I like the idea behind the post, and it reminds me of your fighter with low charisma that was not bad at diplomacy. I had a feeling his was an MC build though.
Basically as rule of thumb, and this is not just for RD, is that whatever you giving credit to should at least cover more than 50% of the build or be a core of the build, and then you might get credit.
I like the idea behind the post, and it reminds me of your fighter with low charisma that was not bad at diplomacy. I had a feeling his was an MC build though.
Basically as rule of thumb, and this is not just for RD, is that whatever you giving credit to should at least cover more than 50% of the build or be a core of the build, and then you might get credit.
Do you mean Sigfried? :)
I don't particularly mind people saying my character doesn't really support my initial argument. People still understand the point I was trying to make, even if I made an error in judgement in the manner of presentation.
What is beginning to bug me a fair bit are all these people saying that he can't pull his weight in a party, which is blatantly untrue (at least as he is written now, those low-level naysayers made some pretty valid points).
News flash: You don't need to do hundreds of damage to be a valuable member of the party, not even in a combat role. There is a point where much of those extra resources, that focus, starts to go to waste.
Do you mean Sigfried? :)I like the idea behind the post, and it reminds me of your fighter with low charisma that was not bad at diplomacy. I had a feeling his was an MC build though.
Basically as rule of thumb, and this is not just for RD, is that whatever you giving credit to should at least cover more than 50% of the build or be a core of the build, and then you might get credit.
Yeah.
@RD
I don't think people doubt the fighter's damage. They doubt his ability to do anything else, but how true that is depends on how you look it.
It is just like the "well fighters have weak will saves idea". The correct statement is "their" fighters have weak will saves.
1. Are you looking at the fighter's class abilities only?
or
2. Are you looking at what the fighter can do in an actual game?
Personally as long as I know it works in an actual game I am happy. It is like that silly thread that said fighters suck at melee because they don't have natural flight, and therefore can't hit flying creatures. Then the argument changed to well it takes a standard action or whatever else was needed to move the goalpost.
The second one.
I was not asking RD, sorry about that. I was juts making a distinction between the two schools of thought.
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Or...I don't know...the caster removes an enemy from the map. The rogue SA and drops and enemy with the party flanker (lets say cleric) while the cleric removes an enemy with a spell and the fighter drops an enemy all on their own. So while your party took out one guy...mine just cleared the encounter. That is what having a proper damage ratio can let you do. If the enemy is pretty tough, well the rogue and fighter may team up to kill it, leaving the casters to do more useful things then damage to try and remove ONE guy. That is why 75 is insufficent damage for this level. If you can't drop a 200 HP critter with all your hits hitting on your own (a CR 14 mook), you are wasting the action of a partymate to clean up after you. Yes bad dice roll will sometime make you need a second round...but with your model, you can CRIT with ever single attack and still be unable to drop that CR 14 mook. On average you need 3 rounds...my EK needs 2...and 2 rounds = pretty useless. Guess what that makes a 3 round fighter build.Many of you seem to be assuming the fighter will be alone and not with an adventuring party. Provided he has three other characters backing him up carrying their own weight, 75 to 100 damage a round is more than sufficient at all levels.
I really don't believe that's a valid argument since facing MULTIPLE enemies each with hundreds of hit points isn't really a balanced encounter at any level.
Generally, you face one or two tough monsters, or one boss monster and several mooks, not a half dozen...
What the heck are you talking about? Those were 4 CR 14 critters I was talking about. That is 4 CR BELOW your level. You should be able to waste something that weak all on your own. No problem. Not need the entire party to take one down. If you think facing multiple (in this case 4 of them) critter 4 CR below your level is somehow an overpower encounter, then there is definately a difference of what is considered balance between you and what is written in the books as guidelines. Yeah, if YOUR game constant has 80 HP things tossed at you at level 18, your build may seem effective...but that is not what is assumed norm...and I dare say that is not what is considered normal when taking a view of the gaming groups as a whole. There maybe more groups where they are more like your group...but more likely then not, most groups will face multiple CR 14 critters with around 200 HP at level 18, and your expected to deal with those mooks on your own. Hell, even my casual groups can take things 4 CR below their level without having to have the entire group team up...and they take the +2 to two skill feats because it fits their characters for crying out loud.
Also I do believe I had talk with before about badly run encounter is...umm bad right? Using single or even pair of powerful enemies is considered a bad encounter design due to the lack of actions on the baddies part. Having one boss with mooks that are irrelvant is the same as just one bad guy (since you seem to be of the opinion that even 4 CR below level is too much...to get to your ~80 HP, we have to go all the way down to CR 7...which I would dare say is pretty dang irrelvant).
RD consider the following encounter (which has CR = APL +1 meaning its a challenging encounter but very doable)
5 Nalfeshnee (HP 203 DR10/good) (40% chance to summon 1d4 Hezrou HP 145 DR10/good) Assuming all of them use their summon SLA you should get 2d4 Hezrous (average is 5)
Hazrous grapple or spam unholy blight, Nalfeshnee's spam feeblemind on the 1 target till they fail then pick someone else (5 DC20 will saves per round and remember a 1 still fails), you lack a good aligned weapon so your damage per round is 45 (60 with haste) assuming you hit every attack, meaning it takes you 4 rounds to kill a Hezrou or 5 to kill a Nalfeshnee, assuming your entire party has similar damage a party of 5 PC's would be fighting for 9 rounds (assuming the monsters just stood there and let you hit them with full attacks every round without kiting, as they all have ranged SLA's with at will damage).
