiency, but it would be cheaper and faster than buying 2 keen weapons or waiting for Improved Critical as a normal feat.

I looked into this a bit, but I wouldn't get enough feats to take butterfly sting early on. I really need a class that gives bonus feats to be able to get the correct progression.


AriannaMae wrote:


I looked into this a bit, but I wouldn't get enough feats to take butterfly sting early on. I really need a class that gives bonus feats to be able to get the correct progression.

Even if I repeat myself: Slayer.

You get:
- bonus feats (you can trade some of the slayer talents into bonus feats by taking a ranger combat style).
- precision damage (sneak attack) to make your attacks worthwhile
- A straight bonus to attack and damage (favoured target)
- Full BAB
- Medium Armor prof.
- lots of skills and some other goodies.

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Akerlof wrote:

Couple comments on the Magus idea:

You'll only get full value from Outflank if you're holding a charge. This means you'll also very likely be one handing your weapon because you Spell Combatted the previous round and had to one hand it, but whiffed. If you aren't holding a charge, you can forego the AoO and cast normally to deliver the free attack via Spellstrike while two handing your weapon, but you only get 1 attack and will probably have to explain the mechanics to your GM. Also, you're not getting Outflank until level 6 and are kind of feat starved to begin with.

Str Kensai do obscene amounts of damage, but they are exceptionally squishy. If you do go with a Str Kensai, make sure your wife's character is very sturdy because you'll want her to go in a round before you to distract everything while you cast defensive buffs, then move in to attack on the second round.

Butterfly's Sting suggestions in general:

Normally I'd say to go with the Naginata, but if you're using Outflank, you might not want to go with a reach weapon because it can be harder to keep in a flank. Scythe would be my #2 choice.

Damage-wise, weapon damage doesn't matter nearly as much as static bonuses. If you go with a full BAB character, at level 4 you're looking at:
7 (20 Str: 18 + Belt), 6 (-2/+6 Power Attack) 1 (+1 Weapon) = 14*4 = 56 at minimum from static bonuses. Add 4 to that if you take a trait or Arcane Strike, 8 if you're a fighter with Weapon Specialization or Barbarian with Rage, 16 for a challenging Cavalier/Samurai or Smiting Paladin, etc.

So you're probably looking at 60+ damage from static bonuses alone, 80+ if you really push it; The average of 14-20 based on weapon dice isn't that much, and even max weapon damage is going to be less than half of what you end up doing. A CR 6 creature has around 70 hit points, so it's going to be dead whatever the damage dice are. Pick a weapon for x4 crit and whatever other features you want, don't sweat the damage dice.

Classes: Paladin, Cavalier and...

I'm not really following your logic... why do you need to be holding a charge to make the most of this as a Magus? The next character to hit that enemy gets an auto-crit... as long as your allies don't attack the same ally before your magus does, you're fine. You'd just have to have your characters, in-game, explain their tactics to the other players. "If I yell 'Joren, he's distracted', then don't hit him until Joren does." Then the other players just delay their actions until after the magus. Seems simple enough to me.


claudekennilol wrote:

Just writing out the math here..

scythe: 2d4, x4 = 8-32 with the most even distribution
heavy pick (pickaxe the same): d6, x4 = 4-24.. meh
naginata: d8, x4 = 4-32, more doable
tetsubo: d10, x4 = 4-40. Yes please.

This math just shows the increased damage on the dice. This should be fairly irrelivent considering the STR and PowerAttack bonus you also get. With 18 str using PA and twohander: (+6 Str +6 PA +1 magic) x 4 = 52 each time at level 4. Average damage with Scythe is 72, average damage with Tetsubo 74. Why spend a feat for that? Use the Scythe.

claudekennilol wrote:

If warpriest is less MAD than playtest 2, it'll probably be him with a Tetsubo. @RainyDayNinja ..I'm not seeing a god listed in Gods and Magic that has a Tetsubo as a favored weapon, what source is that from?

