The Kensai, for example, can always act in a surprise round at level 13, whereas at level 19 they are never surprised.
The only difference I can imagine there being is that if you are "never surprised", then you wouldn't start a battle flat-footed, even if you haven't acted. Does that seem like a reasonable interpretation? If not, what difference is there between the two?
The Kensai, for example, can always act in a surprise round at level 13, whereas at level 19 they are never surprised.
The only difference I can imagine there being is that if you are "never surprised", then you wouldn't start a battle flat-footed, even if you haven't acted. Does that seem like a reasonable interpretation? If not, what difference is there between the two?
There isn't any... the difference is in what you left out... in that at 19th level, the Kensai no longer rolls for initiative, because it's always assumed to be a 20.
There isn't any... the difference is in what you left out... in that at 19th level, the Kensai no longer rolls for initiative, because it's always assumed to be a 20.
So you believe the text "and he is never surprised" is completely superfluous to the ability?
I'm not sure what the Kensai's not-rolling-initiative ability actually means to this conversation. He can still be out-initiatived by someone with a higher modifier (unlikely, I'm sure, but possible).
There isn't any... the difference is in what you left out... in that at 19th level, the Kensai no longer rolls for initiative, because it's always assumed to be a 20.
So you believe the text "and he is never surprised" is completely superfluous to the ability?
It's flavor text to introduce the meat of the ability. The kensai is effectively never surprised because he can act in the surprise round and his initative die roll is now automatically 20. You really can't get better than that. Especially since on top of what is no doubt a good dexterity, possibly the Improved Initiative feat, the Kenasi is applying his Intelligence modifier as well.
You don't just consider the ability on it's own... it's everything that came before it that adds up.
He can still be out-initiatived by someone with a higher modifier (unlikely, I'm sure, but possible).
A kensai, a shohei, and a diviner walk into the bar .....
The kensai orders a drink. "Make it quick!"
The sohei orders a drink. "Make mine before the kensai's!"
The kensai responds, "No, make mine before the sohei's!"
The bartender looks over the two bickering about whose drink comes first, and says, "What is with you two? You're still both getting your drinks before the orcs. Do you really have to try to beat each other?"
The diviner picks up the drink he ordered five minutes ago. "I'm not surprised."
The Sohei and the Diviner are the same, in the sense that they both add half of their class level to initiative, and they get an automatic "20" at level 20.
The Kensai, instead, can add both his INT and DEX bonuses (at level 7), as well as getting the automatic "20" at 19.
At level 7, Sohei and Diviner are adding +3, and the Kensai is adding +INT, which is likely to be more than +3, but not by much. As they gain in levels, +1/2 class level will likely surpass the INT bonus of the Kensai. However, this is likely more than balanced out by a DEX-based Kensai.
At level 19, the Kensai takes the commanding lead again, since he gets the "automatic 20" a level earlier.
At level 20, they all get the automatic 20.
Overall, I think the DEX-based Kensai is the leader for initiative, but not by much.
Now, on topic, LazarX, I think the ability would have said something like "so he is never surprised", rather than "and he is never surprised", if it was meant to be interpreted the way you are saying. Given the wording, I have to believe the writer intended "he is never surprised" to be a meaningful statement. So, I think I'll stick with my original interpretation.
That being said, it's only a meaningful distinction if someone actually beats the Kensai in initiative order, which is not likely to happen very often.
True, but it still makes the joke in this case. I just see so many people of the Cult of Must-Go-First do everything possible to not only beat the enemy in initiative, but the other PCs as well. All about going first, nothing about strategy or survival of the first salvo. You know, the folks that would Refocus in 3.0.
The Kensai, for example, can always act in a surprise round at level 13, whereas at level 19 they are never surprised.
The only difference I can imagine there being is that if you are "never surprised", then you wouldn't start a battle flat-footed, even if you haven't acted. Does that seem like a reasonable interpretation? If not, what difference is there between the two?