Encounters vs a single monster of your APL are easy, but solo fights always favor the PCs due to action economy, fights in which you are outnumbered (and yes the creatures will have 150+ hp at level 18) are more common for the majority of us and in those sorts of encounters being able to even the fight by dropping opponents quickly is very important.
However like I said earlier it seems like you play with a different set of assumptions (which is fair enough Pathfinder has a multitude of ways in which you can play it), under my set of assumptions I would not consider your character a front line fighter because his damage is too low meaning we have to survive multiple rounds of save or suck spells till we can kill the casters.
By the time the monster gets those summons off (which isn't likely to succeed even if he isn't interrupted), it's likely already dead. 200 hp? With the party doing ~100 each? Dead in half a round.
DR? Don't make me laugh. By the time you're fighting a nalfeshne the enhancement bonus on your weapon alone should be enough to bypass DR/alignment. If not, then a feat, spell, or magic item will help you get past it (anything from align weapon, to clustered shot, to penetrating strike). By level 13, you are likely well versed in fighting such powerful monsters and have a fair idea of what to expect.
What the heck are you talking about? Those were 4 CR 14 critters I was talking about. That is 4 CR BELOW your level. You should be able to waste something that weak all on your own. No problem. Not need the entire party to take one down. If you think facing multiple (in this case 4 of them) critter 4 CR below your level is somehow an overpower encounter, then there is definately a difference of what is considered balance between you and what is written in the books as guidelines. Yeah, if YOUR game constant has 80 HP things tossed at you at level 18, your build may seem effective...but that is not what is assumed norm...and I dare say that is not what is considered normal when taking a view of the gaming groups as a whole. There maybe more groups where they are more like your group...but more likely then not, most groups will face multiple CR 14 critters with around 200 HP at level 18, and your expected to deal with those mooks on your own. Hell, even my casual groups can take things 4 CR below their level without having to have the entire group team up...and they take the +2 to two skill feats because it fits their characters for crying out loud.
Also I do believe I had talk with before about badly run encounter is...umm bad right? Using single or even pair of powerful enemies is considered a bad encounter design due to the lack of actions on the baddies part. Having one boss with mooks that are irrelvant is the same as just one bad guy (since you seem to be of the opinion that even 4 CR below level is too much...to get to your ~80 HP, we have to go all the way down to CR 7...which I would dare say is pretty dang irrelvant).
Sorry for not being more clear. I was assuming a level 14 party against your proposed challenge, not 18. I imagine getting to around 100 damage a round can be done as early as 10th level, sometimes sooner. The point I'm trying to make is that there is really little need to do better than that, so you might as well diversify your abilities once you're there.
And what does it matter that my 18th-level fighter can't kill them all in one sweep? He doesn't have to. They need a natural 20 to hit him, and he may well negate any crits they are lucky enough to land. He'll either laugh at them as he runs away and saves his resources for bigger fish, or takes his time and kills them all.
Also, it's common knowledge that a swarm of weaker creatures is typically harder, and takes longer to kill, than one big one (unless they are substantially weaker) for a large variety of reasons. That's why mixed CRs is part of standard encounter design.
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Why the hell would you assume level 14 character when we are talking about your level 18 "fighter"?!? Okay great I can't hit YOU...can I tear up the rest of the party while I save you for last? Why yes you say? Or I don't know...spam feeblemind...that nat 1 gotta show up sometime. Yeah your build is very survivable...but utterly useless to the rest of the party as you kinda plink at stuff that is ripping them apart because you can't do your job and do enough damage. I remember this being an issue with your group before.
And nobody is saying that ~100 damage at level 10 is bad. Heck that is probably a bit of an overkill. The mooks at that level will be CR 6...who will be around 80 hp...or hell even less. by level 14, CR 10 mooks will have around 150 HP and your falling behind. By level 18, when the mooks have 200 HP...it is utterly insufficent for a fighter. And that ~100 damage is under the assumption that ALL your attacks hit, the thing your hitting is critable and take bleed damage. Your saying you contribute because you assist in the kill. No, you failed because all you could do is assist in the kill. There was ZERO chance, with all crits and max dice rolled for you to kill that CR 14 critter by your self in one round.
I love how everyone is quick to assume the rest of the party are little more than defenseless ducks lined up in a row, ripe for the killing.
...And also how the enemy is just going to ignore someone doing a hundred damage a round. For most monsters that's half their life. ven the toughest monsters, that is a fifth.
I dunno about you, but I can't imagine a sentient being ignoring anything that can take them out in a matter of seconds, not even something as great as an elder wyrm.
EDIT: More like 3 Nalfeshnes. Sorry, I missed the "5" in your initial post.