But the magus at 3d10 + spell crit seems very viable, too..

Warpriest lost the full BAB progression in that blog post. So make sure you account for that.

Personally I don't think the Magus would be worth it. I think you will be doing plenty without worrying about managing spells.

Grand Lodge

I am currently playing a crit-fisher with my heavy-hitter friend. We decided to go with something a little different. He went Fighter (didn't want to deal with Rage) and is 2-handing a Scythe. I decided to go Swashbuckler for not only reposte (passing a crit when you're attacked is kind of awesome), but also for the free weapon finesse and combat expertise. I don't know if you would get BS faster than a fighter, but I fancy the flavor of the Swashbuckler. Especially when our stories are that we're freed slaves, and I freed him, so he owes me a life debt. Fast talker and a huge bodygaurd :)


ProfPotts wrote:
The Butterfly's Sting user would be best as a character who relies on precision damage, as that isn't multiplied on critical hits anyway, so it'll be a lot less painful handing them over. I'd suggest a small-sized Knife Master Rogue TWF with kukri - all the damage is coming from the 1d8 sneak attacks anyway, so why not pass the crit on?

A TWF Rogue will have problems hitting (and therefore, confirming) even with Outflank.

For the Fisher, how about a TWF Swashbuckler with dual Wakizashis via Half Elf or Tengu? IIRC from the last iteration of the playtest, a TWF Swashbuckler really only loses Precise Strike (which his offhand weapon makes up for). He generates Panache faster than if he used a single weapon, and gets Improved Critical earlier than any other TWF user. He's also somewhat harder to hit than a Rogue.

Grand Lodge

Umbranus wrote:
@tetsubo: There is an eastern god with it as favored weapon.Yamatsumi.

Hmm, I don't know what those domains (or whatever the warpriest ones are called..) do. I was wanting travel and strength/war. I'll have to look into those when the final version comes out.

Slacker2010 wrote:


claudekennilol wrote:
If warpriest is less MAD than playtest 2, it'll probably be him with a Tetsubo. @RainyDayNinja ..I'm not seeing a god listed in Gods and Magic that has a Tetsubo as a favored weapon, what source is that from?
Warpriest lost the full BAB progression in that blog post. So make sure you account for that.

Yeah, I know about the full BaB, but the class looks like it'll be fun enough that I'll probably end up picking it(unless there's something horridly wrong with the final version). I'm not all about min/maxing as long as it's a "good enough" choice.

Umbranus wrote:


Even if I repeat myself: Slayer.
You get:
- bonus feats (you can trade some of the slayer talents into bonus feats by taking a ranger combat style).
- precision damage (sneak attack) to make your attacks worthwhile
- A straight bonus to attack and damage (favoured target)
- Full BAB
- Medium Armor prof.
- lots of skills and some other goodies.

Yeah, we looked into that and it looks like that's what she's gonna do. The only thing she really loses out on is the bonus feat at lvl 1.


cartmanbeck wrote:
I'm not really following your logic... why do you need to be holding a charge to make the most of this as a Magus? The next character to hit that enemy gets an auto-crit... as long as your allies don't attack the same ally before your magus does, you're fine. You'd just have to have your characters, in-game, explain their tactics to the other players. "If I yell 'Joren, he's distracted', then don't hit him until Joren does." Then the other players just delay their actions until after the magus. Seems simple enough to me.

I thought they were using the often overlooked "...In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally," part of Outflank to provoke an AoO by the Big Hitter whenever the Butterfly's Sting/Crit Fisher scored a crit.

If they're just waiting for the Big Hitter's next turn to make an attack, then yeah, that part of what I wrote is irrelevant.

Scarab Sages

Would a swashbuckler gain panache if they give the crit to someone else via butterfly sting? I would think not as your hit is treated as doing normal damage only.