1. Being "surprised" and being caught "flat-footed" have nothing to do with each other directly. "Surprise" is about who perceives who first. FF'd is a function of whether you have acted, whether you are doing something that makes you flat-footed e.g. climbing a rope, or whether the enemy can effect some ability to make you flat-footed.
2. There is no listed ability in the Kensai archetype that prevents one from being flat-footed. In fact, the Iaijutsu Focus explicitly states the Kensai is FF'd until he acts.
3. Iaijutsu Master does not explicitly change anything with regard to being FF'd. It says that you are never surprised and that you start Init with a natural 20.
4. If we are to interpret "never surprised" into something mechanical, it would mean that you always get to act in the Surprise round if there is one. The level 13 power already grants that ability. So the value of "never surprised" text is just a catch all for non-initiative situations.
5. To repeat above, neither ability explicitly precludes the Kensai from being caught flat-footed. If IM meant to remove the flat-footed condition, the developers would have explicitly stated it like they did with Uncanny Dodge.
6. It's possible to argue that IM is supposed to keep a Kensai from being flat-footed when it comes to the Surprise/first round in combat. If so, that' s not obvious and I would not allow it as a GM without an errata/FAQ to clarify that.
N N 959, you may be right per RAW, but I was looking more for a general RAI impression, and I believe I have the correct of it per RAI. The only reason a character is flat-footed before they act, logically speaking, is because they are surprised by the initialization of combat.
I do *not* think that the ability is granting Uncanny Dodge; for example, I don't think it works against invisible attackers, nor protects against any other effects that explicitly make you flat-footed. I think it's just meant to prevent flat-footedness with regard to the beginning of combat.
I *do* appreciate the RAW analysis that you did, but I was mainly looking to see if my interpretation was a reasonable one; Umbranus and Zhayne confirmed for me that it is. I would be the GM in the game in question.
I would say that Iaijutsu Focus lets you act in the surprise round, even if you would otherwise be surprised (usually by failing a Perception check to notice the enemy). You're still flat-footed before you act.
I think the intent of the "and he is never surprised" language in Iaijutsu Master is that not only can you act in the surprise round, you are not considered flat-footed before you act because you aren't an unaware combatant.
PRD on Surprise:
Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
N N 959, you may be right per RAW, but I was looking more for a general RAI impression, and I believe I have the correct of it per RAI.
I disagree. If the developers meant for your interpretation to be correct, they could have easily stated, "A Kensai is never caught flat-footed to begin combat." They did not write this. In addition, because the level 13 power explicitly states that the Kensai is flat-footed at the start of combat, the fact that the developers did nothing to explicitly change this fact is strong evidence that your RAI is completely wrong. To put it another way, the developers use the term "flat-footed" with the level 13 power and nowhere do they mention that word again.
Assuming they meant to remove the state of being "flat-footed" without specifically mentioning it is not a reasonable assumption. The person or persons who sat down to write Iaijutsu Master was not ignorant of Iaijutsu Focus. The same person(s) wrote both abilities and it is irrational to think they would choose to not use the term "flat-footed" in IM if they intended to remove that condition.
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The only reason a character is flat-footed before they act, logically speaking, is because they are surprised by the initialization of combat.
That's incorrect and may be the source of your interpretation. You are flat-footed in combat because someone is quicker to act than you are, not because they surprise you.
Initiative decides whose reaction was quicker, it has no nothing to do with surprise. Think of it as two drag racers at the starting line. Neither racer is "surprised" by the fact the light will turn green. But one driver will react more quickly than the other and in PFS terms, that driver has a higher initiative. The other driver is considered to be caught flat-footed by the quicker driver. Once again, "surprise" has nothing to do with it.
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I do *not* think that the ability is granting Uncanny Dodge;
The point of the Uncanny Dodge example is to illustrate that the developers know how to address the flat-footed condition when they intend for it to be addressed. It's not like being caught flat-footed is some weird concept that they don't know how to describe or target. They do. The developers are clearly capable of articulating changes to a creature being flat-footed. They did not do that with the Iaijutsu Master ability, so once again, it is not reasonable to assume they intended an outcome that they didn't articulate, but clearly could have.