So the encounter takes longer. Doesn't sound like it's going to get very difficult for the party regardless.
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I love how everyone is quick to assume the rest of the party are little more than defenseless ducks lined up in a row, ripe for the killing.
...And also how the enemy is just going to ignore someone doing a hundred damage a round. For most monsters that's half their life. ven the toughest monsters, that is a fifth.
I dunno about you, but I can't imagine a sentient being ignoring anything that can take them out in a matter of seconds, not even something as great as an elder wyrm.
EDIT: More like 3 Nalfeshnes. Sorry, I missed the "5" in your initial post.
So the encounter takes longer. Doesn't sound like it's going to get very difficult for the party regardless.
So...everyone has at least 43 AC? And at least a +19 will save? And CMDs in the 40s. I highly doubt that.
And when you are doing a hundred and the other guys is doing a hundred AND CAN BE HIT...what kind of stupid monsters continues to attack the thing that can't be dealt with instead of the one that can? Removing the other 100 damage increases my life span...so ignore you, rip the party apart is the SMART way to do it. I can't imagine a sentient being doing what you described...which is to wail at you instead of the things that can be it can deal with much more easily and hurting just as much. Remember what I said about running an encounter badly is bad? Yeah still bad.
Good points, Caderyn. Still, many classes can do a lot of damage whether or not they get that full attack. Archers, gunslingers, pouncers, spirited chargers, and spellcasters with quickened spells can dish out a whole lot of hurt in those few seconds.
Not so much, Cold Napalm. Sounds to me like many of your monsters are metagamers who magically know EXACTLY who is easy to hit and who isn't before ever making an attack. With most of a character's AC bonuses being invisible effects coming from magical items, I don't see how they could just "eyeball it" like they could with armor and robes at low levels.
At higher levels when you would be fighting these kinds of monsters, getting 40+ AC is EASY for all classes. CMD is pretty easy to get up there too. That's not even accounting for other defenses a given character might have such as Smite Evil, mirror image, and others. Anyone who hasn't covered these weaknesses (such as your aforementioned Will save) likely hasn't survived this far.
In any case, Cold Napalm, what exactly do you get out of saying I'm wrong? Expecting some kind of reward if you "win" the internet debate? You have your beliefs and I have mine. I don't ask that you share them, but I do as that you respect them. If you can't manage that, than you're simply trolling my thread.
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Well lets see, all the monsters attack different characters at round one or two. Hey there is this squishy badly made rogue here who we can hit that does around a 100 damage to us and you. What would I as a smart critter do? Continue to wail on you and wiff or go hit the thing my friend seems quite good an making go squish? Since your group will need, what was it, 4 rounds to clear them, I have time to really mess up your weak links.
Smite evil isn't a defense...unless you go with the school of a good defense is a good offense. Mirror image is good...but that is one round of you not making something go away...and at high levels, it kinda becomes a wasted action as all your images goes boom in a round or two (max) anyways. 40 CMD as a wizard or sorcerer is pretty easy you say? Without a serious gimp to caster abilities? And before you make fun on the will save...YOU didn't make that +19 limit FYI (but close)...and you gimped your damage to useless levels to get that high. Along with the 40+ ac...well I suppose if we give up what we are ACTUALLY suppose to be doing so we don't get hurt, we can reach those limits "pretty easily".
Course that isn't even remotely touching on the issues of your OP. But roberta seems to have done a pretty dang good job of pointing out the silliness of saying a fighter can do more then just fight and using a shadowdancer. The only thing I can really add to that aspect is that agile was not included in UE by the devs. That means your concept of a "fighter" who can do more then fight is based on an enchantment that isn't gonna be allowed in a large number of gaming groups (in fact, most here are run hardback only...but of course you game group allows it...just pointing out using more and more periphery material like this one generally makes you point weaker due to less access).
If you did not want your views discussed, don't post them on a DISCUSSION board. And if all you have left is mah...your a big meanie and a troll...well I suppose this discussion is pretty much at an end anyways so feel free to ignore me all you want. But if you do reply back, I have every right to reply BACK.
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@Ravingdork
to support cold napalm's point, the moment the agile enchantment is rejected, your damage will drop drastically. by at least 7 points per swing. means the monsters have an even easier time ignoring you.
and what do you do when that 75,320 gold piece weapon is stolen or sundered. or what do you do when the big bad monster grapples you. in both situations, you cannot use that fancy sword of yours.
and how did you survive the low levels to even afford that weapon? or did you just magically start high enough level to use it? i doubt you could have bought it without anything short of a commission.
and where did you get that surplus of magic items that seem tailored to your build? an organically produced pathfinder character raised from the low levels upward wouldn't have such a tailor made set of equipment. at least not something so fitting for the build.
this isn't a proper pathfinder character, it's a mary sue with the perfect tailored magical equipment to help outfit and compliment them perfectly, so fitting, that no glove could ever be anywhere near as comfortable.
the gear is just way to tailored to have any sense of organic progression.
oh look, he is even a king, the raven king, how cliche. i have seen over a dozen raven themed characters in the last 2 months. and not just on Paizo.