However, This opens an interesting tactic for the heavy hitter: a Qinggong Hungry Ghost monk. You can use a Seven Branched Sword for a weapon, get the 1:3 power attack bonus, and blow through ki like its water thanks to regaining ki on every hit from the transferred crits.

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Note that if the heavy doesn't want to spend a feat, a plain old axe works just fine (x3 crits are generally going to mess up anything).

Kindly note that while you can generate and pass off a crit, you can only do it once per round. They probably wouldn't mind getting crits of their own.

In which case, their weapon should be a falcata (19-20/x3) the best combination of crit threat and crit available. YOu give them a free x3 and they regularly generate their own. Remember that you only give them a crit if you both are attacking the same thing, they still need to think about their OWN damage.

==+Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

Athaleon wrote:
... and gets Improved Critical earlier than any other TWF user.

Thanks Athaleon, I forgot about them getting Improved Critical with Weapon Training. Also, the class does not give you Combat Expertise for free, I was wrong. It does, however, reduce MAD by making Charisma qualify for Combat Expertise instead of Intelligence. And with the recent blog post, they will be getting Dexterity to damage.

So we got:

- Full BAB
- Weapon Finesse for free
- Improved Critical for free
- Easy access to Combat Expertise
- Dexterity to damage
- Bonus Feats
- Riposte

Overall a great option and will be able to dish out a decent amount of non-crit damage at higher levels so passing it off wont be a hard choice!


Xen wrote:


Overall a great option and will be able to dish out a decent amount of non-crit damage at higher levels so passing it off wont be a hard choice!

Also, a large chunk of their damage is precision damage so they don't gain from crits as much as most characters, making it less painful to pass off crits.

Scarab Sages

Akerlof wrote:
Xen wrote:


Overall a great option and will be able to dish out a decent amount of non-crit damage at higher levels so passing it off wont be a hard choice!
Also, a large chunk of their damage is precision damage so they don't gain from crits as much as most characters, making it less painful to pass off crits.

Again, assuming they don't need to regain panache points.


If you're going TWF you're not getting that precision damage. Passing off your crit isn't "painful" at all, precision damage or not, because the whole point of this combo is to make your crits better. The increase from x2 to x4 is already a major improvement, never mind that it's a 2-handed Raging (or whatever) Power Attack versus your own 1-handed non-Raging non-Power Attack.

I'm posting from my phone so I don't have the playtest document handy, but I believe the wording was that you gain Panache "when you confirm the crit". For Butterfly Sting, you are still the one who has to confirm the crit before passing it on, so you would still get the Panache.

If it doesn't work, good catch. You won't be getting many killing blows to fuel Panache with your Heavy Hitter companion. On the other hand, a lot of your deeds are powered simply by keeping a Panache point and not spending it. You can keep it in reserve, only spending it on saving throws, and still be ahead of a Fighter (not that that's saying much).

Grand Lodge

We'll really just have to wait til next month and see what the final version looks like in print. From playtest 2 it looks like str Slayer will work better than Stalker (this is just going from what's printed and not what you guys have said the blog post has said about the final version).


Now that I'm home:

Swashbuckler Playtest wrote:
Each time the swashbuckler confirms a critical hit with a light or one-handed piercing weapon while in combat, she regains 1 panache point.
"Butterfly's Sting wrote:
When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.

It would seem you can have your Panache and Butterfly's Sting too. Unless you interpret "forgo the effect of the critical hit" to mean you don't get your Panache, which I don't.