It'd be one thing if the term "flat-footed" didn't exist. Or, if the term hadn't come into use when the class was written. But "flat-footed" is both known to the developers and already referenced in the ability descriptions. The developers know the Kensai is flat-footed to start combat and the explicitly chose not to talk about it past level 13.
The other thing to consider is that if Iaijutsu Master eliminated the FF'd condition in combat, many of the previous abilities would be half-worthless. Because the Kensai can still be caught FF'd at level 19, Iaijutsu and Iaijutsu Focus are still providing benefit on the rare occasion that the Kensai is caught FF'd. It is illogical for the developers to give a bunch of FF'd abilities early on and then make them completely worthless at higher levels. Of less value? Sure. Completely pointless? That's not the general format for class/archetype building.
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I would be the GM in the game in question.
In non-PFS, you don't need to come on the board to do what you want. But the way the abilities are written, Kensai's never eliminate the chance of being caught flat-footed....only surprised. Surprised=/=Flat-Footed.
you are not considered flat-footed before you act because you aren't an unaware combatant.
Incorrect. The very rules you quote explain it in black and white.
PRD Surprise wrote:
Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
emphasis added.
The critical mistake you and Rudy2 are making is linking "Surprise" with "Flat-footed". You are flat-footed in the surprise round "because you have not acted." You are flat-footed at the start of all combat because you have not acted.
"Awareness" has nothing to do with being flat-footed. Not having acted at the start of combat is what determines whether you are flat-footed.
The Kensai never avoids being flat-footed. He avoids being surprised.
I think the main source of our different intent interpretations is that I start with the assumption that writers of prestige classes are flawed in being clear with what they want to say, and even if they *could* say it in a more clear manner, doesn't mean that they will. I recognize that this approach can't be used in settings like PFS, but as a DM in home games, it has served me very well.
This, in conjunction with the fact that, by RAW, "and he is never surprised", does absolutely nothing, tells me that whomever wrote that ability intended it to do *something*. The not-flat-footed at combat start thing is the most reasonable interpretation of what that thing would be.
Secondarily, it seems to me that if flat-footedness was a condition that existed based on who was quicker to act, as opposed to surprise at action, then it would persist throughout combat, based on who was "quicker to act" than whom in any given exchange of blows. If two combatants engaged for the first time in the 5th round of combat, then one would be flat-footed against the other based on who was "quicker to act" in that exchange. I understand this is a logical argument, though, not a RAW one.
Here's the important distinction I see - if the kensai is never surprised, that can prevent the existence of a surprise round in the first place. So, for example, if everyone in the party makes their Perception roll except the kensai, the kensai is never surprised, so nobody in the party is surprised and combat begins with a regular round rather than a surprise round.
I think you'd really need to look at other abilities that involve surprise to see the difference. While surprised isn't really a status, if something were written (or will be written - these descriptions could be written vaguely enough to encompass future developments as well) that hinged on the target being surprised, then there would be a difference. The kensai iaijitsu master wouldn't be surprised, but the one who could act in the surprise round without having achieved the iaijitsu master benchmark would be even if he could still act.
Here's the important distinction I see - if the kensai is never surprised, that can prevent the existence of a surprise round in the first place. So, for example, if everyone in the party makes their Perception roll except the kensai, the kensai is never surprised, so nobody in the party is surprised and combat begins with a regular round rather than a surprise round.
I believe the above is likely correct. For example two ninja sneak up on a kensai who is alone and he fails to notice them.
Normally because 1 combatant is in aware we have surprise.
However the kensai can't be surprised. This doesn't means they can't beat him inbinitiative and catch him flat footed. It just creates the weird situation of him likely acting before people he doesn't know existed.
If the kensai had an ally that was surprised the surprise round happens as normal with the kensai getting to act.