People get on me for using mary sue traits, but by intentionally studying them and intentionally applying them, i learned to recognize them very well. this character would actually get some decent reviews on fanfiction.net
A fighter certainly can do more than fight. The Pathfinder fighter in particular has better class skills. If I build even a fairly stereotypical big dumb fighter, but put my 2 skill points into Intimidate and Survival, both Fighter class skills, then the fighter can perform a social role (as well as have an attack option in combat that is about inflicting a condition rather than immediately dealing damage, which can come in handy at times), and he can track and help the party survive.
The fighter, depending on fighting style and build concept of course, can also afford to take the occasional non-combat feat, often moreso than other classes, because of their combat bonus feats--they've got wiggle room to take the occasional "concept feat" because they're going to get a ton of combat feats anyway.
The fighter usually can do well by pumping Str and either Dex or Con (making up for whatever deficiency is left with armor/hit points from favored class, etc.), meaning he can probably afford to have at least one okay mental stat, and I prefer to build my own fighters that way as it helps both their usefulness and their survivability.
I don't think DPR is the be all end all, though the fighter is a fun and useful character for building DPR, and I think people who build any character for DPR only must play far more combat heavy games that I do, for someone who did that in our campaigns would be hideously bored. But it is possible to play a fighter in our campaigns and not be hideously bored, so there must be something to it. :)
I do wish the fighter had a few more non-combat options (even if they might be related to tactics or whatnot), but at the same time I am glad there are some archetypes like the cad and the tactician that further do expand the fighter in this way (and without multiclassing or prestiging, just "archetyping").
Plus, even if somehow my fighter doesn't have a huge bag of tricks? Sometimes I just find "I hit it with my sword" terribly satisfying.
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Plus, even if somehow my fighter doesn't have a huge bag of tricks? Sometimes I just find "I hit it with my sword" terribly satisfying.
No. What are you even talking about. Your fun is badwrong. Your "fighter" isn't even a person, he's just some bland faceless substitute for a PC. Obviously you hate roleplaying and are bad at it. You probably have some stupid backstory about how your guy started at first level as some ordinary guard or mercenary or something insipid like that because you don't know how roleplaying works.
To truly make real complex characters with actual depth, you need to have them spontaneously pop into existence as demigodkings with absurdly specialized equipment that could only be obtained by having the party wizard sit at home crafting for years on end. Also you need to ditch the fighter class for a prestige class because otherwise you can't do more than fight. Also, you must never actually play with this character, you must only make posts about them on the internet. Because in the end, that's what true role-playing is all about.
Good points, Caderyn. Still, many classes can do a lot of damage whether or not they get that full attack. Archers, gunslingers, pouncers, spirited chargers, and spellcasters with quickened spells can dish out a whole lot of hurt in those few seconds.
Not so much, Cold Napalm. Sounds to me like many of your monsters are metagamers who magically know EXACTLY who is easy to hit and who isn't before ever making an attack. With most of a character's AC bonuses being invisible effects coming from magical items, I don't see how they could just "eyeball it" like they could with armor and robes at low levels.
RD, it is just like in a monk thread I was in.
Here is how it works. The monster tries to hit the monk but the can, but the monk is not really hurting the monster either. Other party members have shown themselves to be dangerous to the best thing to do is kill everyone else, and come back to the monk.
The monster does not have to know the monk's AC. He knows his attacks are being dodged. I don't know if you watch MMA or anything, but in the last UFC event Anderson Silva backed himself up against the cage, which is a bad idea. However he is so much better than the other guy he did it anyway. The guy would come in swinging, and he would just move out of the way. Anyone watching that fight knew Silva was very unlikely to get hit or take a serious blow.
The same logic applies in fantasy land. Nobody knows what AC is, but they know when someone is good at not being hit.
I love how everyone is quick to assume the rest of the party are little more than defenseless ducks lined up in a row, ripe for the killing.
...And also how the enemy is just going to ignore someone doing a hundred damage a round. For most monsters that's half their life. ven the toughest monsters, that is a fifth.
I dunno about you, but I can't imagine a sentient being ignoring anything that can take them out in a matter of seconds, not even something as great as an elder wyrm.
EDIT: More like 3 Nalfeshnes. Sorry, I missed the "5" in your initial post.
So the encounter takes longer. Doesn't sound like it's going to get very difficult for the party regardless.
People's problems with your post:
RD your fighter is not doing fighter stuff which is killing things. If you fighter did his primary job, and did the other stuff that would be different. It is basically like saying casters can fighter because you have 5 levels of sorcerer, and 13 levels of paladins. The paladin not the sorcerer is the reason for the fighting.If you are going to saying X can do more than ______ then ____ will still be expected. I have not run any numbers, but if they(other posters) are correct then the character has the title of fighter, but having a title and owning up to a position are not the same thing. They feel like the position is not being fulfilled.
I only just realized you don't get Weapon Finesse until Shadowdancer 3, so even when you can afford Agile, you can't actually use it properly because you're still using your Strength modifier to hit. So your period of low-level uselessness is even longer; it actually starts seriously eating up the mid-levels as well.