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the simplest option would be a fighter with the two-hander archetype. they do crazy damage with overhand chop and power attack. take an aasimar or tiefling with +2 Str and you can grab arcane strike (using racial SLA to qualify) to squeeze out some extra damage.

the nice thing about being the big hitter is that you only really need to land 1 hit per round... that gives you a lot of freedom to fool around with 3/4 BAB classes if you want (since you should still be pretty solid with the attack bonus on your first attack). a magus could be fun and add utility; a bard would bring a lot of skills and buffs besides big damage (the bonuses from inspire courage will be nice for both of you, and an aasimar could put FCB into upping that); an inquisitor would be fairly similar to a bard (except that bane damage won't multiply on a crit). a cleric of gorum would be a full 9:9 caster and with the strength[frenzy] and destruction[rage] domains can stack both level 1 smites on a crit for really big damage (on top of divine favor and the like), plus at 8th level you can rage for bonus Str.

those are all pretty simple builds... if you want to shamelessly min/max look at some route to getting at least: 3 levels of 2hand fighter, 1 level of barb, and 1 level of alchemist- stacking rage plus mutagen plus overhand chop will be insane; from 6th level on you could level as any of these (or some combo of barb/alch to keep enough rounds of rage and duration of mutagen).


nate lange wrote:
the simplest option would be a fighter with the two-hander archetype. they do crazy damage with overhand chop and power attack. take an aasimar or tiefling with +2 Str and you can grab arcane strike (using racial SLA to qualify) to squeeze out some extra damage.

An 18 Str, Power attack, and a x4 crit weapon is all you need. Getting overhand chop or Arcane strike is overkill. With the 3 things being all you need, you can use the rest of your feats for fun stuff, utility or defensives.

Grand Lodge

Just about anything with a x4 Critical weapon can work. The whole point is the have the biggest crit damage person use the crit.

A rogue the crit damage is nothing compared to that of a 2 handed user. So basically you will want a class that does very little with a crit to use a high crit weapon. Then you want daddy mack truck to come along and WTF own with his next hit. A few good classes would be:

Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, Ranger and a Warpriest

Other classes work but these classes have some good smack behind them.

Can you imagine the damage from a Smiting Paladin using a x4 weapon hitting a demon for the first hit? Double smite damage tagged along with a crit...OMFG the pain.


Claxon wrote:

Either a scythe wielding Two Handed Fighter or Barbarian. That's really all you need.

A tetsubo would work equally well, also.

Basically your goal should be to have a weapon with a big crit multiplier and to stack as much static damage onto every attack you get. To that end, the fighter while the least interesting, is probably the best. The barbarian can achieve almost as much static damage, but will lag behind.

Generally though, for being more well rounded and capable when not getting crits from butterfly sting the barbarian will make a better character.

This is all you need.Listen to this guy.

Barbarians do insane damage, and if you take other feats to maximize rage length and reduce negative effects of rage, such as "Sundering Strike" (which pairs well with "Destroyer's Blessing"), "Devastating Strike" (must first take "Vital Strike", "Gore Fiend" (need to be orc or half-orc,) or "Bull Rush Strike".

Another good feat to take, if you go half-orc or orc, would be "Ferocious Tenacity" which uses rage points to negate some damage that would otherwise kill you.

"Hammer the Gap" adds damage to each successive attack during a full-round attack. If you score a crit, this additional damage is added to the crit before you multiply the damage.

"Furious Finish" is also a pretty badass damage feat if your wife just scored a crit and you don't think you'll need to rage anymore, or if you're out of rage points.

"Furious Focus" is great because it reduces the penalty from Power Attack.

With all of those talents, and your wife able to tank, you can be her muscle and together would probably end most fights in three rounds or less.

Links to all of the feats:
- Sundering Strike http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sundering-strike-combat
- Destroyer's Blessing http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/destroyer-s-blessing-combat-orc- half-orc
- Devastating Strike http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/devastating-strike-combat
- Vital Strike http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vital-strike-combat---final
- Gore Fiend http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/gore-fiend-combat
- Bull Rush Strike http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bull-rush-strike-combat
- Ferocious Tenacity http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ferocious-tenacity-combat
- Hammer the Gap http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hammer-the-gap-combat
- Furious Finish http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/furious-finish
- Furious Focus http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/furious-focus-combat

Liberty's Edge

Barbarian with a Tetsubo, or Str Magus with a Heavy Pick would be my general recommendations. Both do absurd damage on a crit, and both are fairly good otherwise, too, which is sorta important.