Of course, this creates the rather strange scenario that the Kensai can often do better against the ninjas when alone, especially if they have abilities that allow them extra actions in surprise rounds :)
I think the main source of our different intent interpretations is that I start with the assumption that writers of prestige classes are flawed in being clear with what they want to say, and even if they *could* say it in a more clear manner, doesn't mean that they will.
Whether or not that is true, it is actually not the basis of our different viewpoints.
The different is that you are trying to impose a hierarchy between Surprise and FF'd that does not exist.
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This, in conjunction with the fact that, by RAW, "and he is never surprised", does absolutely nothing
Technically, that's incorrect. While the statement does not convey a specific set of mechanical modifiers, it does modify the fuzzy conditions that the Kensai can be subjected to. If the GM wants to impose some outcome based on surprise, the Kensai is immune to it. While many of us focus on mechanical/combat outcomes, the benefit of feats are not limited to strictly combat mechanics. But nevertheless, the IM ability does convey the natural 20 on init, so it's not like the ability gives you nothing in the way of combat.
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The not-flat-footed at combat start thing is the most reasonable interpretation of what that thing would be.
No, it isn't. Because Flat-footed and surprise have nothing do with one another. Does the Uncanny Dodge ability make you not Surprised? No. My being FF'd is completely independent of whether or not I am surprised. But a fact of the game is that ALL combatants start out flat-footed barring an ability to the contrary. Kensai's have no ability to the contrary. What they do get is a set of Iaijutsu skills that minimize the disadvantage of being FF'd. And it's important to understand that these benefits arise from the very fact that a Kensai can still be caught flat-footed.
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Secondarily, it seems to me that if flat-footedness was a condition that existed based on who was quicker to act, as opposed to surprise at action, then it would persist throughout combat, based on who was "quicker to act" than whom in any given exchange of blows.
Since you do not seem to fully understand the game mechanics regarding FF'd and Init, let me clarify what I said earlier as it would seem confusing:
FF'd in combat is a function of who has not yet acted. You are not flat footed because someone is quicker than you, you are flat footed because you have not acted.
Initiative is a function of who is quicker.
When you add Init and the FF'd game mechanics, that means that when ever you have two or more combatants, any who have not acted will be flat-footed versus those who act more quickly (barring things like Uncanny Dodge).
There is nothing in the Kensai class description which says the class is not Flat-Footed at the start of combat. There is nothing that even suggests this not the case. Several abilities ONLY benefit the Kensai when he is flat-footed.
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If two combatants engaged for the first time in the 5th round of combat, then one would be flat-footed against the other based on who was "quicker to act" in that exchange.
No. You are-flat footed because you have not acted. Because someone has higher init (reacted more quickly than you were in the encounter) you are still FF'd while they act.
Apologies, my explanation in the previous post probably confused the issue by making it sound like the FF'd condition is imposed by one creature on another. It is not. Even if you are the person with the highest Init, you are FF'd to start...it's just that nobody else moves before you, so you "act" and remove your FF'd condition before anyone else.
I understand the details ]of the mechanics, though I appreciate your time in going into detail. As far as my home games are concerned, I am more concerned with the logic of it. *Logically*, not mechanically, if someone is flat-footed *because they haven't acted*, then acting against person A should not remove the penalties of being flat-footed against person B.
I fully understand that flat-footed is not a condition that applies against particular characters; what I am saying is, in order to make that logically consistent, it is necessary for me at least to interpret the flat-footed condition as of arising out of a general unpreparedness at the start of combat, rather than arising out of a simple lack of action. Again, because if it was out of a simple lack of action, there's no logical reason to think that acting against one person would protect you against the actions of another.
Again, because if it was out of a simple lack of action, there's no logical reason to think that acting against one person would protect you against the actions of another.