Plus, even if somehow my fighter doesn't have a huge bag of tricks? Sometimes I just find "I hit it with my sword" terribly satisfying.No. What are you even talking about. Your fun is badwrong. Your "fighter" isn't even a person, he's just some bland faceless substitute for a PC. Obviously you hate roleplaying and are bad at it. You probably have some stupid backstory about how your guy started at first level as some ordinary guard or mercenary or something insipid like that because you don't know how roleplaying works.
To truly make real complex characters with actual depth, you need to have them spontaneously pop into existence as demigodkings with absurdly specialized equipment that could only be obtained by having the party wizard sit at home crafting for years on end. Also you need to ditch the fighter class for a prestige class because otherwise you can't do more than fight. Also, you must never actually play with this character, you must only make posts about them on the internet. Because in the end, that's what true role-playing is all about.
a Demigod King that can be easily usurped. what a complete joke? a well prepared 11th level wizard can bind something that deals far more damage than this King. yeah, might not last as long, but it deals damage and happens to be quite expendable.
Edit; i need help finding worthwhile damage focused outsider with 12 or less hit dice. the PRD isn't giving much room to search with.
Edit2; a CR11 Asura is a better tank than you. and it has 4 less HD and a lot less equipment.
Edit3; Said Asura is swinging at +24/24/19/19/14/14 for 1d6+20 with a 15-20 crit range with a 7th attack at +17 for 2d8+10. each of which with a chance of delivering an injury poison.
He's a good fighter. He's not the best by a long shot, but in a typical party setup, he kills things just fine. Most of you have become so used to the high damage fighter builds that you fail to realize (or at least acknowledge) that ~100 damage per round is perfectly adequate at ALL levels. No one has yet to prove otherwise (at least not with remotely balanced encounters).
Someone pointed out the severe drawbacks of him losing his sword. That's a fair point, one that I had not considered. Luckily, he does have some defense against that happening thanks to his high perception (against thieves) and his gloves of dueling (against disarm/sunder). Sure, it being lost will always be a crippling posibility, but the same could be said for a wizard and his spellbook or a witch and her familiar or, even, another fighter (such as an archer or reach-weapon fighter) and his primary weapon. Take those away and half (or more) of their feats and abilities becomes completely useless.
I'm surprised to see so many people complaining about the tailored equipment. He's a KING. With the Leadership feat and a dedicated crafter cohort what's more. He's MEANT to have tailored equipment. It would be a really weird King who didn't have exactly what he wanted. In a traditional party, there is generally an item crafter so tailored-to-the-party items are hardly uncommon.
Nekogami: As with most monsters with CRs equal to or below RK's level, the asura needs a natural 20 to hit RK, and RK has a 50% of completely negating any critical hit made against him. What's more, he has no means of bypassing RK's DR. In the meantime, RK is regularly hitting, bleeding, and blinding said CR 11 asura (which would last approximately 2 rounds in a one on one confrontation). Not even the asura's high grapple modifiers can avail him as RK can easily slip out of it with his supernatural abilities. The encounter either ends with the RK as the clear victor, or with the asura retreating via teleport. Either way, more XP. :)
And that's not even accounting for having a party, a cohort, and four halfway decent followers.
She's not referring to how the Asura can beat you but how he can do your proposed job better than you.
I love the "He's a King!" argument. Even though this character couldn't ascend to kinghood from his own work at lower levels (because this character is pretty much worthless at lower levels) and didn't become king by anything roleplayed out at any table (because this is just a build posted on the internet and yet apparently is criticizing other people for being blocks of numbers instead of personalities).
Also, nice job using Leadership, the single most commonly banned and most overpowered feat in the entire game, as a crutch.
So, RD, why is facing a CR18 encounter "not even remotely balanced" for an 18th-level party?
Also, even the 75 DPR was assuming all attacks hit for max damage. But that third iterative of yours isn't even hitting on an 11 against CR18 opponents, much against less higher-CR foes.
How a Critter tells if he fail because a bad roll or a because the target have very good defense?
lets say the monster attack the squishy wizard and rolls 2 and fail, will he stop attking the wizard because obviously he can not hit him?
Usually, you can feel how well you're doing; it's not hard to tell whether you just screwed up or whether you did well but it just wasn't enough.
Remember that players can see their own attack rolls, so they have that information available. No reason to deny equivalent knowledge to monsters.
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Well lets see, all the monsters attack different characters at round one or two. Hey there is this squishy badly made rogue here who we can hit that does around a 100 damage to us and you. What would I as a smart critter do? Continue to wail on you and wiff or go hit the thing my friend seems quite good an making go squish? Since your group will need, what was it, 4 rounds to clear them, I have time to really mess up your weak links.
How a Critter tells if he fail because a bad roll or a because the target have very good defense?
lets say the monster attack the squishy wizard and rolls 2 and fail, will he stop attking the wizard because obviously he can not hit him?
Can you tell when you just suck at darts or when the dart board is deftly moving out of the way*? Or when you play a shooter the difference between the other guy getting lucky and you just being outclassed? I can tell pretty well.
damn mimics
...this character couldn't ascend to kinghood from his own work at lower levels...