Kensai Magus at lvl 4 gets the ability to spend 2 pool points to increase the crit multiplier by 1. might be something to consider.

Sovereign Court

A naginata-wielding Samurai or heavy pick/scythe-wielding Barbarian could both deal INSANE quantities of damage on a crit. As long as you're building your characters together, though, you should really think about investing in some teamwork feats! Paired Opportunists and Broken Wing Gambit, when paired, are devastating. Check it:

1) You or she hits and activates Broken Wing Gambit.
2) The enemy attacks that person, provoking an AoO from the other.
3) Since you have Paired Opportunists, they provoke an attack from the one with the "broken wing," too!

I would also strongly consider investing in Improved/Greater Trip, and having her stay Fighter or Ranger. Remember, she needs to confirm her crit, even with the penalties from using TWF; she should definitely invest in things like Weapon Focus to improve her chance to hit.

Silver Crusade

A buddy and I have built a Butterfly's Sting combo duo for PFS. He built a hafling Ninja dual-wielding wakizashi, and I am running a Barbarian/Living Monolith with a splash of Metal Oracle for access to Lead Blades.

In the very first scenario we played after he got Outflank and Butterfly's Sting, he passed off his first free crit to an Inquisitor we were playing with, just because I was bleeding out after a crit from a babau. Such betrayal... I'd been saving myself for so long!

Liberty's Edge

AriannaMae wrote:


... takes advantage of the crit I passed him. He DOES crit, so I get an AoO because of outflank, and another change to possibly crit/pass. So in general my husband would not be making AoOs, he would be attacking normally. I would be the one making AoOs.

That is diabolical!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

to add to what i said earlier (and reiterate what others had said)- this really is all about the x4 crit weapon.

a magus really might be an insane option... they get a free EWP so you can take Tetsubo, their reduced BAB will cut into Power Attack damage but the previously mentioned ability to spend 2 arcana to increase to a x5 crit should more that make up for that. you can't use spell combat with a tetsubo but you can use spellstrike, so whenever you get a free crit you can do x2 spell damage and x4-5 weapon crit!

other than that, all the advice i gave before is sound (when combined with a x4 crit weapon, which I assumed you would use but didn't state).

Grand Lodge

I still like a Tetsubo Wielding Paladin taking advantage of the critical passing.

Smite is an awesome ability to be multiplying. And against Dragons, Undead, and Outsiders your going to be hitting so much harder.

Average paladin @ 8th level will be hitting around:
4d10+ 88 on a smited target
4d10+100 on a smited Undead, Dragon, Evil Outsider

That's just with a +2 weapon, power attack, and a +4 natural strength modifier.
Not including other buffs party members and other magic items can give you.

Grand Lodge

Go magus.

Take the trait "magical linage" with "Shocking grasp" as your first choice. Get "empower spell" at 1st your 5th level feat is "intensify spell" memorize all of your 1st level spells as Empowered Shocking grasp until 6th+ then make them intensified your second levels spells can be empowered intensified shocking grasps...

use a Tetsubo to do 4x 1D10+STR + 20D6*1.5 for a second level spell at 10th level


Magus only gets x2 on the spell no matter what. They're also not two handing so they get less from power attack and they have an accuracy penalty and medium BAB so they may not be able to afford to power attack at all.

A cavalier or paladin adds 1/level on a challenge, 3+3/4 levels from power attack, and if he's a gnome 1/5 levels from arcane strike. That's ~16+7.8/level on a scythe crit for a gnome paladin or cavalier with arcane strike compared to ~4+7.8/level for a magus with arcane strike and (intensified) shocking grasp who can't afford to power attack. Thanks to the -2 for spell combat the cavalier has a higher attack bonus and the paladin's is even higher. If you manage to pass a crit for the paladin's first attack against an undead, evil outsider, or chromatic dragon that's another 4/level through the scythe. Once you've got some +str on your belt for either case the 1.5x strength for the gnome outsrips the 1x strength for a human magus. (When the human's at 22 the gnome's at 18 and both get 6 damage from strength.) If you have another way to get an arcane SLA (like aasimar or tiefling) there's no contest.