The game is filled with things that don't make sense in the real world. The "no dex-modifier penalty" is completely ridiculous in terms of logic. I won't even go into it. The game isn't going to make logical sense with the real world because it's a game which incorporates fantasy. What you should understand or can choose to have faith in, is that the game is the way it is because the developers made an artistic choice which creates the experience they want to create. One small part of the experience is that Kensai warriors can still be caught flat-footed at level 20. You may not like that part of the painting. So be it. I certainly can't tell you what is more enjoyable for you. As a GM I try to take the game as written and avoid house-rules. For me, house rules undermine the game. I recognize I'm probably in the minority as a GM
Nevertheless, the rules are clear and unambiguous about how the Kensai ability works at least with regards to being FF'd. If you want to argue what makes sense in the real world, this isn't really the forum for it.
There isn't any... the difference is in what you left out... in that at 19th level, the Kensai no longer rolls for initiative, because it's always assumed to be a 20.
So you believe the text "and he is never surprised" is completely superfluous to the ability?
It's flavor text to introduce the meat of the ability. The kensai is effectively never surprised because he can act in the surprise round and his initative die roll is now automatically 20. You really can't get better than that. Especially since on top of what is no doubt a good dexterity, possibly the Improved Initiative feat, the Kenasi is applying his Intelligence modifier as well.
You don't just consider the ability on it's own... it's everything that came before it that adds up.
This is absolutely wrong. There is no guarantee at all that he's going to go first.
You can get lots better than that, the most obvious example being a diviner, who automatically rolls a 20 *and* has a +10 additional modifier to initiative. Unless your Kensai has a +10 int modifier, he's not necessarily beating the diviner.
So I don't think it's true at all that the always rolls a 20 counts as "can never be surprised".
Technically, that's incorrect. While the statement does not convey a specific set of mechanical modifiers, it does modify the fuzzy conditions that the Kensai can be subjected to. If the GM wants to impose some outcome based on surprise, the Kensai is immune to it. While many of us focus on mechanical/combat outcomes, the benefit of feats are not limited to strictly combat mechanics. But nevertheless, the IM ability does convey the natural 20 on init, so it's not like the ability gives you nothing in the way of combat.
Are you saying based on the text the Kensai can no longer be surprised out of combat? So if the character's best friend betrays him, and he's a level 19 kensai, he has to be like, "I totally knew that would happen. No big surprise. I'm a kensai. Come on."
It would be really weird if that was remotely the intention of this language. Though admittedly, I can think of no apparently rules-based application of the text, but there's no reason to try to shoehorn something weird into it.
There isn't any... the difference is in what you left out... in that at 19th level, the Kensai no longer rolls for initiative, because it's always assumed to be a 20.
So you believe the text "and he is never surprised" is completely superfluous to the ability?
It's flavor text to introduce the meat of the ability. The kensai is effectively never surprised because he can act in the surprise round and his initative die roll is now automatically 20. You really can't get better than that. Especially since on top of what is no doubt a good dexterity, possibly the Improved Initiative feat, the Kenasi is applying his Intelligence modifier as well.
You don't just consider the ability on it's own... it's everything that came before it that adds up.
This is absolutely wrong. There is no guarantee at all that he's going to go first.
You can get lots better than that, the most obvious example being a diviner, who automatically rolls a 20 *and* has a +10 additional modifier to initiative. Unless your Kensai has a +10 int modifier, he's not necessarily beating a diviner.
So I don't think it's true at all that the always rolls a 20 counts as "can never be surprised".
Not only can a level 20 kensai have a 10+ int modifier, he's much more likely to be fully invested in dexterity than the diviner.
Are you saying based on the text the Kensai can no longer be surprised out of combat?
I'm saying that the the rules can be used as fuzzy logic.
Would I extend the "never surprised" to include knowledge of information? No. My suggestion was meant to include any non-combat actions i.e. things where the GM isn't rolling init, but players are still being denied or granted actions.
I'll openly admit that abilities that can't be linked to some mechanical modifier inhabit the lands of of winds and ghosts because you're at the mercy of the GM to apply a modifier when none is explicitly indicated.
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