Many published NPC kings are strictly inferior in their stats. Yet they are still kings. Take a look at the standard king from the GameMastery Guide for example. If he can become a king, so can RK.
Also, no one said he managed it at level 3, 5, or even 10 (though he could have managed at level one, as crappy as you claim him to be, simply by virtue of royal birth).
Also, nice job using Leadership, the single most commonly banned and most overpowered feat in the entire game, as a crutch.
I'm using published rules in the manner that they were intended. Peoples' house rules have no bearing on any of the points I've made. If we had to always account for factors outside of the game and its rules, anything remotely resembling a discussion would be absolutely impossible.
So, RD, why is facing a CR18 encounter "not even remotely balanced" for an 18th-level party?
I never as much. King and an otherwise standard party smashes all encounters so far proposed quite easily.
People are just upset that King can't do it all by his lonesome in one round for some reason. The game doesn't expect you to be able to do that. Those are highly focused power builds, which this is not.
I think people just want to attack it because of how much joy and enthusiasm I put into showing it off. Envy perhaps? A character doesn't need to be a focused power build to be a lot of fun to play.
Also, even the 75 DPR was assuming all attacks hit for max damage. But that third iterative of yours isn't even hitting on an 11 against CR18 opponents, much against less higher-CR foes.
A typical CR 18 creature has an AC of 33. That means RK lands each iterative attack 95%/75%/50% of the time. He deals an average of 22.5 per hit. That equates to an average of 21.375/16.125/11.25, or 48.75 damage per round. It may not look like much, but this is only a highly conservative estimate, as it does not account for critical hits, bleed damage, higher attack rolls for flanking with allies/summons and good used of other tactics, attacks of opportunity, debuffs against enemy AC (such as blinding them), etc. These things will ensure a much higher damage output than everyone here seems to be thinking.
It may not look like much, but this is only a highly conservative estimate, as it does not account for critical hits, bleed damage, higher attack rolls for flanking with allies/summons and good used of other tactics, attacks of opportunity, debuffs against enemy AC...
At the same time the characters who do get higher damage do even more damage.
The thing is RD. For all the neat things this guy can do I'll bet you a dollar I can do more with a single classed fighter.
The thing is RD. For all the neat things this guy can do I'll bet you a dollar I can do more with a single classed fighter.
I would like to see that. It would serve to prove my point in the OP better than Revin Bitter did.
I have no doubt your straight fighter will be better at combat, but I'm doubting you could do as much or more out of combat, and do it as well or better, than Bitter. Though I absolutely believe that fighters can be much more than people generally expect outside of combat, even I recognize the value of multiclassing.
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He's a good fighter. He's not the best by a long shot, but in a typical party setup, he kills things just fine. Most of you have become so used to the high damage fighter builds that you fail to realize (or at least acknowledge) that ~100 damage per round is perfectly adequate at ALL levels. No one has yet to prove otherwise (at least not with remotely balanced encounters).
No...he works fine for YOUR group. There is a BIG difference between it works in your group and it works in general. You seem unaware of this little difference. What is adequate for your game may not be(and from the reply your getting, probablity of it being not is pretty dang high) for most of the games out there. You can say look, this is an awesome character I have for my game and having a lot of fun with...but that isn't what you are saying. You are saying that doing piddle damage while being very hard to hurt is a viable tactic as a fighter role (because you are still not a fighter) in most games. Well too bad, we do not agree with you.
No...he works fine for YOUR group. There is a BIG difference between it works in your group and it works in general. You seem unaware of this little difference. What is adequate for your game may not be(and from the reply your getting, probablity of it being not is pretty dang high) for most of the games out there. You can say look, this is an awesome character I have for my game and having a lot of fun with...but that isn't what you are saying. You are saying that doing piddle damage while being very hard to hurt is a viable tactic as a fighter role (because you are still not a fighter) in most games. Well too bad, we do not agree with you.He's a good fighter. He's not the best by a long shot, but in a typical party setup, he kills things just fine. Most of you have become so used to the high damage fighter builds that you fail to realize (or at least acknowledge) that ~100 damage per round is perfectly adequate at ALL levels. No one has yet to prove otherwise (at least not with remotely balanced encounters).
I'm using mathematics (DPR/round) and the game's rules (such as CR and monster creation guidelines) to back up my claims. If someone's game deviates from those norms, why should I care when making an argument BASED ON THE GAME'S OWN EXPECTATIONS?
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The thing is RD. For all the neat things this guy can do I'll bet you a dollar I can do more with a single classed fighter.I would like to see that. It would serve to prove my point in the OP better than Revin Bitter did.
I have no doubt your straight fighter will be better at combat, but I'm doubting you could do as much or more out of combat, and do it as well or better, than Bitter. Though I absolutely believe that fighters can be much more than people generally expect outside of combat, even I recognize the value of multiclassing.
Cha 14+6(item), skill focus UMD, max ranks UMD, magical appitude, dangerously curious trait = +35 to UMD. I can use any scroll I damn well please. There, more tricks then you. And I can still dish out 200 damage a round to something 4 CR lower then my level.