Grand Lodge

an empowered intensified shocking grasp is 10D6*1.5 critted it is 20D6*1.5

that is an average of about 105 Lightning damage plus your 5x 1D10+Magic +Arcane Strike +Strength damage.. pretty sure you will need but one hit.

I would personally use a Heavy pick (which you can 2 handed) but is a one handed if you want to go Spell combat..

Hold a Rod of maximized spell in your hand and your doing 180 Lightning damage. with your suddenly Maximized, Intensified empowered Shocking grasp critical. (+ x5 weapon damage So 1D6+17 *5 = 82average) or 262 Damage


Atarlost wrote:

Magus only gets x2 on the spell no matter what. They're also not two handing so they get less from power attack and they have an accuracy penalty and medium BAB so they may not be able to afford to power attack at all.

The Magus doesn't have to Spell Combat, he can cast the spell normally (the same as a Cleric with a Longspear or a Wizard with a staff) and then deliver it with Spellstrike via a two-handed weapon. So he doesn't take the -2 attack penalty and gets the 3 for 1 Power Attack bonus. But he's still a 3/4 BAB character, though he is one of those 3/4 BAB characters who does have a good number of things to improve his attack bonus. So a well built Str Magus can drop some massive two handed damage very consistently.

I'm still not totally sure whether or not it will beat out a Smiting Paladin or Challenging Cavalier/Samurai in the long run, but it probably will:

Rough Estimates-
Level 10, both start with 18 Str and boost it as much as possible (+4 belt, +2 from leveling). Both have a +2 weapon to start with, both have power attack, Samurai has Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus, Furious Focus using a Naginata. Magus has Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Empowered Spell, Intensified spell using a Heavy Pick.

The Median CR 13 monster has an AC of 27 and 178 HP.

Samurai: +2 Naginata +28/+23 (1d8+35) x4 = 158 average damage 4 times a day
--Attack: BAB 10, Str +7 (24), Weapon +2, Weapon Focus/Greater +2, Outflank +4, Weapon Expertise +2, Anatomist trait +1, Power Attack -3, Furious Focus +3
--Damage: Weapon +2, Str +10, Power Attack +9, Weapon Specialization +4, Challenge +10

Magus: +5 Heavy Pick +24 (1d6+21 + 15d6) x4 (and x2) = 98 + 30d6 = 203 damage on average, at least 5 times a day (4 level 2 spells, 6 Arcane Pool points from the minimum 12 int to cast 2nd level spells, so enhancing his weapon 5 times and recalling 1 spell.)
-- Attack: BAB 7, Str +7 (24), Weapon + 5 (Arcane pool +3, base +2), Weapon Focus +1, Outflank +4, Power Attack -2, Furious Focus +2
--Damage: Weapon +5, Str +10, Power Attack +6, Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp (Level 2 spell) +15d6

Interesting, the Magus wins significantly, but only after Intensified and Empowered on the Shocking Grasp, just Intensified Shocking Grasps put his damage roughly equal to the Samurai's. He needs to roll a 3 instead of a 2 to hit, though, and he doesn't get an iterative since he wasn't Spell Combatting.

Grand Lodge

Now do the math for the immunities to fire, electric, acid. As well as against Golems that are immune to magic.

What does the damage comparisons look like?


If you aren't using spell combat you are using two rounds to get out an attack so your actual DPR is half what you do in the round you make your attack.

Grand Lodge

Atarlost wrote:
If you aren't using spell combat you are using two rounds to get out an attack so your actual DPR is half what you do in the round you make your attack.