Cha 14+6(item), skill focus UMD, max ranks UMD, magical appitude, dangerously curious trait = +35 to UMD. I can use any scroll I damn well please. There, more tricks then you. And I can still dish out 200 damage a round to something 4 CR lower then my level.
That reminds me of how many posters incorrectly assume a wizard is always prepared for absolutely everything.
There are a host of problems with relying on UMD. Scrolls and similar items can get prohibitively expensive, aren't that effective unless you boost their caster level, aren't always available for purchase, etc.
Spending the feats, skills, traits, and most of all, money, means the fighter is coming up short somewhere else (though I admit, they do have plenty of room for that kind of thing). You're correct that it does boost his versatility quite a bit, though I'm hesitant to agree that it makes him MORE versatile than RK. I'll have to think on it a bit more.
What kind of scrolls/items would you have on hand for such a fighter, Cold Napalm?
The thing is RD. For all the neat things this guy can do I'll bet you a dollar I can do more with a single classed fighter.I would like to see that. It would serve to prove my point in the OP better than Revin Bitter did.
I have no doubt your straight fighter will be better at combat, but I'm doubting you could do as much or more out of combat, and do it as well or better, than Bitter. Though I absolutely believe that fighters can be much more than people generally expect outside of combat, even I recognize the value of multiclassing.
Gauntlet Status: Thrown.
Now let's see what method you used to generate stats.
I use 25 point buy, 75% of the maximum variable hit points, standard starting funds, and all sources published by Paizo for the Pathfinder Roleplaying game.
He's a good fighter. He's not the best by a long shot, but in a typical party setup, he kills things just fine. Most of you have become so used to the high damage fighter builds that you fail to realize (or at least acknowledge) that ~100 damage per round is perfectly adequate at ALL levels. No one has yet to prove otherwise (at least not with remotely balanced encounters).
IIRC someone said you were doing about 75 DPR. I did not run the numbers. Do you dispute the claim? If so I can run the numbers since I am curious, about the damage aspect. I was trying to be lazy, and hope someone else would run them though. :)
RD it is better to use 20PB when presenting a build to the boards. That is because that is what is normally used when showcasing a build. Average hit points are also what is normally used.
I am not taking sides just informing you of how things are normally done. No you don't have to do things that way, but if you step outside of the unwritten rules it is a waste of time to post since people are less likely to take the build seriously.
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I'm using mathematics (DPR/round) and the game's rules (such as CR and monster creation guidelines) to back up my claims. If someone's game deviates from those norms, why should I care when making an argument BASED ON THE GAME'S OWN EXPECTATIONS?No...he works fine for YOUR group. There is a BIG difference between it works in your group and it works in general. You seem unaware of this little difference. What is adequate for your game may not be(and from the reply your getting, probablity of it being not is pretty dang high) for most of the games out there. You can say look, this is an awesome character I have for my game and having a lot of fun with...but that isn't what you are saying. You are saying that doing piddle damage while being very hard to hurt is a viable tactic as a fighter role (because you are still not a fighter) in most games. Well too bad, we do not agree with you.He's a good fighter. He's not the best by a long shot, but in a typical party setup, he kills things just fine. Most of you have become so used to the high damage fighter builds that you fail to realize (or at least acknowledge) that ~100 damage per round is perfectly adequate at ALL levels. No one has yet to prove otherwise (at least not with remotely balanced encounters).
One...nobody uses the "norm"...not even APs. Two...no you are NOT. If you are going by that, you can't even reasonable kill a CR 14 critter before it got 5 FM attempts off on you. A CR 18 blue dragon would enervate you 7 times for an average of ~17 levels...also known as death for you. Even if you had a party of characters designed like you, you would need a 12 or better for your first hit (AC 37, +4 armor spell, +4 shield spell...there is absolutely NO reason why an ancient dragon would not have these two spells up when you encounter one...most likely it will have other spells up as well). You WILL not get a full attack on a dragon if it is played right...so you do your average 16 DPR along with your 4 party mates. That is 6 rounds on an ENTIRE party built on your principle to take it down IF none of you get weakened. Also if it has false life up, that is another round you will need...remember how one of you pretty much dies at round 7? And then of course it has mislead to extend the number of rounds it can dick with you for. That is a easy peasey 1 critter AT APL encounter. One of the EASIEST encounter to win. Lets see what happnes when we have TWO of them...an APL+2. Now you need 12-14 rounds...with nothing bad happening to you. By round 4 one of you is dead. By round 8 so if the second one. No more enervate however so I use my other spells (VT would work well I think...gain some THP to extend my rounds) and 4 round later third one is dead...and because you lost party members starting at round 4, it's a TPK...for a measely badly done APL +2. Now I am sure you will point out your parties tend to have other classes and builds...well in that case, why sould I worry about somebody doing a piddly 16 DPR when I can rip those casters apart first and then the squishy rogue and then YOU. That is why the monk is considered a bad class and why your build in general is considered bad as well.
IIRC someone said you were doing about 75 DPR. I did not run the numbers. Do you dispute the claim? If so I can run the numbers since I am curious, about the damage aspect. I was trying to be lazy, and hope someone else would run them though. :)
Alright, here are the numbers:
Against a target with AC 33, no DR you can't bypass, and no immunity to crits or bleeds, you're dealing an average of 66.3 damage, plus 5.46 bleed damage, when you make a full attack. The CR guidelines say a CR18 opponent has about 300 HP, so on average you can just barely kill them in four rounds (but four identical copies of you could not kill them in one round on average, since four rounds of time actually passing is needed for bleed damage from round 1 to take effect in order for your four full-attacks to kill them).
Of course, that's assuming a completely generic CR18 target that has no special abilities and nothing beyond the CR chart's basic statistics. In actual high-level play, you're facing stronger opponents than that.
But let's assume you have Haste (and pretend the wizard with 9th-level spells has nothing better to do than cast it). Now you're able to do 97.425 damage per round on a full-attack against 33 AC, plus 7.56 Bleed damage. Now it's only taking you three rounds of full-attacks, with arcane caster support, to take out a CR-equivalent foe.
Of course, you've also given yourself 25PB and above-average HP, so I don't know why you're only fighting CR=APL opponents. Especially for high-level play where the CR system is already breaking down anyhow.
I have the DPR at 69.64 vs if you use the monster creation chart, which does not include any special abilities a monster may have.
A monster of that level is expected to force save of about 25
RD'd character has saves of Fort +19, Ref +22, Will +17; +3 vs. fear
That gives him very good chances versus an APL=CR opponent for saves.
His AC is 47. A CR 18 monster has an attack bonus of about +28 if it is melee based, and not buffed.
Against the Daemon, Purrodaemon the DPR is 64.13. The monster is also hard pressed to hurt RD's character. With Int 17, Wis 18, it has no reason to waste its time on him. It's best options are to kill someone else first or teleport away.
Against a Very Old Red Dragon the DPR is 64.13, and 47.42 after shield is cast. The dragon can also cast dispel magic, and if it is successful the DPR drops down to 15.81.
With a CMB of +40 using combat maneuvers is also an option. It is not likely to fail.
Silver Dragon, Very Old had divine favor, which means it can boost its ability to attack so that it only needs an 11 to hit RD's character, and it also has the shield spell, and CMB numbers similar to a CR 18 red dragon.
A Nightshade, Nightcrawler has a +41 to its grapple check. RD's character has a CMB of +17. Unless party members save him he will die. The same goes for the other monster's high CMD's. The energy drains are not fun.
A Qlippoth, Thulgant need a nat 20 to hit RD, and is better off running away. It would most likely loose the fight even in a one on one fight.
Conclusion: The character will struggle to be contribute meaningfully in a boss(which would be a APL+3 at least) fight. With sub 70 DPR at level 18 it is might not qualify as a secondline combatant in many groups.
PS:Those 3 extra points of DPR won't matter that much so I don't think it matters which one of us is correct. In any event it is not 100.
PS2:The silver dragon can cure itself. I don't know about the other monsters. I did not catch the bleed until after I closed the tabs out.
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Cha 14+6(item), skill focus UMD, max ranks UMD, magical appitude, dangerously curious trait = +35 to UMD. I can use any scroll I damn well please. There, more tricks then you. And I can still dish out 200 damage a round to something 4 CR lower then my level.That reminds me of how many posters incorrectly assume a wizard is always prepared for absolutely everything.
There are a host of problems with relying on UMD. Scrolls and similar items can get prohibitively expensive, aren't that effective unless you boost their caster level, aren't always available for purchase, etc.
Spending the feats, skills, traits, and most of all, money, means the fighter is coming up short somewhere else (though I admit, they do have plenty of room for that kind of thing). You're correct that it does boost his versatility quite a bit, though I'm hesitant to agree that it makes him MORE versatile than RK. I'll have to think on it a bit more.
What kind of scrolls/items would you have on hand for such a fighter, Cold Napalm?
Stuff you can wand...or scroll
DD, invis, greater invis, divine favor, divine power, wind wall, various fog spells, sleet storm, darkness, detect spells, see invis, darkvision, remove fear, shield others, silence, alter self, spider climb, fly, magic circle, tiny hut, lower pit spells (yes they will make the save...doesn;t help them if you bullrush them in), various bonus to skill spells...scroll of these are pretty cheap and easy to keep a stash of 20 or more of at level 18...and hell some of these should be wands of and some of then you probably only want a few at a time.Stuff you can just scroll...these can get pricey, but you certainly can have small stacks of these
Giant form 1 and 2, Undead anatomy 3 and 4, Greater planar ally (and binding), heal, raise dead, reverse gravity, Wall of stone, hungry pit, move earth, maze, Prismatic wall and sphere
With all of that aside my monsters unless they are stupid don't let people get full attacks on them. They will trip, and disarm using reach to keep you away or fly. They might grapple you after disarming you to make sure you can't get you weapon back if possible. Yeah you might have a backup, but it won't be as good as the primary weapon, and if it is not a +5 it may not bypass DR.