I think you're misunderstanding how spellstrike works. Forgot about spell combat (as in forget about main hand attack, spell off-hand, then deliver spell through another attack).

With just spellstrike, a magus can in a single round (even with a 2h weapon) cast a touch spell, move, then deliver the free touch spell via the free weapon attack (even with a 2h weapon).


Atarlost wrote:
If you aren't using spell combat you are using two rounds to get out an attack so your actual DPR is half what you do in the round you make your attack.

You don't need to use Spell Combat to Spellstrike a single spell any more than a Cleric needs to use Spell Combat to drop a Cause X Wounds or a Wizard needs Spell Combat to drop a Vampiric Touch.

Spell Combat allows you to make your normal full attack and cast a spell at the same time. (Certain restrictions apply.)

Spellstrike allows you to deliver a touch spell through your weapon. No restrictions beyond it being a touch spell on the Magus spell list. Period, dot, end.

Whenever you cast a spell with a range of touch, you get to make a touch attack as a free action during that round to deliver it. It doesn't have to be right away, it just needs to be on your turn during that round.

So, the way a Magus would work with a Butterfly's Sting character would be to fight normally (Spell Combat/Spellstrike Arcane Mark or whatever). Then, when a crit got cast his way, instead of Spell Combatting, he would cast a Shocking Grasp as a standard action, just like any other caster, and deliver the Shocking Grasp as a free action, just like any other caster, but use Spellstrike to deliver it via his weapon, the only special thing about being a Magus in this chain of events, while two handing and Power Attacking with it like a meleer. No Spell Combat, no 1 handed limitation. Basically, he's doing the same thing someone with a Spellstoring weapon would be doing.

A lot of people overlook it, a lot of people confuse it, but Spellstrike doesn't have the limitations Spell Combat has. There are a lot of cases where you want to Spell Combat even if you're holding a charge from the previous round. But the value of Spellstrike without Spell Combat shouldn't be overlooked, especially for a Strength Magus: You can get a lot of mileage out of Spellstrike + two handed Power Attack on a round where you have to move and can't Telekinetic Charge or something else that lets you get a full attack off.

Fruian: The math is right there. The Magus would do about 98 damage without any Shocking Grasp. 60 behind a Samurai and 80 less than needed to one shot a CR 13 monster. Of course, if we're talking about how classes do without their damage booster, the Samurai would do around 118 damage without his challenge. The gap is much smaller when you look at it that way.

So, looking at an actual CR 13 monster, again in the Samurai's favor: How about the Glabrezu. AC 28, 186 HP, Immune to Electricity and Cold, SR 10 on the other elements, DR 10/Good, SR 24.

The Samurai above hits on a 1 for about 148 damage and follows up on hitting on a 5 for about 30. Close enough to killing it for government work.

It's reasonable to think that the Magus a.) made his knowledge check and b.) has a backup beyond Shocking Grasps prepared so he goes with an Intensified Vampiric Touch: 7d6 damage that allows for SR. So he needs to roll a 14 or better to beat the SR. He hits on a 4, or 85% chance of hitting =
-- 55% (65%*85%) chance of doing 98 damage (+5 weapon enhancement overrides DR/alignment, why is this hidden in the Glossary and not in the Damage Reduction section of the Bestiary?)
-- 30% (35%*85%) chance of doing around 147 damage. Not enough to call it a one shot, but putting the enemy below 40HP. The difference in outcome in this case is due to the Samurai having an iterative attack.

So, in the worst case for the Magus, a monster with SR and immune to Electricity, the Samurai comes out a clear winner. Even then, though, the Magus has pretty decent odds of putting the enemy within a hair's breadth of dead, and even if his spell doesn't go off he's taking off over half the enemy's HP and doing only slightly worse than a Fighter or Barbarian would.

If the OP wants to play a Magus, go for it. It's not necessarily the highest possible damage output in every situation, but it's still a very viable option. And you get to roll a ton of dice. ^.^

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